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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? Post Reply Post New Topic
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 12:12pm
CAringheart,
now I am really wondering if your understanding is that much clogged?
We are not talking about killings, we are talking about commands to unjustifiable killings. Please tell me first if you can differentiate between the two, it is very important that you do that first.
Love,
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 12:44pm
Hi Webber,

Quote: Yes, Titus was successful in his ministry and well thought of by Paul. Paul’s epistles to Titus contained many good teachings.
Glad you added, I must confess I got stuck up on the NIV mistranslation and missed the true reason Titus was written.

Response: --- Yes, we need to keep to the true translations. We don’t need to know Hebrew, Greek, or Latin, even though they were the languages posted on the cross (which proves that these languages were common at that time). --- It is good to have a friend or Pastor who does know some languages who can be a source of info when needed. --- Sometimes it is just the choice of words of the translators.

As I said, I usually use the New King James, but I refer to many different ones at times for comparison.
I know some others who are KJV only, and I have no problem with them except when they start comparing and criticizing the New KJ.
Then I ask a simple question. “What does the word ‘holpen’ mean?”
There is a verse in the KJV that says, “He hath holpen His servant Israel.”

I noticed your comment, and I agree on the trinity doctrine being ‘faulty,’ and I have mentioned it at different times.

I have been asked about 1 John 5:7 on this topic so I will check it soon also.


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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by Caringheart





8:<a name="17">17<a name="17"></a> <span>Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah
slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah
threw</span>, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him.
 
So while you lay an argument against what the Israelites did when they entered Canaan, your very own scriptures say it is only allah using the hands of his people to do these things.
 
Do you see the problem in your own scriptures as you seem to find a problem with the torah?



iN QURAN, FIGHTING IS COMMANDED ONLY IN SELF DEFENCE, AND ONLY AS LONG AS THE AGGRESSORS CONTINUE TO FIGHT. if the attackers cease to fight/surrender, you should stop fighting. prisoners of war are to be ransomed or set free.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 08 January 2013 at 1:15pm
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2013 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart

8:17 Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him.
 
So while you lay an argument against what the Israelites did when they entered Canaan, your very own scriptures say it is only allah using the hands of his people to do these things.
 
Do you see the problem in your own scriptures as you seem to find a problem with the torah?
 
There is no problem actually as women and children were not killed. Only the combatants.
 
They were not killed?  Are you quite sure?  and if the women and children were not killed they were taken as slaves and the women were raped.  Is that better?  Is that approved by allah?
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2013 at 8:22am
Hi Islam,

There was one last question you posted that I want to respond to on this topic.
Quote: Your appeal to this verse (1 John 5:7) is bizarre given that it clearly refers to the trinitarian doctrine. Of course, appealing to this verse in defense of the trinity is in itself a problem given that no Greek manuscripts have this wording.

Response: --- (Not quite right.) --- The context of 1 John 5:7 begins in verse 6, and it refers to an alternate type of body that Jesus could have come in:
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

6 --- Had Jesus come as an angel, like Gabriel, He could have talked to men as Gabriel did, He could have taught the disciples, He could have healed the sick and raised the dead and done all the miracles. --- He could have done everything except die. --- So rather than the alternate body called. --- a ‘water body’ (which would be one with low water content to adjust to gravity at near ‘zero weight,’ as the angels seem to have that can appear, or expand and disappear, even as Jesus did after His body was drained of blood and water, and after He was resurrected, He could appear or disappear with the disciples).
--- So rather than coming as an ‘angel like’ being, He came by water and blood, in a natural human body. --- And the Spirit bears witness that this is true, whether we believe it or not.

7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; --- (the three who were there in the beginning, Genesis 1:1, God, the Creator and Father of all. --- And His Spirit that hovered over the waters and brought life in them, Genesis 1:2 . --- And the Word through whom all things were created when God said, “Let there BE.” Genesis 1:3

--- And it was written previously by John, in John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
--- This is the mystery of God, --- that the Holy Spirit and the Word (Logos) could be called Servants or Manifestations of God Himself, yet are one with Him, --- and be CALLED God, as God is one.

--- Some Church Father in the second century who was explaining this relationship made the comparison of the Word and the Holy Spirit as being the two arms of God. --- As in our body the intellect determines or decides, --- then the arms, as willing servants, perform the action.
--- (That is quite a good analogy and this was from long before the ‘faulty’ trinity doctrine was introduced in the Roman Church in 325 AD.)
The Quran verifies this in Surah 4:171, where it says, Jesus was the Messenger on earth of the Three, --- God, --- and His Word, (which He conveyed into Mary), --- and a Spirit from Him (God). --- And the verse says, --- “BUT DON’T SAY THREE” --- God is only One God. --- Is that not the same as John said?

7. While you might think verse 7 supports the ‘trinitarians,’ --- IT DOES NOT.
They put Jesus, the Son, in place of the Word, which is their own distortion, --- because the Word, from God, indwelt the human body of Jesus, and God was Manifested through Jesus. --- As I have said, Jesus had a human body, but Divine Spirit from God.

The Greek manuscripts used in the Douay and King James versions have the verses intact. This proves that the Latin Vulgate contained the full verses, and the Greek manuscripts used for the King James as well.

All older Bibles include the verses and make no mention of any alternate wording. The New King James makes mention of the other manuscript in a footnote, --- but the NIV has it this way in 1 John 5:
6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

--- And this is from the main manuscripts --- in the New King James:
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

It is obvious that the authorized Greek Manuscripts that were used for the Canon of Scripture in about 365 AD had the verses already numbered before that, so before the Latin Vulgate, so it is quite evident that verse 7 in the NIV is not a sentence, is it?
--- (However, if anyone doesn’t want to read it because they don’t understand its verification in Scripture, they don’t have to. --- But the NIV is a scholarly version and in most cases is compatible, but in some cases is ‘out on its own limb.’)

But the proof for Muslims should be Surah 4:171, which ‘confirms’ verse 7 by saying --- That Jesus Christ was the Messenger --- ‘of God, His Word, and His Spirit.’ --- “BUT DON’T SAY THREE --- GOD IS ONLY ONE GOD.’
--- And notice: --- Neither in 1 John nor the Quran, is Jesus one of the Three.


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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2013 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Caringheart





8:<a name="17">17<a name="17"></a> <span>Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah
slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah
threw</span>, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him.
 
So while you lay an argument against what the Israelites did when they entered Canaan, your very own scriptures say it is only allah using the hands of his people to do these things.
 
Do you see the problem in your own scriptures as you seem to find a problem with the torah?


 
There is no problem actually as women and children were not killed. Only the combatants.

 
They were not killed?  Are you quite sure?  and if the women and children were not killed they were taken as slaves and the women were raped.  Is that better?  Is that approved by allah?


CArinheart,
you are missing the point. It is about injustice which seems to have come as a command from God. And that's the issue. Of course, what we are saying is that such an order to kill all even babies and animals and trees cannot come from God, who is Just and Loving. Can your head process that?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Webber
 
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Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:20pm
I borrowed this btw.
 
I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2013 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by Webber



I borrowed this btw.
 
I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.


Do these figures have life?
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