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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 11 December 2012 at 7:56pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Placid

Response: --- What am I? --- I became a Christian, --- that means I accepted Jesus as my Savior many years ago, in a Baptist Church, for which I thank God, and the caring people that witnessed to me about the Love of God and His provision for salvation through Jesus Christ.


Okay, now you have lost me.  You say you don't believe that Jesus is God, yet you say that you became a "Christian" in a Baptist Church.  Am I crazy or don't Baptists believe that Jesus is God? 

Also, how can you claim Jesus as your "savior" if you don't believe he is God?  Isn't God the only Savior?

Originally posted by Placid

-- Now since you ask I will speak freely of what Christians believe, --- and it is through Faith in God, and an awareness of His presence with us, that gives the assurance of Eternal life, (which is also verified to Christians in the Quran, Surah 3:55).
However, I began to read and study the Bible and I learned about the faith of Abraham, our Patriarch. --- Then the many other Prophets and teachers.
In studying the NT, I realized that faith and knowledge were just the beginning. To really know God’s will for my life, I needed to surrender my
--- To take Him as our Lord means that we become obedient to His teaching, which comes from ‘the Sermon on the Mount,’ Matthew 5, 6, and 7, --- and the two commandments to “Love God with all your heart,” --- And ‘love your neighbor as yourself’. --- A single verse that expresses this instruction is John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
--- “He who HEARS My word. --- The word ‘HEAR’ has the deeper meaning of --- ‘understanding and obeying’ Jesus’ teaching.
In dedicating myself to follow Jesus as He said to His disciples and Apostles, “Follow Me,” --- so I have done that. will completely to God and take Jesus as my Lord, as well as my Savior.


The teachings Jesus (pbuh) brought were not his, but God's.  Therefore, Jesus should not be taken as your "Lord", but only God.  Taking a man as you "Lord" is a violation of the 1st Commandment. 

Let me give you an example.  I follow the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), but I would never call him my "Lord".  That would be shirk, the worst possible sin.  I have only one Lord and Savior, and that is the Lord of the Worlds, Allah (swt). 

Originally posted by Placid

--- It is really like your signature verse:
--- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for God, the Cherisher of the Worlds.” (Surat al-Anaam: 162).
--- That is true dedication, so do you have the assurance of eternal life, as the Scriptures say we can have? --- (I’m not inviting you to be like me, --- but how are you in your present level of faith in God?) --- Can you agree with what I say next?


Anyone can give you "assurance".  That doesn't mean it is true.  Just because your scripture tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.

To answer your question, I am fully secure in my faith.  The Quran and Sunnah promise salvation for those who believe that "there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is messenger."  This declaration of faith will be the saving grace for all who sincerely believe it.

Originally posted by Placid

I would like to make a comparison --- to becoming a true Muslim.
I understand that Islam means ‘Surrender,’ or ‘Submission,’ according to Surah 5:
3 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
--- (This seems to have been ‘imbedded’ in this verse later, because it does not suit the context, and it seems that it was revealed to Muhammad in year 10 of the Hijrah, after the victory had been won over idolatry, --- shortly before his death.)
--- And this referred to the Faith of Abraham, as in Surah 2:
132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
Yusuf Ali: 132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
--- (So to follow the Faith of Abraham makes one a ‘believer’ --- and you don’t need labels, because that tries to ‘categorize’ you, --- The word “Christian’ really means ‘Christ’s one.’
 

But by taking Jesus and your "lord and savior", you are not believing in God but in Jesus.  All the prophets taught submission to God alone, not to anyone else.  Jesus (pbuh) himself taught as much.  To follow the Faith of Abraham requires the acknowledgement of God alone and other elements of faith such as belief in all the prophets, angels, the unaltered books, the Day of Judgment etc. 

Originally posted by Placid

-- I became fascinated by the Quran, because it gives the same pattern of conversion that the Gospel does.
The first point is to Believe in God as Sovereign and Almighty. Then to believe in His word, as it says in Surah 4:
162 But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.
163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.
164   Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not; - and to Moses God spoke direct; -
165 Apostles who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the apostles, should have no plea against God: For God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
166 But God beareth witness that what He hath sent unto thee He hath sent from His (own) knowledge, and the angels bear witness: But enough is God for a witness.
167 Those who reject Faith and keep off (men) from the way of God, have verily strayed far, far away from the Path.
--- (So, --- to know God’s will for our lives, we have to believe these words that speak of the inspiration of the Prophets, and receive this same ‘inspiration ‘ by the Holy Spirit, before we are in this realm of Faith as a believer.


You are mixing Christian elements with Islamic ones.  The "Holy Spirit" is the Angel Gabriel (as), not an attribute of God.  Also, do you accept all the prophets mentioned in the Quran, including Muhammad (pbuh)? 

Originally posted by Placid

--- So I am a believer and ‘follower’ of Jesus like the Apostles were (and by God’s grace, will continue to be surrendered unto Him).
--- And finally, this last verse that follows gives the assurance:
3:55   Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:


But the disciples did not say that Jesus was their "lord and savior".  In fact, Jesus (pbuh) said:

""'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"" (3:51)

Only when you acknowledge Allah (swt) as the One God and Jesus (pbuh) as a righteous prophet and not your "lord and savior" and also acknowledge Muhammad (pbuh) as the prophet of God, will you be in the "Faith of Abraham", as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught:

"Narrated Abu Burda's father: Allah's Apostle said "Three persons will have a double reward: 1. A Person from the people of the scriptures who believed in his prophet (Jesus or Moses) and then believed in the prophet Muhammad (i .e. has embraced Islam). 2. A slave who discharges his duties to Allah and his master. 3. A master of a woman-slave who teaches her good manners and educates her in the best possible way (the religion) and manumits her and then marries her."" (Sahih Bukhari, 3:97)


Originally posted by Placid

Sorry, it is a little long, but you were asking. --- Would you also like to relate your testimony so that we might know your experience of Faith as well?)


Besides what I have already stated, what else would you like to know?


Edited by islamispeace - 11 December 2012 at 7:57pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 11 December 2012 at 8:57pm
Greetings islamispeace,

First let me say I find your conversation with Placid helpful.

Just curious though, and I must ask you to think about this... Will you still think it is evil if it is Islam(or the muslims, rather than the Israelites) that does this to people in the name of ridding the world of those who do not believe in Muhammad?  Do you think those intent on ridding the world of 'unbelievers' today is any different that the Israelites ridding the territory of the 'pagans' in their day?  Do you think the muslims will stop at killing babies when they see the world as dar al Islam and dar al Harb?  Will you have just as much of a problem with this issue in that scenario?  Because I think this is really the crux of the matter that needs to be addressed.  Will it be acceptable to repeat this behavior or should we have evolved?  Will you condemn it just as strongly in a new scenario?
I condemn it because I follow a new covenant of God, one that would not order killing.  I can not speak on the matter of the old testament and whether people did as God truly ordered, or if they did as they pleased.  I can say that the new covenant takes us to a higher level of intelligence, understanding, and evolution.  If the quran supports this new covenant then I have no problem with the people of the quran.

As long as your main purpose is to attack the beliefs of good people rather than being able to separate that there are good and evil in all groups of people, and seeking the common good, you serve the devils purpose of constant aggression, rather than seeking peace.  I am seeking to find the good in the people of Islam, to assure myself that their beliefs are not beliefs that will cause constant chaos and fighting in the world.  To assure myself that when evil reveals itself they will have the insight to turn from it, much as so many Germans and Polish did in saving their Jewish neighbors and friends from an evil when that evil became clear.

Salaam and thanks for your consideration,
CH
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 12 December 2012 at 8:19am
Originally posted by islamispeace

Why don't you try to answer the question?  How am I "denigrating" or "insulting" you by labeling the killing of babies as "evil"?  Are you that thin-skinned that you get "insulted" so easily? 

You insult again here - this is supposed to be about reasonable discussion but although you continually ask others to answer questions, YOU run away from them by deciding they are 'laughable' or 'ridiculous'. The whole point of discussion begins when we have adequately defined what we are talking about - in this case God.

God is not exonerated because he is God, he has a character that tells us how he acts unless for you he just acts on a whim? in this case I would say that God is loving and just - in fact this is central to Christianity and we see it most clearly in the death of Jesus on the cross. Loving in that jesus died for our sins and just in that he suffered for what others had done to satisfy his own holiness.

I will deal with the verse you quoted in another post but there is something wrong with your sense of right and wrong if you consider a comparison between external intense suffering and killing babies as 'ridiculous.' Let me ask you, would you prefer to be killed as a baby or suffer the most vicious suffering for eternity?

What in these posts are you trying to demonstrate or prove - that Islam and therefore its God is superior to that of Jews and Christians? No orthodox Christian or Jew would deny there is punishment for those who reject God and that in the Bible, whether we like it or not is the Bible is the whole revelation of God and we cannot pick and choose which bits we regard as acceptable.

here you go again, everyone who debates with you gets the same response: laughable, ridiculous, excuses but you never say much more that this, you cannot face up to truth can you? Do you not see how lame your answers are - first its about God decides and suddenly its common sense - so explain why having up to 4 wives and concubines is 'common sense'?

Im glad we have some commonality over charity but does it for Islam issue out of love and does it extend to loving your enemies?
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 12 December 2012 at 8:39am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.


I assume you have not read the section because you do not quote the verse number so at this stage it looks like you do not know the context and we must know that to have any real hope of an interpretation. in fact it is verses 1-3
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 12 December 2012 at 8:56pm
Greetings islamispeace,

You didn't answer my questions...
"Does Islam teach about sin?  Aren't God's laws meant to keep us from sinning?  Isn't that the main purpose of the scriptures, and if they help us to do that, then there is the wisdom contained in them, correct?"
Does Islam teach about sin?
and
Can you see then how, 'all scripture is useful for instruction'?

Thanks and Salaam,
CH

Edited by Caringheart - 12 December 2012 at 8:57pm
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2012 at 7:48am
Hi Islam,

Thank you for going over my post so that we can see the things you don’t understand about Christians, --- (though you moved part of one meaningful sentence, as you can see, near the beginning). --- I had written it as follows:
“In studying the NT, I realized that faith and knowledge were just the beginning. To really know God’s will for my life, I needed to surrender my will completely to God and take Jesus as my Lord, as well as my Savior.
--- To take Him as our Lord means that we become obedient to His teaching,”

Quote: Okay, now you have lost me. You say you don't believe that Jesus is God, yet you say that you became a "Christian" in a Baptist Church. Am I crazy or don't Baptists believe that Jesus is God?

Response: --- No, you are not crazy, just unaware of what Christians believe, --- yet you present yourself as though you do. (Perhaps the ‘flip side’ of being crazy, is suggesting that if you are not crazy, then we Christians are.)
Many Baptists will tell you they believe that Jesus is God, but that comes from a church doctrine of trinity (that is rarely discussed in Churches, but consistently on Muslim websites), which is not quite Scriptural. --- However, our salvation does not depend on our doctrinal understanding, but on our Faith in God and our obedience to Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.
--- In the Quran, Jesus is called the Messiah some 8 times and if you look at the name given Him, you might understand, --- Jesus means Savior, --- and Christ means Messiah, so we believe in Jesus, the Christ, whom God has sent.

--- The confusion comes from the fact that The Word (Logos), ‘that was with God in the beginning,’ (John 1:1), --- came from heaven and indwelt the fleshly body of Jesus who was born of Mary, on earth. --- Jesus was God’s Manifestation on earth. (He said, “I and My Father are one.”) --- He had a human body, and a Divine Soul and Spirit, did He not? --- He could say as a human, I am hungry, I am thirsty, I am tired,” --- and as the Word (Logos) of God, --- He could say, “Before Abraham was, I AM.”
And He could also speak to God through Jesus, as in the prayer of Jesus in John 17:
3 “And this is Eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

--- And here is what it says about the Word (Logos) in Surah 3:
45. (And remember) when the angels said, “O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a ‘Word’ from Him whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter and one of those brought near unto God.
46. He will speak unto mankind from his cradle and in his manhood and he is of the righteous.”
47. She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?”
He said, ”So it will be, God creates what He will. If He decrees a thing, He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.

And again it says in Surah 19:
21. He (the angel) said, “So it will be, Your Lord says,’It is easy for Me, and it will be that We will make him a revelation (Sign) for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.’”
34. Such was Jesus, son of Mary, this is a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
35. It is not befitting for the (Majesty of God) that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him. When He decrees a thing He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.

--- While it is not ‘befitting’ --- and ‘out of the ordinary,’ and seemingly ‘below the Dignity of God’ that He should have one who is CALLED His son, --- but "If He decrees it," --- He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.

This comes from the original announcement in Luke 1, where the same angel Gabriel came to the same Virgin Mary and gave the same announcement some 600 years before it was revealed by the same Gabriel to Muhammad --- And this is the same angel Gabriel that ‘confirms‘ it to be true in Surah 3:3.
--- We could say, “He said it, he did it, and he confirmed it.”

--- But Gabriel was only a Messenger of God. --- He is not the Holy Spirit, or it would be said that Jesus was the son of Gabriel. --- However, here is what it says in Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

--- You see, this is why I was fascinated in reading the Quran, because it says the same as the Gospel, which Gabriel ‘confirms’ as true.

Now if you believe the Quran, as you say you do, --- you have to believe this, do you not?
--- (Or should I ask if I am crazy for believing these things in both the Bible and the Quran?)



Placid

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2012 at 7:29pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Bunter

You insult again here - this is supposed to be about reasonable discussion but although you continually ask others to answer questions, YOU run away from them by deciding they are 'laughable' or 'ridiculous'. The whole point of discussion begins when we have adequately defined what we are talking about - in this case God.


LOL Well, I guess that answers my question!  You really are so thin-skinned that you get "insulted" so quickly and easily. 

I answered your question, dude.  If you are too dense to understand, that is not my problem.  Childish finger pointing does not help your case.  Oh, sorry.  Did you get insulted?

Originally posted by Bunter

God is not exonerated because he is God, he has a character that tells us how he acts unless for you he just acts on a whim? in this case I would say that God is loving and just - in fact this is central to Christianity and we see it most clearly in the death of Jesus on the cross. Loving in that jesus died for our sins and just in that he suffered for what others had done to satisfy his own holiness.


So God is "loving and just" yet He ordered the killings of infants.  Right...

Originally posted by Bunter

I will deal with the verse you quoted in another post but there is something wrong with your sense of right and wrong if you consider a comparison between external intense suffering and killing babies as 'ridiculous.' Let me ask you, would you prefer to be killed as a baby or suffer the most vicious suffering for eternity?


The difference is that one is innocent and yet was killed in the most brutal way while the other is guilty and deserving of punishment.  One was killed for no reason while the other had every chance to turn things around but didn't.  What kind of twisted mind does not see the difference?

To answer your question, I would rather not be murdered as a baby, but rather be given the chance at life.  Alhamdulillah, I have been given a chance at life.  I am 29 years old.  God only knows how long I will live.  But at least I was not brutally murdered by a marauding soldier allegedly doing "God's work". 

Incidentally, are you pro-life or pro-choice? 

Originally posted by Bunter

What in these posts are you trying to demonstrate or prove - that Islam and therefore its God is superior to that of Jews and Christians? No orthodox Christian or Jew would deny there is punishment for those who reject God and that in the Bible, whether we like it or not is the Bible is the whole revelation of God and we cannot pick and choose which bits we regard as acceptable.
 

Quite the contrary, Bunter!  I am not trying to demonstrate "my God" is better than "your God".  If you weren't so ignorant about Islam, you would know that I worship the God of Abraham (pbuh), as you do.  What I am trying to prove is that the Bible cannot be God's Word.  This thread is one of the proofs of this claim.  The Bible contains alleged commands by God that called for merciless destruction and baby-killing.  What kind of God-fearing person would actually believe that God would order such monstrous behavior?  This is the same God who said "thou shalt not kill".  The same God who said in the Quran that if anyone killed a person unjustly, it would be as if he had killed all of mankind (5:32).  

Originally posted by Bunter

here you go again, everyone who debates with you gets the same response: laughable, ridiculous, excuses but you never say much more that this, you cannot face up to truth can you? Do you not see how lame your answers are - first its about God decides and suddenly its common sense - so explain why having up to 4 wives and concubines is 'common sense'?


LOL Oh, grow up will ya?  You people are so touchy!   

Did God give you common sense?  Don't you just know that certain things are right or wrong?  Or like some of the other people on this forum, was common sense missing when God created you?  Oh, sorry.  You must have been insulted again!

Regarding having 4 wives and concubines, the common sense is in the fact that there are more women then men in the world.  Always have, and probably always will.  So, it makes sense to allow men to marry up to 4 wives.  Moreover, the Quran commands (and this you would have known if you had actually read it):

"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." (An-Nisa, 4:3)

So, the permission to marry up to 4 wives is incumbent upon treating them all equally.  If the man finds that impossible, then he is only allowed one wife.  See?  Common sense!

Originally posted by Bunter

Im glad we have some commonality over charity but does it for Islam issue out of love and does it extend to loving your enemies?
 

It extends out of love for God.  God wants us to give in charity.  That is enough for us.  Yes, helping our enemies and being kind to them is also recommended.  A perfect example of that is in how the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) pardoned the Jewish woman who served him a poisoned lamb or how he exonerated the people of Mecca (those who had persecuted him and his followers for close to 20 years) when he conquered the city in a blood-less battle.  Even when he fought against his enemies, he generally showed them mercy...unlike the Israelites who were told to kill everyone off (babies included). 


Edited by islamispeace - 13 December 2012 at 7:37pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2012 at 12:43pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

You didn't answer my questions...
"Does Islam teach about sin?  Aren't God's laws meant to keep us from sinning?  Isn't that the main purpose of the scriptures, and if they help us to do that, then there is the wisdom contained in them, correct?"
Does Islam teach about sin?
and
Can you see then how, 'all scripture is useful for instruction'?

Thanks and Salaam,
CH


Of course, Islam teaches about sin.  But the difference between Christians and Muslims is that Muslims do not pay lip service to God's laws while not actually following them or enforcing them.  This is what Christians like you do with the Tanakh.  You pay lip service to it but you do not actually follow it.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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