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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? Post Reply Post New Topic
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 12:38pm
Placid,
you wrote above:

"There is a hint that Muhammad was teaching about Jesus, because Jesus was the Sign given in Surah 3, where he said:
50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

--- You see, these are the truths that Christians follow. --- Jesus was the Sign from the prophecy in Isaiah, --- This was the Sign fulfilled in Matthew that Jesus would be born of a virgin. "

And that is true, we believe that, the problem comes when some who also claim to be Christians make Jesus, who was a sign for mankind as he was born to a virgin woman, God. or begotten son of God. That is in complete contrast to the qualities of God. A true beleiver can never say that a humble servant of God was God.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 15 December 2012 at 12:41pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 2:58pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Bunter

Here are just some of your sarcastic words: thin-skinned, dude, too dense to understand, Childish finger pointing, ignorant, grow up, lack common sense etc. On the one hand you tell us Allah is beneficent and tell stories of Mohammed's magnanimity and then effectively repudiate it with you attitude and words.


LOL You have got to be one of the touchiest people I have ever met.  What's wrong with using a little humor and sarcasm in a conversation?  Is it my fault that you get insulted so easily? 

Originally posted by Bunter

If we look at the passage in 1 Samuel 15 and the first few verses and we know this is history whether we like it or not.


No, this is your own version of "history".  Also, if it is indeed authentic history, it remains to be proven whether the Israelites just killed everyone because they wanted to and could OR whether they were only following God's command. 

It is only as "historical" as Hitler's claim that he was chosen to do the work of "Divine Providence".  We know that Hitler killed millions of people but we don't actually buy his claim that he was only doing God's work, do we?

Originally posted by Bunter

So it maybe that God ordains punishment for the Amalekites who were known to be exceedingly wicked. We also know from this passage that Saul had been rejected by God as King because of his disobedience - that is more or less the context plus one has to remember how the Amalekites treated the Israelites when they left Egypt. Now I feel very unhappy with this story as I feel unhappy with any similar thing, I feel unhappy that according to the Quran people will suffer the worst possible pain for all eternity - do you feel the same or do you think unbelievers get what they deserve since they are guilty and punishment is their due according to you.


You continue to make excuses and change the subject despite feeling "unhappy" without realizing that you are excusing the KILLING OF BABIES

I feel sad that all unbelievers will go to Hell, as BOTH the Quran and Bible state, because I would rather they all go to Paradise, but I do not feel sad that only those who deserve this punishment will go there.  It is absolutely absurd to compare this to the killings of the innocent, let alone of babies.

Originally posted by Bunter

As I have said before, both Jews and Christians regard passages like this as 's*****p', meaning we agree that they happened but cannot understand exactly why. You say that this verse shows that the Bible is not the word of God but then you disregard other verse that tell of love and compassion - the issue is that why would anyone put in such verses if it were not true? Its obvious to any one these verses are difficult and uncomfortable and if one wants to tamper with the text there is every reason to leave them out.


Obviously, the people who put these verses into the text could have done so for many reasons, including to scare their enemies.  I don't know the exact reason and it is absurd of you to ask what was going on in the minds of people who lived thousands of years ago. 

What you said above is actually why I believe the Bible is not God's word.  God's word does not contain inconsistencies.  The Bible makes God command the slaughter of the innocent in one place and then states that God is "loving" and "compassionate" in another.  How can a "loving" and "compassionate" God command the slaughter of babies?  The only answer you can give is "we don't know why", when I would think the obvious answer would be "He wouldn't".

Originally posted by Bunter

You say that everyone has the chance to 'turn things around' but what about those who have never heard the message of salvation from the BIble or Quran, should they suffer enterally simply because they never heard? Why does God allow babies to die at all?


If you knew even a little about Islam, you would know the answer to that question already.  As Sheik Salman al-Oadah of "IslamToday.com" states:

"...they will be tested in the Hereafter. Allah will send them a messenger in the Hereafter. Whoever obeys the Messenger will enter Paradise and whoever disobeys him will go to Hell. Therefore, some of the people who did not receive the call to Islam will go to Paradise and some will go to Hell, depending on the outcome of this test." [1]
 
He also quotes the Quran and Sunnah which state that Allah (swt) only punishes those who have heard the message and rejected it, as in the following:

"Nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).” [Sűrah al-Isrâ’: 15]

Originally posted by Bunter

Only Muslims it seems cry Allah Akba when they kill even indiscriminately - why is that? Why is it that Muslim will say it is better to die for Allah when Moses in Deuteronomy 30:19 Says "I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and curses; therefore choose life, that your descendants may live."
 

Changing the subject again?  What does the fact that some "Muslims" invoke Allah (swt) when they kill "even indiscriminately" have to do with the Bible's claim that the Israelites killed babies at the behest of God?  How desperate can you get?

Also, did you know that in the Shabra and Shatila massacres (have you even heard of them?), the Christian Lebanese militias carved crosses into the bodies of their Palestinian Muslim victims [2]?

Or did you know that an Israeli rabbi recently stated that it is allowed for Israeli soldiers to kill Palestinian children [3]

We can go on and on about people misusing religion but that is not the issue here, right?  Or is it?   

Originally posted by Bunter

But you are trying to prove it by picking ONLY verses or sections that suit your case, you are cherry picking and that is hardly and honest assessment is it?
 

An "honest assessment"?  When did I say that the Bible is entirely the work of man?  I never said that.  I believe the Bible contains some truths that are from God, but I also believe that much of it is the result of man-made corruptions.  One such corruption is the Bible's claim that God commanded the Israelites to kill babies.  It is precisely these types of verses which prove that the Bible is not God's word.  God's word would not contain such monstrous verses.  That is why I "cherry pick" these verses.  It is because they prove that the Bible is the word of man, not God. 

Originally posted by Bunter

I can go through the Quran and just pick verses I don't like and claim therefore it cannot be from God. For example, does the Quran call you to die for Allah, if so I rejects it because God calls us to life, the Quran tells you that Muslims are the best of all people, this is obvious;y untrue so I rejects the Quran, the Quran tells of unimaginable suffering for unbelievers so I reject it and so on.


LOL The only problem is that you are comparing apples to oranges!  There is a big difference in misquoting the Quran (which you do pretty well) or not "liking" certain things about the Quran such as people suffering in Hell for eternity for what they consciously did and correctly quoting the Bible and not liking things like saying God commanded the killing of babies

Also, as I said, the Bible also says that all unbelievers will go to Hell.  I showed the proof.  But unlike your Bible, the Quran does not say that God commanded the killing of babies. 

Originally posted by Bunter

Your argument for up to four wives and concubines is hopeless. Sure it is generally said that there are more women that men but it is also know that accurate figures are almost impossible to get. In any case there is certainly not 4 times as many women plus neither then Quran or hadith offer that nonsense as a reason. It is also in my view to treat all your wives equally, the very idea that I would leave my wife for another I find anathema. You keep mentioning common sense but do you know what it means? Its fine for everyday things like crossing the road but beyond that its very unreliable and often it only means that your ego give you an authority that is totally unwarranted. Try reading Duncan Watts's book "Everything is Obvious" and see what it really amounts to.


Regardless of your personal opinions, how is the Quran's permission to marry up to 4 wives similar to the Bible's claim that God allowed infanticide?  Whose argument is really "hopeless"? 

I think most people would agree that killing children is evil.  They would base that on their common sense.  In fact, just yesterday, some monstrous psycho burst into a school in the state of Connecticut and gunned down 20 children and 7 adults before killing himself [4].  Any sane person would rightfully call this act a monstrous crime.  I am sure you agree.  What would they be basing that on?  Is it not common sense?  If not common sense, then what?  Please do tell.

Originally posted by Bunter

Interesting, tell me is there ANYTHING in Islam or its history you would be ashamed of or sad about? For example, you mentioned your prophet about but he is also mention in about 40 assassinations, killings he approved of because for example they insulted him?
 

LOL See, with these kinds of ignorant rants, you expose yourself as a biased individual!  Where did you get this information from?  Was it an Islamic source or was it some brainless anti-Muslim website run by a pseudo-scholar with no knowledge of Islam?  Do tell. 

Perhaps you can provide examples of these "assassinations".  Only then can I attempt to comment on them.   

By the way, you still have not answered my question:

Are you pro-life or pro-choice?


Edited by islamispeace - 15 December 2012 at 4:19pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 3:06pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace


It extends out of love for God.  God wants us to give in charity.  That is enough for us.  Yes, helping our enemies and being kind to them is also recommended.  A perfect example of that is in how the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) pardoned the Jewish woman who served him a poisoned lamb or how he exonerated the people of Mecca (those who had persecuted him and his followers for close to 20 years) when he conquered the city in a blood-less battle.  Even when he fought against his enemies, he generally showed them mercy...unlike the Israelites who were told to kill everyone off (babies included). 


What do you think it would take to put an end to the prejudice between muslims and Jews?


I think the resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict would go a long way to ending the unfortunate hatred that exists on both sides. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 7:36pm
May be we need another Andalucia, another Tariq bin Ziad?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 7:57pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Placid

Response: --- Jesus was a Messenger of God, also the Savior, Redeemer and Messiah, --- though He came as a Servant. Jesus said in John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (You see, Jesus words were the Gospel Message that God gave to Him, mentioned in Surah 3:48-49, --- and 5:46-47.
--- This says, “He who HEARS Jesus’ words (who receives His words with understanding), --- and believes in Him (God) who sent Him (Jesus), --- shall not come into judgment, but has already passed from spiritual death --- to Spiritual life.


This only confirms my point.  Jesus (pbuh) said that all who believed his message, which came from God, would achieve salvation.  Yet, he never said to them that he was their "lord".  In fact, he went out of his way to reiterate that only God is "Lord" of all.

Originally posted by Placid

Response: --- Do you really follow the teachings of Muhammad?
When I was told by a Moderator, “If you want to know about Islam, read the Quran,” --- I thought, how wonderful, it is all here, I will find out what they believe.

--- I checked what God gave Muhammad to teach, --- like Surah 3:
2 God! There is no God but He, - the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
7 He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book ---- (and others which are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking to cause dissension by seeking to explain it.) --- None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

--- I thought, Wow! --- I can agree with this.
2 God is Almighty and Eternal.
3 He sent down the teaching in truth step by step, ‘confirming’ the former Scriptures (without error) in the same way He sent down the Torah, (Law) to Moses, and the Gospel (Injil) to Jesus.
4 The ‘criterion of right and wrong’ --- The Ten Commandments to Moses and Aaron, (Surah 21:48)
7 The basics of the Book, Old and New Testament, and the ‘confirmation’ in the Quran, --- (and the division of those who argue about the truth which God revealed) --- Then the proclamation that no one knows the interpretation except God (and those He reveals it to), --- then the conclusion that the whole Book of the the Scriptures is from the Lord, --- but only men of understanding, really get it.

This said to me that since Muhammad was called to be a messenger of God in 600 AD, and the angel Gabriel confirming everything that he revealed to Zechariah and Mary in the Gospels proves that everything that follows is true, because, if it wasn’t, --- Gabriel would not have approved it, would he?


The Quran was referring to the original Torah and Gospel, not the books we know today as the Tanakh and the New Testament.  It also states that both the Jews and Christians forgot a large part of the message that was brought to them:

"But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done." (5:13-14)


Also, the Quran referred to other previous scriptures, some of which obviously have not survived:

"Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses- And of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements?-" (53:36-37)

"And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelation),- The Books of Abraham and Moses." (87:18-19)


These scriptures were the true revelations.  Some have been lost.  Others have been corrupted and are no longer reliable.

Originally posted by Placid

There are these verses that are very complimentary to Christians in Surah 5:
82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
86 But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

--- Note: --- What Muhammad was teaching had to be truths of Scripture that the Christians already believed, or they would not have become ‘weepy’ from ‘recognizing the truth’ --- (so it couldn’t have been some new doctrine that they had not heard of, --- could it?)
--- This says that because of the faith and prayers of believing Christians, they will go to their ‘Eternal home’ with God.


You need to study the historical context of these verses before making assumptions.  These verse were revealed specifically with regard to the Negus, the ruler of Ethiopia.  When he heard one of the Muslims refugees recite the Quranic story of Mary and Jesus, he immediately recognized it as the truth and, it is said, became a Muslim.  Note that the Quranic story says nothing about Jesus being the son of God, yet the Negus still believed it.  You can read about it the whole episode here:

http://www.ilmfruits.com/2006/jafar-ibn-abu-talibs-speech-to-the-negus/


Originally posted by Placid

There is a hint that Muhammad was teaching about Jesus, because Jesus was the Sign given in Surah 3, where he said:
50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"
 

I already mentioned this verse myself.  It proves that Jesus (pbuh) never told anyone to take him as their "lord" but instead taught them that Allah (swt) was Lord of all.

Originally posted by Placid

-- You see, these are the truths that Christians follow. --- Jesus was the Sign from the prophecy in Isaiah, --- This was the Sign fulfilled in Matthew that Jesus would be born of a virgin.
This was what the angel said to the shepherds, “This will be the Sign unto you, you will find the Babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.” Luke 2:12.


No, you don't.  Where in the Quran did Jesus say that he had come to die for everyone's sins?  Where did he say that we should take him as our "lord"? 

Just because there are similarities between some parts of the Gospels and the Quran does not mean they are in complete agreement.  If you read the whole Quran, you will find many differences, one of which is the Christian claim that Jesus (pbuh) was God's "son".

Originally posted by Placid

Also, I used this verse, and said that it gives the Christians assurance of their reward, --- Surah 3:
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:
56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
--- Notice the warning again, “And to those who reject FAITH.”

In response to my suggestion that this gives ‘the followers of Jesus’ direct assurance from God, --- because God said it.

--- You said, Quote: Anyone can give you "assurance". That doesn't mean it is true. Just because your scripture tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.

--- I wonder if this is not a most contradictory statement?


You are mixing up different posts.  My response above was made on 12/11 to answer the following question from you:

"That is true dedication, so do you have the assurance of eternal life, as the Scriptures say we can have? --- (I’m not inviting you to be like me, --- but how are you in your present level of faith in God?)"

I was responding to your Christian belief that you have an assurance of salvation. 

Now, the verses you refer to are talking about the true followers of Jesus (pbuh), i.e. those who did not corrupt the message.  Some Islamic scholars, such as Ibn Kathir, believed that these verses were referring to Christians and Jews, with the former being "closer" to the truth since they believed in Jesus (pbuh), even though they were still unbelievers, while the Jews rejected Jesus (pbuh) outright.  In any case, it does not mean that Christians are true believers in Jesus (pbuh).  The Quran makes that clear in many places.

Originally posted by Placid

So you are saying, --- Though GOD SAID IT, --- in the Quran, --- it doesn’t make it true. ---


Don't put words in my mouth.  That is really annoying.

Your misquotes of the Quran do not prove your points.  The Quran clearly refers to both Jews and Christians as unbelievers and does not say that Muslims must believe in the books now called the "Tanakh" and "New Testament". 

Originally posted by Placid

---(You see, --- your verse in the Quran ‘confirms’ what the Gospel teaches about assurance of salvation through faith and obedience. --- Notice the wording, “THOSE WHO FOLLOW THEE. --- This implies both Faith and Obedience. In the Gospel Jesus said “Follow Me” --- In Surah 3:50 Jesus said “Obey Me.”)


Well, of course it does!  All people that were sent prophets were required to believe in them and follow them.  How does that "confirm" your belief that Jesus (pbuh) is your "savior"?  The Quran does not refer to the prophets as "saviors" so why would Jesus (pbuh) be any different?

Originally posted by Placid

-- Or, are you saying: --- “Just because it says it “In the Quran” doesn’t make it so?”
--- Or, in saying “Anyone can give you assurance.” --- Does that mean a secular voice can give the same assurance that God’s Promise can?
--- So, where is your faith in our one Eternal God, who is the only One who CAN give assurance of salvation?


Again, you mixed up two different posts.  Go back and read my responses carefully. 

As I have said, only God is Lord and Savior, whereas you have been saying that you have taken Jesus as your "lord and savior".  That is shirk.  It is blasphemy and a clear violation of the 1st commandment.  For you to try teach me about salvation is like a mechanic teaching a doctor about medicine.  It just won't work.


Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2012 at 6:09am
Hi Islam,

Quote: As I have said, only God is Lord and Savior, whereas you have been saying that you have taken Jesus as your "lord and savior". That is shirk. It is blasphemy and a clear violation of the 1st commandment. For you to try to teach me about salvation is like a mechanic teaching a doctor about medicine. It just won't work.

Response: --- I agree with your last line. --- I have heard that Muslims have their own plan of salvation through their ‘good works,’ --- even though in the Quran it puts Faith first, just like it does in the NT. --- If you look at various verses you will see that it says, “Those who BELIEVE and do good works, will receive the reward.” --- The pattern is, Faith first, which leads to obedience, --- which leads to doing God’s will, and doing His ‘Good works’.

However, on an interfaith Forum I believe it is the idea for us to express what we believe, so that we each may understand the other a little better.

--- When you and others asked me, “Who are you?” or “What are you?” or “Are you a Unitarian?” or “Are you a Jehovah’s Witness?” --- I answered by saying, “I don’t usually talk about myself, but since you asked ---“.
--- So I told you.

Now you have shown a type of ‘exclusivism’ by saying “Only God is Lord, --- None of the disciples called Jesus Lord.”

--- So I checked the Gospels for a list of those who called Jesus Lord, --- and that doesn’t include the times that He is called ‘The Lord Jesus,’ or ‘The Lord Jesus Christ.’ --- You see, Lord also means ‘Master.’
In the New King James Version, and some others, --- if it is written ‘lord’ it refers to an earthly ‘master.’ --- If it is written ‘Lord’ it refers to Jesus. --- If it is written ‘LORD’ it refers to God.

And Jesus said, “Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not the things I say?”
And again He said, “You call me Lord, and so I am.”
And again he said, “In that day many will come to Me and say Lord, Lord, haven’t we done this in your name --- and that in your name?” --- And I will say, Depart from Me, I never knew you.”

Again He said, “Not everyone who says to Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of MY Father in heaven.”

Now here is the partial list in the Gospels where the speaker called Jesus “Lord.”
Matthew 7:21-22; 8:2, 6, 8, 21, 25; --- 9:28; --- 12:1, 8; --- 13:51; --- 14:28, 30; --- 15:22, 25, 27; --- 16:22; --- 17:15; --- 18:21; --- 20:30, 31, 33; --- 21:3; --- 24:42; --- 25:11, 37, 44; --- 26;22; --- 28:6
Mark 9:24; --- 11:3; --- 16:19, 20. --- (Many more in Mark are the same as in Matthew.)
Luke 1:43, 45; --- 2:11; --- 5:8, 17; --- 6:5, 46; --- 7:6; --- 9:54, 57, 59, 61; --- 10:17, 40; --- 11:1, --- 12:41; --- 13:23; --- 17:5, 37; --- 18:41; --- 19:8; --- 22:33, 38, 49; --- 23:42.
John 6:34, 68; --- 8:11; --- 9:36, 38; ---11:3, 12, 21, 27, 32, 34, 39; --- 13:6, 9, 13, 25, 36, 37; --- 14:5, 8, 22; --- 20:13, 18, 20, 25, 29; --- 21:7, 12, 15, 16, 17, 20; --- 21:21.

How little you know about the Gospels which the angel Gabriel confirmed.       


Placid

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2012 at 5:42pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Placid

Response: --- I agree with your last line. --- I have heard that Muslims have their own plan of salvation through their ‘good works,’ --- even though in the Quran it puts Faith first, just like it does in the NT. --- If you look at various verses you will see that it says, “Those who BELIEVE and do good works, will receive the reward.” --- The pattern is, Faith first, which leads to obedience, --- which leads to doing God’s will, and doing His ‘Good works’.


You agreed with the last line, which means that you didn't agree with the rest of my rebuttal, specifically this part:

"As I have said, only God is Lord and Savior, whereas you have been saying that you have taken Jesus as your "lord and savior". That is shirk. It is blasphemy and a clear violation of the 1st commandment."

Do you disagree that only God is "Lord and Savior"?! Shocked

And when did I say that belief is not essential to salvation? 

Originally posted by Placid

However, on an interfaith Forum I believe it is the idea for us to express what we believe, so that we each may understand the other a little better.
 

I agree, but it is also the purpose of an interfaith forum to ultimately acknowledge the truth, not the truth as we may see it, but the actual truth.  This can only be done by looking at the evidence and using our common sense and reason.

Originally posted by Placid

--- When you and others asked me, “Who are you?” or “What are you?” or “Are you a Unitarian?” or “Are you a Jehovah’s Witness?” --- I answered by saying, “I don’t usually talk about myself, but since you asked ---“.
--- So I told you.


Why would you be so secretive about your religious background?  What's the big deal in identifying your religious background?  If you were hesitating, I would become suspicious that you are trying to sell something instead of actually trying to have an honest discussion.

Originally posted by Placid

Now you have shown a type of ‘exclusivism’ by saying “Only God is Lord, --- None of the disciples called Jesus Lord.”
 

You are damn right that this is "exclusivism"!  Why do you think we call ourselves "monotheists"?  Are you a monotheist?  Do you acknowledge the 1st Commandment?

Originally posted by Placid

--- So I checked the Gospels for a list of those who called Jesus Lord, --- and that doesn’t include the times that He is called ‘The Lord Jesus,’ or ‘The Lord Jesus Christ.’ --- You see, Lord also means ‘Master.’
In the New King James Version, and some others, --- if it is written ‘lord’ it refers to an earthly ‘master.’ --- If it is written ‘Lord’ it refers to Jesus. --- If it is written ‘LORD’ it refers to God.


You insisted that Jesus is your "lord and savior".  Clearly, you are implying that he is more than just your "master", which in itself is a problem, because Jesus was just a servant.  His master was God.

Originally posted by Placid

How little you know about the Gospels which the angel Gabriel confirmed.


How little you know about me!  I know the Gospels well, and I was already well aware of the verses you referred to.  What you fail to realize is that the "Gospels" are not Jesus' words, but the words of those who came after him. 

Perhaps you can explain why in Titus 2:13, Paul referred to Jesus as "the great god and savior":

"It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." (Titus 2:12-14)

Do you agree that this is shirk and a clear violation of the 1st commandment?  Be honest with yourself.  It is your future that is at stake.  You do me no favors by acknowledging the truth.  You acknowledge it for your own good.


Edited by islamispeace - 20 December 2012 at 5:43pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2012 at 7:04am
Hi Islam,

I notice you didn't comment on the Poem that someone wrote about the tragedy of the 20 children, and how God takes care of little ones under the age of accountability.

This is what we believe from the Scriptures although the details are unknown, --- but this answers the question from Post 1.

I was going to ask you about God's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah which is written in both Genesis and the Quran. --- Did God not destroy all the children who otherwise, would have grown up like their degraded and immoral parents?

But rather, God removed this blemish on the land and would save the innocent children who were not of the age of accountability, --- as well as any true believers.

Is that not God's justice --- and His right to do?


(We eill check Titus 2:13 next.)

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