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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2012 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Islam,

Quote: As I have said, only God is Lord and Savior, whereas you have been saying that you have taken Jesus as your "lord and savior". That is shirk. It is blasphemy and a clear violation of the 1st commandment. For you to try to teach me about salvation is like a mechanic teaching a doctor about medicine. It just won't work.

Response: --- I agree with your last line. --- I have heard that Muslims have their own plan of salvation through their ‘good works,’ --- even though in the Quran it puts Faith first, just like it does in the NT. --- If you look at various verses you will see that it says, “Those who BELIEVE and do good works, will receive the reward.” --- The pattern is, Faith first, which leads to obedience, --- which leads to doing God’s will, and doing His ‘Good works’.

However, on an interfaith Forum I believe it is the idea for us to express what we believe, so that we each may understand the other a little better.

--- When you and others asked me, “Who are you?” or “What are you?” or “Are you a Unitarian?” or “Are you a Jehovah’s Witness?” --- I answered by saying, “I don’t usually talk about myself, but since you asked ---“.
--- So I told you.

Now you have shown a type of ‘exclusivism’ by saying “Only God is Lord, --- None of the disciples called Jesus Lord.”

--- So I checked the Gospels for a list of those who called Jesus Lord, --- and that doesn’t include the times that He is called ‘The Lord Jesus,’ or ‘The Lord Jesus Christ.’ --- You see, Lord also means ‘Master.’
In the New King James Version, and some others, --- if it is written ‘lord’ it refers to an earthly ‘master.’ --- If it is written ‘Lord’ it refers to Jesus. --- If it is written ‘LORD’ it refers to God.

And Jesus said, “Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not the things I say?”
And again He said, “You call me Lord, and so I am.”
And again he said, “In that day many will come to Me and say Lord, Lord, haven’t we done this in your name --- and that in your name?” --- And I will say, Depart from Me, I never knew you.”

Again He said, “Not everyone who says to Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of MY Father in heaven.”

Now here is the partial list in the Gospels where the speaker called Jesus “Lord.”
Matthew 7:21-22; 8:2, 6, 8, 21, 25; --- 9:28; --- 12:1, 8; --- 13:51; --- 14:28, 30; --- 15:22, 25, 27; --- 16:22; --- 17:15; --- 18:21; --- 20:30, 31, 33; --- 21:3; --- 24:42; --- 25:11, 37, 44; --- 26;22; --- 28:6
Mark 9:24; --- 11:3; --- 16:19, 20. --- (Many more in Mark are the same as in Matthew.)
Luke 1:43, 45; --- 2:11; --- 5:8, 17; --- 6:5, 46; --- 7:6; --- 9:54, 57, 59, 61; --- 10:17, 40; --- 11:1, --- 12:41; --- 13:23; --- 17:5, 37; --- 18:41; --- 19:8; --- 22:33, 38, 49; --- 23:42.
John 6:34, 68; --- 8:11; --- 9:36, 38; ---11:3, 12, 21, 27, 32, 34, 39; --- 13:6, 9, 13, 25, 36, 37; --- 14:5, 8, 22; --- 20:13, 18, 20, 25, 29; --- 21:7, 12, 15, 16, 17, 20; --- 21:21.

How little you know about the Gospels which the angel Gabriel confirmed.       


Placid



Placid,
so are you saying that by calling someone Lord means ____? can you fill that out please.
Also, was Jesus the only one addressed as Lord in the Bible?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2012 at 11:38am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Islam,

I notice you didn't comment on the Poem that someone wrote about the tragedy of the 20 children, and how God takes care of little ones under the age of accountability.

This is what we believe from the Scriptures although the details are unknown, --- but this answers the question from Post 1.

I was going to ask you about God's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah which is written in both Genesis and the Quran. --- Did God not destroy all the children who otherwise, would have grown up like their degraded and immoral parents?

But rather, God removed this blemish on the land and would save the innocent children who were not of the age of accountability, --- as well as any true believers.

Is that not God's justice --- and His right to do?


(We eill check Titus 2:13 next.)


What "poem" are you referring to?

Are you suggesting that the horrific massacre of those children is somehow a "blessing"?  Should we have more of these "blessings" then?  Should the psychotic murderer who committed those crimes be hailed instead of rightfully condemned? 

As I have said on numerous occasions, what God does is not for us to question.  When He destroyed many nations, He did it Himself.  He did not ask a human army to go in and massacre everyone.  Therefore, to compare the Israelite genocide to God's destruction of Sodom and Gammorah is absurd.

I am utterly shocked at how far you people will go to make excuses and justify the slaughter of children.  It makes me sick to my stomach. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2012 at 1:18pm
Hi Hasan

Quote: Placid,
so are you saying that by calling someone Lord means ____? can you fill that out please.
Also, was Jesus the only one addressed as Lord in the Bible?
Hasan

Response: --- If you are a servant or slave to someone on earth, he is your lord or master (small l, and small h).
Calling Jesus ‘Lord’ means that you are submitting unto Him as a servant or slave, therefore you call (only) Jesus Lord. --- Lord means Master, and Jesus,the Christ is the only one that came from God as Messiah, and Savior.--- (Jesus means Savior, Christ means Messiah

So we are servants or slaves, to Christ, just as Jesus is the Servant or Slave, to God.

It was only Jesus in the Gospels that said to the people “Follow Me.”
--- Paul said in one of his letters to a Church, “Follow me as I follow Christ.”

In Surah 3:50 it says:
“I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

There you have it --- Jesus said “Obey Me (as your Lord and Master), --- as I obey God (as My Lord and Master).”
--- And it says plainly in the Quran, --- “This is a Way that is straight.

Notice that there is a capital S, on Sign, and a capital W, on Way.


Placid


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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 23 December 2012 at 2:53pm
Hi Islam,

Quote: As I have said on numerous occasions, what God does is not for us to question. When He destroyed many nations, He did it Himself. He did not ask a human army to go in and massacre everyone. Therefore, to compare the Israelite genocide to God's destruction of Sodom and Gammorah is absurd.

Response: --- In the Scriptures from 1 Samuel 7, back on page 9, I was making the point that when God dealt with a problem, He did it His way. --- When the fearful army of Israel were called to go against the invading armies of the Philistines, they called on God, who was their only hope. --- While you are right, that the Israelites fought against, and defeated the armies of the Philistines, and chased them back to their own land, they didn’t bother Israel again, as it says in 1 Samuel 7:   
13 So the Philistines were subdued, and they did not come anymore into the territory of Israel. And the hand of the Lord was against the Philistines all the days of Samuel.
14 Then the cities which the Philistines had taken from Israel were restored to Israel, from Ekron to Gath; and Israel recovered its territory from the hands of the Philistines.
--- THAT WAS GOD’S WAY.

But some years later, when the people again rejected God, and said in 1 Samuel 8:
5 “Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”
--- Samuel objected and cried out to the Lord, but the Lord responded:
7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.”
--- So, they chose themselves an earthly king, whose name was Saul.

Do you remember what the verses in Post 1 said, in 1 Samuel 8:
1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.

--- You are ignoring the fact that GOD GAVE THE INSTRUCTIONS to destroy the Amalekites completely.
--- And since they had chosen an earthly king, then they have to use their king and their armies without the power and guidance of God.
THAT’S MAN’S WAY.

Had God done it, He might have destroyed them in one of the following ways:
11:82 So when Our commandment came to pass We overthrew (that township) and rained upon it stones of clay, one after another,
15:74 And We utterly confounded them, and We rained upon them stones of heated clay.
29:40 So We took each one in his sin; of them was he on whom We sent a hurricane, and of them was he who was overtaken by the (Awful) Cry, and of them was he whom We caused the earth to swallow, and of them was he whom We drowned. It was not for Allah to wrong them, but they wronged themselves.
54:34 Lo! We sent a storm of stones upon them (all) save the family of Lot, whom We rescued in the last watch of the night,

--- The point is that all of the children would still be put to death, --- but I said that God takes the children unto Himself who die an untimely death, before they reach the age of accountability.
--- I don’t think you have an argument against that, do you?

And I think Mahdi would understand from the answers given in the first posts, that since there was no genocide by Christians in the NT, Christians don’t kill babies or sucklings.


Placid

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 1:22pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Placid

--- You are ignoring the fact that GOD GAVE THE INSTRUCTIONS to destroy the Amalekites completely.
--- And since they had chosen an earthly king, then they have to use their king and their armies without the power and guidance of God.
THAT’S MAN’S WAY.


No, the Bible claims that "God gave the instructions".  That does not mean that God actually gave those instructions. 

Also, as I have pointed out several times already, and which you seem to want to ignore, the Israelites slaughtered not just the Amalekites, but other nations as well.  This bloody tradition of committing genocide started well before Saul.  It started with Moses (pbuh) and continued with his successors.  This is what the Bible would have us believe, anyway. 

Originally posted by Placid

--- The point is that all of the children would still be put to death, --- but I said that God takes the children unto Himself who die an untimely death, before they reach the age of accountability.
--- I don’t think you have an argument against that, do you?


Using this ridiculous logic, then every child should be killed.  There shouldn't even be anyone alive on earth.  Mankind should just save itself by killing everyone in their childhood.  Do you accept this plan of salvation? 

As I said, killing children is monstrous, no matter what excuse you can conjure up.  To justify it by saying that "well the children are with God" is sickening.  There are many children starving and dying all around the world.  Do you think that it is better to just let all these children die, since it would probably spare most of them eternal damnation? 

By the way, you have yet to explain why Paul referred to Jesus (pbuh) as God in his letter to Titus.


Edited by islamispeace - 24 December 2012 at 1:23pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2012 at 7:07am
Hi Islam,

Quote: Using this ridiculous logic, then every child should be killed.

Response: --- Then why are you using it?
It is interesting that after you asked me ‘what I was?’ --- and I told you, you referred to me as being crazy, then you flood every post with words, to try and distort the subject.

--- Then on Page 12, when I quoted from Surah 3:55 that God gives the followers of Jesus, the assurance of salvation, you responded with this statement:
“Anyone can give you "assurance". That doesn't mean it is true. Just because your scripture tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.”
So you are saying, --- Though GOD SAID IT, --- in the Quran, --- it doesn’t make it true. --- You go on to say:
Quote: Just because your scripture (In the Quran) tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so. ---

--- Which indicates that you don’t believe what God says in the Quran any more than you believe what God said in the OT.

--- Then you say I am breaking the first Commandment by following what Jesus taught, that we should make Him Lord of our lives.

Then you say, “This is shirk from Islam's point of view. By taking Jesus as your "lord and savior", you are committing a grave sin, because only God is "Lord and Savior." ---
--- Because you don’t understand it, you made the erroneous statement that no one called Jesus Lord, --- so I gave some 80 references where the disciples and others addressed Jesus as Lord.
--- Then, after rejecting it again you say, “I know the Gospels well, and I was already well aware of the verses you referred to.”
--- (So if you knew them, you contradict yourself in arguing about them.)

Then on Page 14 you used your four letter word, meaning condemn, which is a ‘spiritual’ word, but used in the wrong connotation, because you wouldn’t say,
“You are ‘condemned’ right that this is exclusivism.” ------ Does this mean that simple blasphemy can occur readily in your conversation?

You have stretched this topic out for 15 Pages, --- and on Page 15, you distort what I say and say, ‘it makes you sick to your stomach.’

--- As I look in the Forum Guidelines, I read this in 3 and 4:
3. A generally pleasant demeanor and cordiality in language is requested during discussions.   
4. When discussing issues dealing with Islam, please support your comments with the Quran or Sunnah
--- I always give references from the Bible and the Quran, but you seem to go mostly with your own opinion, which is always negative to the Scriptures.

I will answer the question on Titus with some Scriptures, --- which you will naturally ridicule, --- and then I will use a verse from Titus to wrap this all up.


Placid

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2012 at 1:50pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Placid

Response: --- Then why are you using it?


I am not using it.  I was criticizing your ridiculous excuse-making that the slaughter of Amalekite children was okay because it saved the children from growing up and going to Hell.  The point I was making is that if that was the excuse, then why not continue it in modern times?  Why not just save everyone by killing them as children?  You know it makes no sense.  So then why are you using it as an excuse for the Israelite slaughter of Amalekite children? 

Originally posted by Placid

It is interesting that after you asked me ‘what I was?’ --- and I told you, you referred to me as being crazy, then you flood every post with words, to try and distort the subject.


When did I call you "crazy"?  You are the one distorting the subject.  We were talking about the Israelite slaughter of innocent children and you brought the Quran into the subject by claiming that it agrees with the Bible.  I entertained your claims, even though they had nothing to do with the topic...and you accuse me of "distorting the topic"?  Oh please...

Originally posted by Placid

--- Then on Page 12, when I quoted from Surah 3:55 that God gives the followers of Jesus, the assurance of salvation, you responded with this statement:
“Anyone can give you "assurance". That doesn't mean it is true. Just because your scripture tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.”
So you are saying, --- Though GOD SAID IT, --- in the Quran, --- it doesn’t make it true. --- You go on to say:
Quote: Just because your scripture (In the Quran) tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so. ---

--- Which indicates that you don’t believe what God says in the Quran any more than you believe what God said in the OT.


Obviously, you don't read my responses carefully and you jump to conclusions.

I was responding to your question "so do you have the assurance of eternal life, as the Scriptures say we can have?"  Here was my response:

"Anyone can give you "assurance".  That doesn't mean it is true.  Just because your scripture tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.

To answer your question, I am fully secure in my faith.  The Quran and Sunnah promise salvation for those who believe that "there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is messenger."  This declaration of faith will be the saving grace for all who sincerely believe it."

By "your scripture", I was referring to the Bible's promise of salvation to those who accept Jesus as their "lord and savior".  Then, I stated that that the Quran and Sunnah promise salvation to all who accept the Shahada.  I think it is clear that you are one distorting my responses.

Originally posted by Placid

--- Then you say I am breaking the first Commandment by following what Jesus taught, that we should make Him Lord of our lives.


And you are.  You have yet to refute this.  Is it not a violation of the 1st Commandment to make Jesus "lord of your lives"?  Shocked

Isn't it God who is supposed to be "Lord of our lives"?  Who is Jesus (pbuh) compared to God?  He is nothing.  He is as dust compared to the Lord of all Creation.

Originally posted by Placid

Then you say, “This is shirk from Islam's point of view. By taking Jesus as your "lord and savior", you are committing a grave sin, because only God is "Lord and Savior." ---
--- Because you don’t understand it, you made the erroneous statement that no one called Jesus Lord, --- so I gave some 80 references where the disciples and others addressed Jesus as Lord.
--- Then, after rejecting it again you say, “I know the Gospels well, and I was already well aware of the verses you referred to.”
--- (So if you knew them, you contradict yourself in arguing about them.)


Your childish conclusions are not helping this discussion.  By your own admission, you said that you accept Jesus as your "lord and savior"  When I questioned this, you pointed to the New Testament and claimed that Jesus was referred to as "lord" not "LORD".  But as I pointed out, you still take Jesus as your "lord AND savior".  I stated that only God is our savior.  You conveniently ignored this. 

Moreover, you are not doing much to show that you are not committing shirk.  Just above you said that you have made Jesus "lord of your life".  Is this not shirk?  Is this not a violation of the 1st Commandment?  I think so!

Originally posted by Placid

Then on Page 14 you used your four letter word, meaning condemn, which is a ‘spiritual’ word, but used in the wrong connotation, because you wouldn’t say,
“You are ‘condemned’ right that this is exclusivism.” ------ Does this mean that simple blasphemy can occur readily in your conversation?


LOL Oh come on Placid.  Are you not aware that the word "damn" had different meanings?  It is also:

"Used for emphasis, esp. to express anger or frustration: "turn that damn thing off!"; "don't be so damn silly!"." [1]

I was emphasizing the "exclusivity" (as you referred to it) of God being the only "Lord and Savior".  Obviously, you seem to disagree, which only proves further that you are committing shirk and violating the 1st Commandment.  Here is your final chance to prove that you are not committing shirk.  Answer the following with a "yes" or "no":

Is God the only Lord and Savior of mankind?

Originally posted by Placid

You have stretched this topic out for 15 Pages, --- and on Page 15, you distort what I say and say, ‘it makes you sick to your stomach.’


I am simply being honest, which is what I thought you were.  I find the excuse-making for the Israelite slaughter of children to be sickening.  If you don't like it, that's your problem. 

Originally posted by Placid

--- As I look in the Forum Guidelines, I read this in 3 and 4:
3. A generally pleasant demeanor and cordiality in language is requested during discussions.   
4. When discussing issues dealing with Islam, please support your comments with the Quran or Sunnah
--- I always give references from the Bible and the Quran, but you seem to go mostly with your own opinion, which is always negative to the Scriptures.


You selectively quote the Quran, as do most Christians who use the argument that the Quran upholds the Bible.  I have answered all of your appeals to the Quran and I showed that you were either misquoting the Quran or quoting out of context. 

Originally posted by Placid

I will answer the question on Titus with some Scriptures, --- which you will naturally ridicule, --- and then I will use a verse from Titus to wrap this all up.


I don't know what you are waiting for.  You have posted a few times since I asked the question and have yet to respond. 

Contrary to your claim, I only "ridicule" nonsensical statements which are devoid of any facts.  For example, I "ridiculed" your excuse-making of the Israelite slaughter (which is the topic of this thread) as being sickening and monstrous, because that is how I regard the killing of children...as sickening and monstrous.  You may be fine with making excuses for the Biblical claims, but I am not.  That is why I believe the Bible is not the word of God.  The Quran and Sunnah make this clear, no matter how much you may try to misquote them.  
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 28 December 2012 at 7:16am
placid said

Hi Islam,

Quote: Using this ridiculous logic, then every child should be killed.

Response: --- Then why are you using it?

placid , you are the one using that line of reasoning
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