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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:11pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Placid

Thank you for going over my post so that we can see the things you don’t understand about Christians, --- (though you moved part of one meaningful sentence, as you can see, near the beginning). --- I had written it as follows:
“In studying the NT, I realized that faith and knowledge were just the beginning. To really know God’s will for my life, I needed to surrender my will completely to God and take Jesus as my Lord, as well as my Savior.
--- To take Him as our Lord means that we become obedient to His teaching,”


This is shirk from Islam's point of view.  By taking Jesus as your "lord and savior", you are committing a grave sin, because only God is "Lord and Savior". 

Originally posted by Placid

Response: --- No, you are not crazy, just unaware of what Christians believe, --- yet you present yourself as though you do. (Perhaps the ‘flip side’ of being crazy, is suggesting that if you are not crazy, then we Christians are.)
Many Baptists will tell you they believe that Jesus is God, but that comes from a church doctrine of trinity (that is rarely discussed in Churches, but consistently on Muslim websites), which is not quite Scriptural. --- However, our salvation does not depend on our doctrinal understanding, but on our Faith in God and our obedience to Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.


I know many Christians who would disagree with you.  If I were to have approached these Christians with what you stated above as being the true Christian understanding, they would say that I don't understand Christianity, the same as you!  So, who is right?  The plain truth is that the vast majority of Christians worship Jesus as "God".  And they regard anyone who does not consider Jesus to be "God" to be outside the fold of Christianity.

Originally posted by Placid

--- In the Quran, Jesus is called the Messiah some 8 times and if you look at the name given Him, you might understand, --- Jesus means Savior, --- and Christ means Messiah, so we believe in Jesus, the Christ, whom God has sent.
 

Actually, the name "Jesus" is the Greek form of the Hebrew Yehoshuah, which means "God saves" or "Yahweh saves".  It does not mean "savior".  As I said, only God is "Savior" and that is what Jesus' name implies as well.

Originally posted by Placid

--- The confusion comes from the fact that The Word (Logos), ‘that was with God in the beginning,’ (John 1:1), --- came from heaven and indwelt the fleshly body of Jesus who was born of Mary, on earth. --- Jesus was God’s Manifestation on earth. (He said, “I and My Father are one.”) --- He had a human body, and a Divine Soul and Spirit, did He not? --- He could say as a human, I am hungry, I am thirsty, I am tired,” --- and as the Word (Logos) of God, --- He could say, “Before Abraham was, I AM.”
And He could also speak to God through Jesus, as in the prayer of Jesus in John 17:
3 “And this is Eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”


It seems the confusion is the fault of Christian doctrine itself.  Even your statements above show the contradictory nature of Christian doctrine.  You say that Jesus is not God yet then you say that "Jesus was God's Manifestation on earth".  You also say that he had "a Divine Soul and Spirit".  How can a human have a "divine soul"? 

Originally posted by Placid

45. (And remember) when the angels said, “O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a ‘Word’ from Him whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter and one of those brought near unto God.
46. He will speak unto mankind from his cradle and in his manhood and he is of the righteous.”
47. She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?”
He said, ”So it will be, God creates what He will. If He decrees a thing, He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.


Yes, and this is the same "word" through which God created Adam (pbuh) as well:

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." (3:59)

All mankind was created the same way.  That includes Jesus (pbuh) as well.

Originally posted by Placid

-- While it is not ‘befitting’ --- and ‘out of the ordinary,’ and seemingly ‘below the Dignity of God’ that He should have one who is CALLED His son, --- but "If He decrees it," --- He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.


It is below the Dignity of God, whether you say that Jesus was simply "called" God's "son" or as other Christians believe, he was "literally" God's "son", it is no different than what the Arab pagans believed about God.  The only difference was that they believed that He had daughters!

Originally posted by Placid

This comes from the original announcement in Luke 1, where the same angel Gabriel came to the same Virgin Mary and gave the same announcement some 600 years before it was revealed by the same Gabriel to Muhammad --- And this is the same angel Gabriel that ‘confirms‘ it to be true in Surah 3:3.
--- We could say, “He said it, he did it, and he confirmed it.”


There is a HUGE difference between the two.  Luke claims that Mary (as) was given glad tidings of a son who would be "God's son" as well.  The Quran makes no such statement, as you showed above.  Mary (as) was simply given glad tidings of a son who would be God's prophet.

Originally posted by Placid

--- But Gabriel was only a Messenger of God. --- He is not the Holy Spirit, or it would be said that Jesus was the son of Gabriel. --- However, here is what it says in Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.


That is your belief, not the belief of Muslims.  To us, the "Holy Spirit" is a created being, Gabriel (as).  It is irrelevant what Luke stated.  Muslims don't follow the Gospels for precisely this reason.  The Quran clearly states that Gabriel (as) is the Holy Spirit:

"Say, the holy spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims." (16:102)

Originally posted by Placid

--- You see, this is why I was fascinated in reading the Quran, because it says the same as the Gospel, which Gabriel ‘confirms’ as true.


I disagree. The Quran may share some similarities with the "Gospels" but it differs in many places.  Some examples have already been provided by both you and I.  The verses you referred to, ironically, show the great differences between the Quran and the Gospels.

Originally posted by Placid

Now if you believe the Quran, as you say you do, --- you have to believe this, do you not?
--- (Or should I ask if I am crazy for believing these things in both the Bible and the Quran?)
 

I think you are wrong, not crazy.  The Quran does not tell Muslims that they have to believe the "Gospels".  It does not say to Muslims to believe in the "Gospel of Luke" or the "Gospel of Matthew".  It tells Muslims that the Quran is the final word and that is what they should believe. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2012 at 1:20pm
Hi Islam,

Quote: --- Also, how can you claim Jesus as your "savior" if you don't believe he is God? Isn't God the only Savior?

Response: --- As I explained on a different topic, it says in the Prophecy in Isaiah 7:
14. Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
And this is fulfilled in Matthew 1:
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”


Just before this it said in Matthew 1:
20 Behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him (Joseph) in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
--- And it says in Luke 1:
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

God is God --- Jesus is the Savior.
As it says in John 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

--- (You may not understand this, but you can study it later. ---The Israelites had sinned and turned away from God, and God sent fiery serpents among them to weed out the unfaithful ones.
--- This was a ‘test of Faith,’ written in Numbers 21:
6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
8. Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.”
9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.)

--- Note that many died, but those who turned their Faith to God, repented and asked Moses again to help them. --- God gave them this ‘test of Faith and obedience,’ --- to ‘look,’ or put Faith in God’s provision. --- This serpent on the pole was a symbol of the Son of Man, --- Jesus, --- being lifted up on the cross, --- and those who “Look on Him in Faith and obedience,” can be saved.

--- (This is another little side note but often on signs on Pharmacies or Drug Stores, they have the symbol of a ‘serpent on a pole.’ --- And that comes from this Scripture in Numbers 21.)

--- To continue from 14 “Even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (on a cross),
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten (Unique) Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
--- So it is 'through' Jesus that we are saved, this is the core of the Gospel Message.


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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2012 at 3:25pm
islamispeace (?)

How is it that you excuse your rudeness by saying others who call attention to it are thin skinned?  It has little to do with being 'thin skinned', and only to do with you and your need for rudeness in conversation.

Salaam,
CH
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2012 at 4:32pm
Hi Again,

You have many questions so I will just keep answering them.
Quote: The teachings Jesus (pbuh) brought were not his, but God's. Therefore, Jesus should not be taken as your "Lord", but only God. Taking a man as you "Lord" is a violation of the 1st Commandment.

Response: --- Jesus was a Messenger of God, also the Savior, Redeemer and Messiah, --- though He came as a Servant. Jesus said in John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (You see, Jesus words were the Gospel Message that God gave to Him, mentioned in Surah 3:48-49, --- and 5:46-47.
--- This says, “He who HEARS Jesus’ words (who receives His words with understanding), --- and believes in Him (God) who sent Him (Jesus), --- shall not come into judgment, but has already passed from spiritual death --- to Spiritual life.


Quote: Let me give you an example. I follow the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), but I would never call him my "Lord".

Response: --- Do you really follow the teachings of Muhammad?
When I was told by a Moderator, “If you want to know about Islam, read the Quran,” --- I thought, how wonderful, it is all here, I will find out what they believe.

--- I checked what God gave Muhammad to teach, --- like Surah 3:
2 God! There is no God but He, - the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)
4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
7 He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book ---- (and others which are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking to cause dissension by seeking to explain it.) --- None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

--- I thought, Wow! --- I can agree with this.
2 God is Almighty and Eternal.
3 He sent down the teaching in truth step by step, ‘confirming’ the former Scriptures (without error) in the same way He sent down the Torah, (Law) to Moses, and the Gospel (Injil) to Jesus.
4 The ‘criterion of right and wrong’ --- The Ten Commandments to Moses and Aaron, (Surah 21:48)
7 The basics of the Book, Old and New Testament, and the ‘confirmation’ in the Quran, --- (and the division of those who argue about the truth which God revealed) --- Then the proclamation that no one knows the interpretation except God (and those He reveals it to), --- then the conclusion that the whole Book of the the Scriptures is from the Lord, --- but only men of understanding, really get it.

This said to me that since Muhammad was called to be a messenger of God in 600 AD, and the angel Gabriel confirming everything that he revealed to Zechariah and Mary in the Gospels proves that everything that follows is true, because, if it wasn’t, --- Gabriel would not have approved it, would he?


Placid

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2012 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


It extends out of love for God.  God wants us to give in charity.  That is enough for us.  Yes, helping our enemies and being kind to them is also recommended.  A perfect example of that is in how the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) pardoned the Jewish woman who served him a poisoned lamb or how he exonerated the people of Mecca (those who had persecuted him and his followers for close to 20 years) when he conquered the city in a blood-less battle.  Even when he fought against his enemies, he generally showed them mercy...unlike the Israelites who were told to kill everyone off (babies included). 


What do you think it would take to put an end to the prejudice between muslims and Jews?
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 4:30am
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Here are just some of your sarcastic words: thin-skinned, dude, too dense to understand, Childish finger pointing, ignorant, grow up, lack common sense etc. On the one hand you tell us Allah is beneficent and tell stories of Mohammed's magnanimity and then effectively repudiate it with you attitude and words.

So God is "loving and just" yet He ordered the killings of infants.  Right...

If we look at the passage in 1 Samuel 15 and the first few verses and we know this is history whether we like it or not. So it maybe that God ordains punishment for the Amalekites who were known to be exceedingly wicked. We also know from this passage that Saul had been rejected by God as King because of his disobedience - that is more or less the context plus one has to remember how the Amalekites treated the Israelites when they left Egypt. Now I feel very unhappy with this story as I feel unhappy with any similar thing, I feel unhappy that according to the Quran people will suffer the worst possible pain for all eternity - do you feel the same or do you think unbelievers get what they deserve since they are guilty and punishment is their due according to you.

As I have said before, both Jews and Christians regard passages like this as 's*****p', meaning we agree that they happened but cannot understand exactly why. You say that this verse shows that the Bible is not the word of God but then you disregard other verse that tell of love and compassion - the issue is that why would anyone put in such verses if it were not true? Its obvious to any one these verses are difficult and uncomfortable and if one wants to tamper with the text there is every reason to leave them out.

You say that everyone has the chance to 'turn things around' but what about those who have never heard the message of salvation from the BIble or Quran, should they suffer enterally simply because they never heard? Why does God allow babies to die at all? Only Muslims it seems cry Allah Akba when they kill even indiscriminately - why is that? Why is it that Muslim will say it is better to die for Allah when Moses in Deuteronomy 30:19 Says "I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and curses; therefore choose life, that your descendants may live."

What I am trying to prove is that the Bible cannot be God's Word. This thread is one of the proofs of this claim. The Bible contains alleged commands by God that called for merciless destruction and baby-killing.  What kind of God-fearing person would actually believe that God would order such monstrous behavior?  This is the same God who said "thou shalt not kill".  The same God who said in the Quran that if anyone killed a person unjustly, it would be as if he had killed all of mankind (5:32).

But you are trying to prove it by picking ONLY verses or sections that suit your case, you are cherry picking and that is hardly and honest assessment is it? I can go through the Quran and just pick verses I don't like and claim therefore it cannot be from God. For example, does the Quran call you to die for Allah, if so I rejects it because God calls us to life, the Quran tells you that Muslims are the best of all people, this is obvious;y untrue so I rejects the Quran, the Quran tells of unimaginable suffering for unbelievers so I reject it and so on.

Your argument for up to four wives and concubines is hopeless. Sure it is generally said that there are more women that men but it is also know that accurate figures are almost impossible to get. In any case there is certainly not 4 times as many women plus neither then Quran or hadith offer that nonsense as a reason. It is also in my view to treat all your wives equally, the very idea that I would leave my wife for another I find anathema. You keep mentioning common sense but do you know what it means? Its fine for everyday things like crossing the road but beyond that its very unreliable and often it only means that your ego give you an authority that is totally unwarranted. Try reading Duncan Watts's book "Everything is Obvious" and see what it really amounts to.

[/Quote]It extends out of love for God. God wants us to give in charity.  That is enough for us.  Yes, helping our enemies and being kind to them is also recommended.  A perfect example of that is in how the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) pardoned the Jewish woman who served him a poisoned lamb or how he exonerated the people of Mecca (those who had persecuted him and his followers for close to 20 years) when he conquered the city in a blood-less battle.  Even when he fought against his enemies, he generally showed them mercy...unlike the Israelites who were told to kill everyone off (babies included).[/QUOTE]
Interesting, tell me is there ANYTHING in Islam or its history you would be ashamed of or sad about? For example, you mentioned your prophet about but he is also mention in about 40 assassinations, killings he approved of because for example they insulted him?
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 5:54am
Hi Islam,

You said) Quote: “I follow the teachings of Muhammad,”
So I want to continue a little more with the things that Muhammad taught, that you should agree with.

There are these verses that are very complimentary to Christians in Surah 5:
82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
86 But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

--- Note: --- What Muhammad was teaching had to be truths of Scripture that the Christians already believed, or they would not have become ‘weepy’ from ‘recognizing the truth’ --- (so it couldn’t have been some new doctrine that they had not heard of, --- could it?)
--- This says that because of the faith and prayers of believing Christians, they will go to their ‘Eternal home’ with God.

There is a hint that Muhammad was teaching about Jesus, because Jesus was the Sign given in Surah 3, where he said:
50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

--- You see, these are the truths that Christians follow. --- Jesus was the Sign from the prophecy in Isaiah, --- This was the Sign fulfilled in Matthew that Jesus would be born of a virgin.
This was what the angel said to the shepherds, “This will be the Sign unto you, you will find the Babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.” Luke 2:12.

Now notice the warning in verse 86:
--- But those who reject Faith and belie our "Signs," - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

Also, I used this verse, and said that it gives the Christians assurance of their reward, --- Surah 3:
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:
56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
--- Notice the warning again, “And to those who reject FAITH.”

In response to my suggestion that this gives ‘the followers of Jesus’ direct assurance from God, --- because God said it.

--- You said, Quote: Anyone can give you "assurance". That doesn't mean it is true. Just because your scripture tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.

--- I wonder if this is not a most contradictory statement?
God said --- In the Quran, “I will make those who follow thee (Jesus) superior to those who reject faith.”

So you are saying, --- Though GOD SAID IT, --- in the Quran, --- it doesn’t make it true. --- You go on to say:
Quote: Just because your scripture (In the Quran) tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so. ---

---(You see, --- your verse in the Quran ‘confirms’ what the Gospel teaches about assurance of salvation through faith and obedience. --- Notice the wording, “THOSE WHO FOLLOW THEE. --- This implies both Faith and Obedience. In the Gospel Jesus said “Follow Me” --- In Surah 3:50 Jesus said “Obey Me.”)

--- Or, are you saying: --- “Just because it says it “In the Quran” doesn’t make it so?”
--- Or, in saying “Anyone can give you assurance.” --- Does that mean a secular voice can give the same assurance that God’s Promise can?
--- So, where is your faith in our one Eternal God, who is the only One who CAN give assurance of salvation?


Placid

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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by islamispeace


It extends out of love for God.  God wants us to give in charity.  That is enough for us.  Yes, helping our enemies and being kind to them is also recommended.  A perfect example of that is in how the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) pardoned the Jewish woman who served him a poisoned lamb or how he exonerated the people of Mecca (those who had persecuted him and his followers for close to 20 years) when he conquered the city in a blood-less battle.  Even when he fought against his enemies, he generally showed them mercy...unlike the Israelites who were told to kill everyone off (babies included). 


What do you think it would take to put an end to the prejudice between muslims and Jews?




Hi Caringheart,

Get the illegal apartheid state of Israel to dismantle return of the land to the people who lived there prior to 1948 get rid of the Zionist maybe to Las Vegas.What about Europe in Germany where they came from or England.That would be a start.
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