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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2012 at 6:45am
Hi Islam

Continuing in 1 Samuel 8:
God delivered Israel from the Philistines by defeating them and putting such fear in them that they went back to their own land and lived at peace with Israel.
--- But again the Jewish people turned back to idolatry, --- so this was the result of their disobedience again in 1 Samuel 8:
1 Now it came to pass when Samuel was old that he made his sons judges over Israel.
2 The name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba.
3 But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside after dishonest gain, took bribes, and perverted justice.
4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah,
5 and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”
6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord.
7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also.
9 Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”
10 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king.
11 And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots.
12 He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.
13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers.
14 And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants.
15 He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants.
16 And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men,[a] and your donkeys, and put them to his work.
17 He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants.
18 And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.”
19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us,
20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.”
21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the Lord.
22 So the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed their voice, and make them a king.”

--- We will see the difference between doing things under God’s leadership and under man’s leadership.


Placid

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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2012 at 11:08am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

"Islam's history and nature is far too complex to be treated in a brief study. The very term Islam' is equivocal - its sects far exceed in variety and number the almost uncountable sects of Protestant Christianity. To speak indiscriminately of 'Muslims' as if all Muslims believed the same thing, or as if Islam and the Qur'an meant the same thing to all of them, is misleading." (http://jloughnan.tripod.com/3f_islam.htm)

What about you?
in your own words...


What do you mean "in your own words"?  Whose "words" are they going to be?  What are you, a lawyer doing a cross-examination?  This isn't "pretend time"!  LOL

To answer your question, your attempted distraction by quoting a Catholic's opinion about Islam is irrelevant.  It is irrelevant if some Muslims don't interpret the Quran according to the consensus, although it is true that many do, just as many Catholics don't necessarily follow the ruling of the Church.  An individual's personal opinions are unimportant.  We should practice Islam as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) practiced it.  The interpretation should be based on the texts, the Quran and Sunnah.  Personal opinions are irrelevant. 

In addition, the Catholic author makes a few inaccurate statements.  For example, he claims that the 4 schools of jurisprudence (Fiqh) are actually different "sects", which is untrue.  The Hanifis, Malikis, Shafis and Hanbalis are all Sunni Muslims.  They agree on all the central tenets of Islam.  The differences are on minor and mundane issues, such as whether to raise one's hands when going into rukuh during prayer.  On the theological issues, they are in complete agreement.  Therefore, they are not "sects". 

By the way, thank you for showing where you get your information about Islam from.  It is from like-minded fellow Christians!  What a shock!  So, instead of learning about Islam from Islamic sources, you learn it from Christian ones.  How very "unbiased" of you! LOL

Originally posted by Caringheart

Who are you, a muslim, to interpret the Judeo-Christian scriptures, the holy scriptures, from your own point of view and then tell others what their scripture says?

What are your credentials to make judgements about what the scriptures of others say?
   

Another attempted distraction.  Why don't you answer my question? 

When did I interpret the Bible from my "own point of view"?  When I quoted the Bible, such as Luke 19:27, I backed it up with a commentary written by a Christian scholar!  How is that my "point of view"?  LOL

On the other hand, you have admitted that you read the Quran based on what it "means" to you.  In other words, you admit that you read it with a certain level of bias.  You are not interested in what it actually says, just what you want it to say.

Originally posted by Caringheart

We are free to express what we think.  We are free to discuss and learn from the beliefs of others.  We need to understand what the other believes, to dispel misunderstanding.


If you were interested in "what the other believes, to dispel misunderstanding", you would not be (mis)quoting the Quran over and over again and then saying that your understanding is based on what the verses mean to you.  This just shows that you are not interested in "what the other believes..."  It is just another attempt by a phony to distract attention from her real agenda.  You should know that I absolutely despise phonies!  There have been many on this forum in the past.   

Originally posted by Caringheart

Yes, I am discussing the scriptures according to what they mean to me when I read them.  (Just as you are discussing the scriptures of others according to what they mean to you)   And if you can convince me that your scriptures mean something different, and that they do not mean to you what they mean to me... that is encouragement.


You still have not answered my question.  What a surprise! 

Who are you that I need to "convince" you?!  Do you think I care what a random person like you thinks about my religion or my holy book?  I could care less what an ignorant person like you thinks.  As I said, I am not interested in personal opinions.  I am interested in facts.  Facts are supported by evidence.  You have presented absolutely nothing in terms of evidence for any of your claims. 

And I certainly don't suffer from any any delusions that I would be able to "convince" you of anything.  I know that you have already made up your mind due to years of brainwashing and subjective and poor research.   

Now, back to the topic and the other questions that you have desperately tried to ignore:

Originally posted by Caringheart

You either deliberately twist, or just misunderstand about blind faith...
Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated
blind faith would be saying that God indeed ordered it... justifying killing with faith... supporting a claim that can not be proven (just as the radical Islamists are using what it says in the quran to justify killing even though there is no way to prove that what is said in the quran is from God)
However I say, I am not one to justify anything.  If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.  I am not one to judge.  I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.  According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.  But that is me in my own wisdom.  It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament,
then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.

This ridiculous argument can be used to excuse every atrocity.  By refusing to call evil what it is, because "God" allegedly ordered it, then one can excuse murder, rape and all around bad behavior.  By remaining silent on the issue, you are justifying it. 

I particularly like this utterly foolish statement:

"
It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament."       

"A God who says such things"?  Isn't this "God" the same as in the "New Testament"?

You also did not actually answer my question, but instead tried to dance around it, as usual.  I asked you:

"
"Killing babies is evil."  You are telling me that this statement cannot be substantiated?  I don't know whether to laugh or scream!  Your blind refusal to acknowledge evil as evil is both comedic and disturbing at the same time.  It's really weird."

Answer the question.  Can the statement "killing babies is evil" be "substantiated" or is it a statement of "blind faith"?  Think carefully now, if you have to.  Most other people would realize the truth immediately.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have not read all that you wrote.  I am responding to this one thing.
How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?  The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.  The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.  How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it?
The mistakes I am referring to are the mistakes of the Israelites in not following God's law.  We learn from the old testament the mistakes of the Israelites in their disobedience.  This is why the old testament has value even though we live by a new covenant.  We were addressing how one could not be loyal to the old testament but still gain wisdom and guidance from it.

'all scripture is useful for instruction'

What does this have to do with this topic?  Did the Israelites make a "mistake" when they butchered men, women, children and animals? 

So, in your view, the only use now for the "Old Testament" is to "remind" you of how the Israelites could not follow the law, even though you also do not follow the law!  What "wisdom" is there to gain from paying lip service to a book you don't even follow?

Originally posted by Caringheart

"You would love to prove that wouldn't you?"

Not really.  I would rather not believe than millions of people are being deceived and like innocent children being led astray.
I would dearly love for this not to be true.

But, in your view, it is still true, is it not?  Even though you "would rather not believe" that other people are "being deceived", you still think that is the case, right?  So, if you believe this, then this belief requires proof. 


Edited by islamispeace - 09 December 2012 at 11:16am
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2012 at 11:37am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Placid

Response: --- No, --- I am not a Jehovah’s Witness. --- The reason I have not answered before is because there were other questions in the same post that I want to answer as well, which we will get to later, but I have been busy on other posts and other things that take me away.
Since you want to dwell more on the OT, we will look at a little more in 1 Samuel before this terrible slaying and annihilation was done, for which we are sorry for, but are not responsible for.


So then what are you?  You say that Jesus is not God.  Well, this is the belief of the majority of "Christians".  Are you a Unitarian? 

I never said that you are "responsible" for the stories of infanticide in the Bible.  In fact, no one has made that accusation.  The issue is how can you believe that a just and compassionate God would allow the blood of innocents to be spilled in a mass orgy of senseless violence.  You are not responsible for the alleged killings because they allegedly happened thousands of years ago, but by refusing to see them as evil and counter to everything God has said He wants, you blaspheme against Him.  That is the issue. 

Making excuses for the slaughter only compounds the problem.

Originally posted by Placid

As you said, all of the destroying of generations in the Quran, simply removed the older generation and allowed the younger generation to replace them. --- But was that true?
--- Is that what it says in these verses?:
17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.
18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction.
21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return.
22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower!
25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction.
25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins).

--- What does the word ‘annihilation’ mean in 25:39? --- And when it adds the word ‘utter,’ --- would you suggest there was anything left?
 

It is referring to the annihilation of the older generation.  The subsequent generations had to come from somewhere.  They didn't just grow out of the earth, did they?  As Ibn Kathir notes in his commentary on Surah 6:6:

"(And created after them other generations.) so that We test the new generations, as well. Yet, they committed similar errors and were destroyed, as their ancestors were destroyed. Therefore, beware of the same end that might befall you, for you are not dearer to Allah than these previous nations, but the Messenger whom you defied is dearer to Allah than the Messengers they defied. Thus, you are more liable than them to receive torment, if it was not for Allah's mercy and kindness."


Also, as I said, the destruction of these nations was done by God, not by human armies supposedly following God's command.  Only God has the authority to destroy a nation.  He has not given that authority to mankind.  That is why Muslims are forbidden to kill non-combatants.  Genocide is strictly forbidden.  It was not forbidden for the Israelites, according to the Bible.

Originally posted by Placid

(When the Israelites were influenced by the idolatrous nations around, they became idolaters as well. --- When they repented and turned back to God, then He delivered them and restored their land that had been taken away.)

--- I don’t want to make the posts too long, but I know you will not read and understand it if I don’t give you the Scriptures.
I enjoy our discussions. --- We know there has always been God’s judgment on sin. --- So I will add more later, to see what happened in this case.


I am already aware of the excuses given for why the Israelites had to kill every living thing.  It makes no sense to destroy a nation because the Israelites sinned.  Each person is responsible for his/her own sins.  The Israelites sinned themselves, by worshiping the idols of the surrounding nations.  How does that justify sticking a sword into the soft flesh of an infant?  How does that justify staining the earth with the blood of the innocent?  How heartless were these Israelites that they could kill an infant without any hesitation?  This is extremely disturbing behavior and I am shocked as to what lengths you will go to justify or excuse it.

I will say this though.  I find your posts to be much more honest than that of Caringheart's, and I appreciate that.  Even though I completely disagree with your reasoning and am utterly shocked and disturbed by it, I still have nothing but respect for you because of your honesty. 


Edited by islamispeace - 09 December 2012 at 11:40am
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2012 at 6:27pm
Greetings islamispeace,

If you take the time to read all of my posts you will see that I use many sources... muslim and non-muslim.

I have actually been reading the quran because I thought the criticisms of it were unfair.  I could see where much of the criticism of some of what is in the quran is no different than what is in the old testament.

Would your rather I take the word of those who speak against the quran, without reading to judge for myself?

If I am not interested in what you believe then why do I thank you for sharing what you believe?
The bigger question is whether or not you can take a similar interest in understanding others in order to reach understanding and peace, or do you prefer to chase after dissention?  What would the Creator wish?

If you don't care what I think then why bother to engage in these discussions?

You are right, you don't need to convince me of anything, but if what you say offers encouragement then we are on a road to peace, and that should be the whole point of discussion.
"I know that you have already made up your mind due to years of brainwashing and subjective and poor research. "
There you go again saying that you know what I think.
It is a shame that you are so closed minded(or maybe you are just young), because you are wrong.

I have a question for you.
I don't see your allah of the quran as any different from the God of the old testament.  Your Allah orders killing in his name also.  So why are you making this argument against God of the old testament?

No, God of the old testament, by everything the old and new testament testify to, made the decision to 'do a new thing' (it is in the scriptures, prophesied in the old, fulfilled in the new)... He made a new covenant revealing a different aspect of Himself.  We who 'have ears to hear and eyes to see' follow the new covenant.

I have answered your question over and over, so there is really no point in your continuing to address me.  Here was, and is, my answer, again.
I say, I am not one to justify anything.  If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.  I am not one to judge.  I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.  According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.  But that is me in my own wisdom.  It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.
As far as the "law"... if you read my reply to Hasan... you must do some studying on Judaism to understand... you must know the whole of the scriptures.  The following is what I shared with Hasan.
There was the physical law - the law of rituals
and the spiritual law
If you do some study on Judaism it explains this much better than I can.
Jesus abolished the law of sacrifice.  He showed that clean and unclean has not to do with ritual but with what is in the heart.  He regularly revealed that the Pharisees, though they followed the letter of the law, were unclean because their hearts were far from God.
If one belongs to God He naturally follows the spiritual laws of God.

This is why it is so important to know all of the scriptures and not just part.  Full understanding can not come unless you know the whole of scripture.
You also overlook where I say... quoting the scriptures... 'all scripture is useful for instruction'.
It's not paying lip service to have learned not to go around killing people in the name of God.  We still gain from the scriptures the wisdom of how, and why, not to sin.  Does Islam teach about sin?  Aren't God's laws meant to keep us from sinning?  Isn't that the main purpose of the scriptures, and if they help us to do that, then there is the wisdom contained in them, correct?

Regarding proofs... There is no proof to be had except the proof that will come on judgement day.

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 09 December 2012 at 6:38pm
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2012 at 8:15am
Originally posted by islamispeace

What on earth does the punishment of Hellfire for those who deserve it due to the conscious choice they made have to do with killing babies, who represent everything that is innocent?  Do you realize how desperate you sound in trying to justify what any rational, God-fearing person would rightfully denounce as pure evil?  Why is it so hard for you to denounce evil? 

It is a sad tactic of yours to denigrate or insult others? Do you think that a valid form of argument?

There is no change of topic here but an attempt to ask you if the God of the OLd Testament is the same as the Allah of Islam? Hence. the question about Allah burning off skin and splashing water as hot as molten metal in peoples faces for eternity - so what is your answer?
Let me know if you agree or disagree:1.  God is good.2. God is not evil.3. God commands good.4. God does not command evil.5. Charity is good.6. God commands charity.7. Killing babies is evil.8. God does not command killing babies. They are not even moral dilemmas...at least not to normal, rational people. I guess that does not include you guys

If we are talking about about the God of the Bible lets look at your item "God does not command evil" and I think I might agree with that but the question is who DECIDES what is evil? For example, Biblically the injunction is for one man and one wife so any God who commands anything different is commanding evil. Charity is indeed good but where does it originate - well the Bible in 1 Corinthians 13 tells us that it originates in or out of love - so love sees no race or creed and give to anyone in need - is this how you see it also?
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2012 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by honeto

I believe that God has never ordered indiscriminate killings of innocent people ... by another people who are suppose to value life and be good. Hasan
Good to hear Hasan.Then I should never have to fear being killed by you or any other who believes as you do.salaam,CH


Caringheart,
unless you commit murder or cause mischief on the land,according to the Quran.
So now going back to the original issue, how did such injustices (killing of innocent people, babies, and animals) creep into OT and claimed to be words of God?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2012 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by honeto

going back to the original issue, how did such injustices (killing of innocent people, babies, and animals) creep into OT and claimed to be words of God?
Hasan


answered and done.
peace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2012 at 5:31pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

If you take the time to read all of my posts you will see that I use many sources... muslim and non-muslim.


That's a load of BS.  In none of your responses to me did you provide any sources, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, with the exception of the article by a Catholic apologist in your last post.  I have asked you on numerous occasions to provide your sources and you have always ignored my request.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have actually been reading the quran because I thought the criticisms of it were unfair.  I could see where much of the criticism of some of what is in the quran is no different than what is in the old testament.

Would your rather I take the word of those who speak against the quran, without reading to judge for myself?


You already do!  LOL  That is clear by the fact that many of your claims against the Quran mimic the claims of "those who speak against the Quran".  For example, you foolishly referred to Surah al-Tawba ("kill them whereever you find them) and claimed that it was proof of the similarity between the Quran and the "Old Testament".  Like many other ignoramuses and "those who speak against the Quran", you quoted the verse completely out of context and made a false claim about it.  I know from experience that this verse is one of the favorites of anti-Islamic buffoons.  The same claim you made, I have already heard many times from other like-minded people.

Originally posted by Caringheart

If I am not interested in what you believe then why do I thank you for sharing what you believe?
The bigger question is whether or not you can take a similar interest in understanding others in order to reach understanding and peace, or do you prefer to chase after dissention?  What would the Creator wish?


It is perfectly clear from your posts that you are not interested in "understanding".  You are a phony.  You pretend to be interested in dialogue and "understanding" but your posts show otherwise.

Originally posted by Caringheart

If you don't care what I think then why bother to engage in these discussions?


Um...haven't I already made this clear?  I am interested in facts, not opinions.  That is why I "engage in these discussions."  It is to determine the facts and refute the lies, inshaAllah. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You are right, you don't need to convince me of anything, but if what you say offers encouragement then we are on a road to peace, and that should be the whole point of discussion.
  

It doesn't matter to me if it gives you "encouragement".  If you had already done the research that you claim you have done, you would already be encouraged, instead of repeating ad nauseum the same cliched arguments against Islam, the Quran and of course Muhammad (pbuh).  Therefore, it is clear to me that the purpose of you being here is not to achieve "understanding" or "peace". 

Originally posted by Caringheart

"I know that you have already made up your mind due to years of brainwashing and subjective and poor research. "
There you go again saying that you know what I think.
It is a shame that you are so closed minded(or maybe you are just young), because you are wrong.


Sure, sure.  I am simply making observations based on what I have read in your posts.  If you think I am wrong, then you need to do a better job of proving it.  It is amply clear from your posts that you are not interested in learning about Islam.  How could you be?  You repeat the same ridiculous arguments that any person with no idea about Islam would make.  Don't blame me for your own failures.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have a question for you.
I don't see your allah of the quran as any different from the God of the old testament.  Your Allah orders killing in his name also.  So why are you making this argument against God of the old testament?
  

You still don't get it, do you?  The "God" of the "Old Testament" orders the killing of innocent people, including infants!  Allah (swt) does not.  That is the topic of this thread.  There is a difference between killing infants and killing enemy combatants.  Are you so dense and disturbed that you can't see that?

Originally posted by Caringheart

No, God of the old testament, by everything the old and new testament testify to, made the decision to 'do a new thing' (it is in the scriptures, prophesied in the old, fulfilled in the new)... He made a new covenant revealing a different aspect of Himself.  We who 'have ears to hear and eyes to see' follow the new covenant.
 

Actually, you close your "ears" and "eyes" to the plain truth about the slaughter the "God" of the "Old Testament" ordered.  You think that because there is a "new covenant" (which will expire as I showed), somehow we can forget about the horrific acts committed in the past.  Basically, you are saying "it was in the past; what's done is done".  What kind of sicko thinks this way?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I say, I am not one to justify anything.  If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.  I am not one to judge.  I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.  According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.  But that is me in my own wisdom.  It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.


Wow...arrogance, pride and blind faith, all rolled into one! 

Furthermore, you still have not answered my question, silly!  Here it is again for like the fifth time:

""Killing babies is evil."  You are telling me that this statement cannot be substantiated?  I don't know whether to laugh or scream!  Your blind refusal to acknowledge evil as evil is both comedic and disturbing at the same time.  It's really weird."

I am asking you if the statement "killing babies is evil" can be substantiated or not. 
Answer the question.

Originally posted by Caringheart

As far as the "law"... if you read my reply to Hasan... you must do some studying on Judaism to understand... you must know the whole of the scriptures.  The following is what I shared with Hasan.
There was the physical law - the law of rituals
and the spiritual law
If you do some study on Judaism it explains this much better than I can.
Jesus abolished the law of sacrifice.  He showed that clean and unclean has not to do with ritual but with what is in the heart.  He regularly revealed that the Pharisees, though they followed the letter of the law, were unclean because their hearts were far from God.
If one belongs to God He naturally follows the spiritual laws of God.
 

The views of Judaism are irrelevant here, especially since neither one of us is a Jew.  I have found that Christians tend to completely misrepresent Judaism for their own purposes.  You are not a representative of Judaism, so why are you speaking on behalf of it?  Without evidence, your claims about the Jewish law are nothing but uncorroborated opinions.

Moreover, none of this explains why "God" commanded the Israelites to kill infants.  It is a distraction, but one which only affects Christians who can sleep better at night by trying to distance themselves from the Old Testament as much as possible.

Originally posted by Caringheart

You also overlook where I say... quoting the scriptures... 'all scripture is useful for instruction'.
It's not paying lip service to have learned not to go around killing people in the name of God.  We still gain from the scriptures the wisdom of how, and why, not to sin.  Does Islam teach about sin?  Aren't God's laws meant to keep us from sinning?  Isn't that the main purpose of the scriptures, and if they help us to do that, then there is the wisdom contained in them, correct?
    

Again, none of this explains why your "scripture" talks about killing infants.  The Israelites were not "sinning" when they were marauding through the Holy Land, killing everything in their path.  This is psychotic behavior, and for Christians to claim that it was God's commandment is asick and perverse lie against God, who is just and compassionate. 

When I said you were paying "lip service" to the Tanakh, I explained why I thought so.  I said:

"So, in your view, the only use now for the "Old Testament" is to "remind" you of how the Israelites could not follow the law, even though you also do not follow the law!  What "wisdom" is there to gain from paying lip service to a book you don't even follow?"


You don't follow the Tanakh.  You only use it to when it suits your purpose.  Therefore, you only pay "lip service" to it. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Regarding proofs... There is no proof to be had except the proof that will come on judgement day.


Says one whose faith is blind.  What would be the use of such "proof" if by then it would too late to acknowledge it?  How can God expect us to believe in Him if He does not give us sound proof?  What do you think will happen on Judgement Day when the "proof" is finally laid bare for all to see?  Will God say to all (including the disbelievers who wanted proof):

"Good game everyone.  Let's all go to Paradise!"

Or will He say to those who did not believe:

"Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting damnation!"     

What does the Bible say on this matter? Wink 


Edited by islamispeace - 10 December 2012 at 5:36pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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