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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 8:54pm
"you try to insist that you are right."

Actually I believe I told you that I was encouraged by what you say the verse in question means to you.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
I think we then agree that OT and those quotes that are subject of our discussion are a problem. They are not inline with justice and mercy the followers of NT and FT (the Quran) profess.
I would like to know what you think happened here, in the OT?
Hasan


Greetings Hasan,
I can not, and do not, try to explain why God would order such killing.  Have you read what I wrote to islamispeace?  My answer is in there.
Salaam to you,
CH
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 07 December 2012 at 9:28am
Hi Islam

Quote: (I said) --- You notice too, that the Calendar was restarted with the life of Jesus, the Christ.
Here was the way to view the OT, --- after the NT began. --- It is like closing a door that has a large window in it. --- The door is closed, --- but whenever you want to look out at WHAT WAS, --- you can do that. --- But the focus is on the future.

(You said): Even if the "door is closed", it does not change the fact that when it was "open", horrible things were being done, and it was claimed that God had commanded them. It seems to me that "the door" should have been closed much sooner.
--- I asked you before if you were a Jehovah's Witness and you didn't answer. Are you? I am curious.

Response: --- No, --- I am not a Jehovah’s Witness. --- The reason I have not answered before is because there were other questions in the same post that I want to answer as well, which we will get to later, but I have been busy on other posts and other things that take me away.
Since you want to dwell more on the OT, we will look at a little more in 1 Samuel before this terrible slaying and annihilation was done, for which we are sorry for, but are not responsible for.

As you said, all of the destroying of generations in the Quran, simply removed the older generation and allowed the younger generation to replace them. --- But was that true?
--- Is that what it says in these verses?:
17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.
18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction.
21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return.
22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower!
25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction.
25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins).

--- What does the word ‘annihilation’ mean in 25:39? --- And when it adds the word ‘utter,’ --- would you suggest there was anything left?

In the Book of Samuel, it shows how God dealt with the enemies of Israel, when they trusted in Him. Notice this example, in 1 Samuel 7:
3 Then Samuel spoke to all the house of Israel, saying, “If you return to the Lord with all your hearts, then put away the foreign gods and the Ashtoreths from among you, and prepare your hearts for the Lord, and serve Him only; and He will deliver you from the hand of the Philistines.”
4 So the children of Israel put away the Baals and the Ashtoreths, and served the Lord only.
5 And Samuel said, “Gather all Israel to Mizpah, and I will pray to the Lord for you.”
6 So they gathered together at Mizpah, drew water, and poured it out before the Lord. And they fasted that day, and said there, “We have sinned against the Lord.” And Samuel judged the children of Israel at Mizpah.
7 Now when the Philistines heard that the children of Israel had gathered together at Mizpah, the lords of the Philistines went up against Israel. And when the children of Israel heard of it, they were afraid of the Philistines.
8 So the children of Israel said to Samuel, “Do not cease to cry out to the Lord our God for us, that He may save us from the hand of the Philistines.”
9 And Samuel took a suckling lamb and offered it as a whole burnt offering to the Lord. Then Samuel cried out to the Lord for Israel, and the Lord answered him.
10 Now as Samuel was offering up the burnt offering, the Philistines drew near to battle against Israel. But the Lord thundered with a loud thunder upon the Philistines that day, and so confused them that they were overcome before Israel.
11 And the men of Israel went out of Mizpah and pursued the Philistines, and drove them back as far as below Beth Car.
12 Then Samuel took a stone and set it up between Mizpah and Shen, and called its name Ebenezer,[c] saying, “Thus far the Lord has helped us.”
13 So the Philistines were subdued, and they did not come anymore into the territory of Israel. And the hand of the Lord was against the Philistines all the days of Samuel.
14 Then the cities which the Philistines had taken from Israel were restored to Israel, from Ekron to Gath; and Israel recovered its territory from the hands of the Philistines.
--- (When the Israelites were influenced by the idolatrous nations around, they became idolaters as well. --- When they repented and turned back to God, then He delivered them and restored their land that had been taken away.)

--- I don’t want to make the posts too long, but I know you will not read and understand it if I don’t give you the Scriptures.
I enjoy our discussions. --- We know there has always been God’s judgment on sin. --- So I will add more later, to see what happened in this case.


Placid

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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 07 December 2012 at 4:15pm
Caringheart,
that's a contradictory statement. I wonder how you hold it as part of divine guidance, holy book, but cannot cope to agree or live with it? Must be hard?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 07 December 2012 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings islamispeace,I have not read all that you wrote.  I am responding to this one thing.
How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?  The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.  The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.  How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it?
The mistakes I am referring to are the mistakes of the Israelites in not following God's law.  We learn from the old testament the mistakes of the Israelites in their disobedience.  This is why the old testament has value even though we live by a new covenant.  We were addressing how one could not be loyal to the old testament but still gain wisdom and guidance from it.'all scripture is useful for instruction'




CAringheart,
we are not talking about mistakes or disobedience, rather commands that are associated with God and addressed to the "Jews" to kill everyone of those who did not believe as they did. So do not try to cover that truth up by distorting it.
I believe that God has never ordered such indiscriminate killings of innocent people including babies and animals by another people who are suppose to value life and be good. That's the dilemma we are talking about and you seem to agree that it is not a good command to follow. But then you are trying to distort this to make it look something else.
On top, the saying of Jesus (pbuh) according to the NT suggests, that his followers have to live and fulfill every iota of the OT laws. While you say you don't! Where does that take you?

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 07 December 2012 at 5:01pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 07 December 2012 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by honeto


I believe that God has never ordered indiscriminate killings of innocent people ... by another people who are suppose to value life and be good.
Hasan


Good to hear Hasan.
Then I should never have to fear being killed by you or any other who believes as you do.
salaam,
CH
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2012 at 2:11pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have not read all that you wrote.  I am responding to this one thing.
How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?  The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.  The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.  How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it?
The mistakes I am referring to are the mistakes of the Israelites in not following God's law.  We learn from the old testament the mistakes of the Israelites in their disobedience.  This is why the old testament has value even though we live by a new covenant.  We were addressing how one could not be loyal to the old testament but still gain wisdom and guidance from it.

'all scripture is useful for instruction'


What does this have to do with this topic?  Did the Israelites make a "mistake" when they butchered men, women, children and animals? 

So, in your view, the only use now for the "Old Testament" is to "remind" you of how the Israelites could not follow the law, even though you also do not follow the law!  What "wisdom" is there to gain from paying lip service to a book you don't even follow?

Originally posted by Caringheart

"You would love to prove that wouldn't you?"

Not really.  I would rather not believe than millions of people are being deceived and like innocent children being led astray.
I would dearly love for this not to be true.


But, in your view, it is still true, is it not?  Even though you "would rather not believe" that other people are "being deceived", you still think that is the case, right?  So, if you believe this, then this belief requires proof. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

"you try to insist that you are right."

Actually I believe I told you that I was encouraged by what you say the verse in question means to you.


But if you had done the "research" you claim to have done, would you not already have been "encouraged" and understood how the majority of Muslims have interpreted those verses?  Yet, you claimed that you were reading the verses as you understood them.  This is a very deceptive tactic, and one which shows your bias.  How is your view of those verses representative of 1.5 billion Muslims?  Who are you, a Christian, to interpret the Quran, the holy book of Islam, from your own point of view and then tell Muslims what their book says?  Talk about arrogance.        
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2012 at 7:52pm
Greetings islamispeace,
"Islam's history and nature is far too complex to be treated in a brief study. The very term Islam' is equivocal - its sects far exceed in variety and number the almost uncountable sects of Protestant Christianity. To speak indiscriminately of 'Muslims' as if all Muslims believed the same thing, or as if Islam and the Qur'an meant the same thing to all of them, is misleading." (http://jloughnan.tripod.com/3f_islam.htm)

What about you?
in your own words...
Who are you, a muslim, to interpret the Judeo-Christian scriptures, the holy scriptures, from your own point of view and then tell others what their scripture says?

What are your credentials to make judgements about what the scriptures of others say?

We are free to express what we think.  We are free to discuss and learn from the beliefs of others.  We need to understand what the other believes, to dispel misunderstanding.

Yes, I am discussing the scriptures according to what they mean to me when I read them.  (Just as you are discussing the scriptures of others according to what they mean to you)   And if you can convince me that your scriptures mean something different, and that they do not mean to you what they mean to me... that is encouragement.

Salaam,
CH



Edited by Caringheart - 08 December 2012 at 7:53pm
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