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Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 05 December 2012 at 7:34pm
also for Hasan,

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.  - the words of Jesus (book of Matthew)


Edited by Caringheart - 05 December 2012 at 7:36pm
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 05 December 2012 at 7:39pm
for islamispeace,

RE:  humility

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. - a parable of Jesus (book of Luke)

and love;

Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.

41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.

42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave the most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. - the words of Jesus (book of Luke)



Edited by Caringheart - 05 December 2012 at 7:48pm
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 12:08pm
Hi Islam

(Sorry to have missed your busy weekend but this is to continue from the top of Page 3):
This was my response to Honeto when he said, Quote: “so according to your book, God ordered killings of man and women who do not believe as you do.”

Correction: --- According to our Book, the New Testament, --- God didn’t order any killings of anyone. --- We refer to the OT, but we are under a new “Code” of --- Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. --- Which fulfills the Ten Commandments, and the prophecy of a “New Covenant” in Jeremiah 31, --- and the fulfillment in Hebrews 8.

--- Can you find any killing of infants in the NT apart from what King Herod ordered in Matthew 2:16, which was the first attempt of Satan to kill Jesus?

I will explain again that the New Covenant was based on the Prophecies of the Old Covenant, --- but as it says in Romans 10:
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

You see, --- In the New Covenant, --- there is persecution, but no rebellion, no violence, no killing of adults, in vengeance, --- and no killing of babies.

However, I wanted to ask Honeto, --- and I will ask you as well, “What is written in ‘your book’?”

Surah 6:6 See they not how many of those before them We did destroy? - generations We had established on the earth, in strength such as We have not given to you - for whom We poured out rain from the skies in abundance, and gave (fertile) streams flowing beneath their (feet): yet for their sins We destroyed them, and raised in their wake fresh generations (to succeed them).
10:13 We destroyed the generations before you when they did wrong; and their messengers (from Allah) came unto them with clear proofs (of His Sovereignty) but they would not believe. Thus do We reward the guilty folk.
17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.
18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction.
21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return.
22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower!
25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction.
25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins).
29:31 When Our Apostles came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime."
29:40 Each one of them We seized for his crime: of them, against some We sent a violent tornado (with showers of stones); some were caught by a (mighty) Blast; some We caused the earth to swallow up; and some We drowned (in the waters): It was not Allah Who injured (or oppressed) them: They injured (and oppressed) their own souls.
32:26 Does it not teach them a lesson, how many generations We destroyed before them, in whose dwellings they (now) go to and fro? Verily in that are Signs: Do they not then listen?
38:3 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved!
50:36 But how many generations before them did We destroy (for their sins), - stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land: was there any place of escape (for them)?

--- You notice too, that the Calendar was restarted with the life of Jesus, the Christ.
Here was the way to view the OT, --- after the NT began. --- It is like closing a door that has a large window in it. --- The door is closed, --- but whenever you want to look out at WHAT WAS, --- you can do that. --- But the focus is on the future.
Jesus said “Follow Me.” And Jesus has gone on ahead --- This instruction is also given in Surah 3:
50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

--- And the promised reward of following Jesus is so good that we don’t want to look back.
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection.


Placid

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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 2:05pm
Caringheart,
I think we then agree that OT and those quotes that are subject of our discussion are a problem. They are not inline with justice and mercy the followers of NT and FT (the Quran) profess.
I would like to know what you think happened here, in the OT?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 6:17pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I respect your opinion.  I hope you can respect that my position and my experience is different from yours.
I understand, you do not feel safe to argue with God.  I on the other hand feel perfectly safe in doing so.
My God is a loving Father who gave me a mind and a free will, and one who understands and does not expect me to be without questions.  How could I not have questions when the mind of God is so much greater than my own?


You still don't realize how self-contradictory all your "opinions" are.  You preach to me about "pride" and "humility" yet you say that you "argue" with God.  You say God gave you "a mind and a free will", yet you can't bring yourself around to using common sense and admitting that something evil is indeed evil.  At that point, you simply consign yourself to the excuse that "God knows best" (despite claiming at the same time that you "argue" with Him).  Uh-huh...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Re:
"I believe that God is one.  Do I know it of a certainty?  Could I end up being wrong?  Could the whole Judeo teaching be a made up story?  Of course it could.  Does Jesus appearance on this earth confirm the stories though?  For me, yes, He does."
It's all about belief.  Isn't that what I have been saying all along?


I responded to this statement and pointed out how utterly contradictory it is.  How can your "beliefs" be "confirmed" yet you still think that they "could" be wrong?  What is the purpose of "belief" if you have doubts?  The fact that you have doubts yet still cling to your "beliefs" shows that your faith is blind.

Originally posted by Caringheart

You said;
"In short, I believe the Biblical stories of genocide are Satanic lies which were inserted into the Bible after the fact."
Since you are allowed to say this then I should also be allowed to say the following...
that I believe that the word given to Muhammad is a deception of satan.


You would love to prove that wouldn't you?  LOL

You conveniently ignored what I said in response to your absurd questions about God and Satan.  You asked:

"Do you not believe that Lucifer corrupted the creation?  Did God know that Lucifer was going to be a fallen angel, that Lucifer would challenge God's supreme being and seek to destroy His creation?"

In response to these nonsensical questions, I wrote:

"What the heck does that have to do with the Bible's claim that God (and NOT Satan) commanded the Israelites to kill infants and children? 

Do I believe that Satan has corrupted mankind?  Yes, of course.  That explains why the Bible dares implicate the just and good Creator of the universe with pure evil.  In short, I believe the Biblical stories of genocide are Satanic lies which were inserted into the Bible after the fact."

Originally posted by Caringheart

I'm sorry that you do not understand the things I write and that you get them twisted.  I don't imagine going over and over it will help.
I am discussing not a parent punishing their children but a parent losing their children and that, that causes pain.  Just as when God loses His 'children', His creation, it causes Him pain.  We are His children, even more so than our own human children are our children, because He created us, all of us.  That makes all of us His children... His creation.  Without God there are no children.


You really do have a short memory.  You brought up the parent-child analogy in your response on 12/3 in which you stated:

"Let me ask... Do you love your children... assuming that you have any... if not, did your parents love you?  Do you not punish your children... or did your parents punish you?  Is it unloving to do so, or are you trying to assert any means to get your children onto a right path?  Would it be loving to never discipline your children and allow them to go their own way, without warning them that there would be consequences, some which are irreversible?  Would it not hurt to lose them to satan in spite of all your efforts?  Do you see that this can happen?
God gives every chance to choose Him, but if we do not belong to Him can He allow us to enter into heaven, the purest of places?  Can a corrupt thing enter into purity?  Or must a corrupt thing go to be where corruption is."


As you can see, you clearly compared parents disciplining their children to God punishing His "children" with eternal damnation.  Don't blame me for "twisting" your words when you can't even remember what you wrote. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Have you never heard of learning from mistakes?  It is said that a truly wise person learns from the mistakes of others.
" A fool learns from his own mistakes, A wise man learns from the mistakes of others"
The old testament shows us all the mistakes made by God's people, though we are not bound to living any longer by old testament ways.
  

How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?  The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.  The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.  How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it?

Originally posted by Caringheart

What I know of the Qur'an is what I get from reading it myself.  Unlike you suggest, I have not been told any 'lies' about the Qur'an.  Perhaps you go by what you are told.  I investigate for myself.


You sound like a used-car salesperson, trying to sell an obviously deficient car by promoting your credentials.  I proved how you misquoted the Quran on numerous occasions.  You have lied on several occasions about what the Quran says but instead of admitting that you are wrong, you try to insist that you are right.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Not in the instance I am referring to.  Are you too lazy to go back and see for yourself?  or afraid to admit that I am correct?  It's ok, it doesn't matter.  My question was answered and that is all that matters.
 

I have checked and I know that you are wrong! Big%20smile

Given your short memory, it makes sense that you can't remember.  I won't play this childish game with you.  But...do try to remember.  Come on, you can do it!  All it takes is a little effort.  Go back to when our conversation began and you will see that you are wrong and that acting like a child only damages your reputation more.  Here is a little hint for you: my post from 11/28.  Now, don't be lazy or afraid to find out that you are wrong.  If you want to insist on your childishness, then so be it.  

Originally posted by Caringheart

I obviously do not fail in, as you say, 'my paraphrasing' because you knew exactly what surah I was referring to.  However I was not paraphrasing,
"I was expressing in my own words what the qur'an means to me."   There is a difference.  I am telling you what it says to me.  If you tell me that it means something different to you, that is good.  I am then encouraged.


That just shows that you are not interested in facts but rather upholding your own ignorant opinions.  In contrast to you, I am interested in what a text actually says, not what it "means" to me.  I am interested in the facts. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You feel free to challenge my scriptures, I also say to you, I feel that it is you who follow the word of a man and not God.  Is one of us wrong, neither or us wrong, or both of us wrong?
  

The difference is that I provide supporting evidence for my claims.  All you have done is make vague claims, most of which I have refuted.  So to answer your question:

"Is one of us wrong, neither or us wrong, or both of us wrong?"

The answer is obvious.  Both of us cannot be right.  We could both be wrong about certain issues, but the evidence shown so far in this thread has shown that you are wrong about the issues we have discussed.  What else can explain your contradictions, inconsistencies, absurd logic and complete absence of evidence?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I love the way you can throw insults at a person just for having a conversation, calling them lazy and liar just because you do not like the things they say.  I am not lazy but I am having a conversation, not a classroom debate and not looking for a grade.  I am sharing in conversation.  You are free to disagree.  I disagree with you plenty but I do not feel the need to insult you, your character, your integrity, or your beliefs.


Don't blame me for seeing it as it is!  I am not afraid to tell people what I think of them.  If you have such thin-skin, that's your problem.  As it stands, I showed why I think you are a liar and a lazy person.  You have not done much to prove me wrong besides complaining.  Until you do, expect the same type of treatment and get over it.

Originally posted by Caringheart

The surah we are discussing...
It doesn't refer to asking about the blessings given...
It refers to "those who have been reading the Book from before thee" ... what those before thee have read in the Book... those who have had the Word of God before thee.


This is what I wrote:

"Here is what the Quran actually says:

"We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.  If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt." (10:93-94)

As you can see, the verses were simply saying that if any Muslims have any doubt about the many blessings God poured upon the Jews, that they should ask the Jews themselves.  The Quran was not suggesting that Muslims should consult the Jews or Christians about scripture."


The verses are telling the Muslims that if they have any doubts about how God "settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place and provided for them sustenance of the best" (i.e. blessed them), that they should ask the Jews themselves (i.e. "those who have been reading the Book from before thee"), who would confirm these verses.  There is nothing in the verse that says Muslims should consult the Jews for spiritual guidance. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

My word means nothing to you so you must seek for yourself.  I will share with you what I know, then it is up to you to verify it to your own satisfaction.  We come here to learn.  Learning takes place by investigating for ones self what others have to say.


This is the excuse of a person who has no evidence for any of her claims.  When poked and prodded to provide evidence, the answer is "go find it yourself".  It's like that commercial for Carfax.  You are a used-car salesperson and I am the customer.  I am asking you to "show me the Carfax!"  As the salespeople in the commercials, you just stall and make excuses.  LOL

Originally posted by Caringheart

Are you also aware of how convoluted the 'facts' are in some sources... Egyptian textbooks for instance... How about those that teach that Jews require blood to make matzo... what about those 'facts' that have been believed by many?  Do you seek facts from sources on both sides of the argument?  I do.  (By the way, that is the definition of not being lazy)


I seek facts from academic and scholarly sources.  Where do you seek "facts"?  I am dying to know!

Originally posted by Caringheart

This is the face of Islam that you present to the world.  It is not a good face and you wonder why people do not see good in Islam?


Who cares what those people think?  As I said, I am interested in factsThat does not mean I don't tolerate people's opinions.  It just means that I do not care about people's opinions, because opinions are not facts.  Opinions can be based on misinformation.  They are the opposite of facts.  Let me give you an example:

Say a racist bigot says that Latinos are taking jobs from hard-working Americans.  This is an opinion.  The facts are completely different, because many Latinos are forced to take jobs which no one else will take.  The fact is that they are not stealing jobs from anyone.  One statement is a racist opinion, devoid of any facts.  The other statement is a fact.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Here are a few instances:
"Your views and opinions mean nothing to me.  My hope is that other people who read these posts will benefit.  When I talk with people like you, it is with the understanding that 99% of the time, you will refuse to acknowledge the facts."
Your facts.  You have all the answers, and could not possibly be wrong.


Where did I say that I have all the answers?  Where did I say that I cannot "possibly be wrong"?  All I said was that it was my hope that other people who are more open to the facts will accept what I have stated.  I am confident that they will accept my claims as factually accurate because I have provided the evidence.  How you misconstrue that think it means that I think I have all the answers is beyond me.

Thank you for proving once again that you are a deceptive and foolish individual. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You know what is in my mind, and of course you could not be wrong.


From what I have seen and read in your posts so far? Sure!  Don't blame me for having an impression of you based on what you have written.  I would get the same impression if someone refused to admit that the Holocaust was evil.  You are the one who has refused to state that killing babies is evil.  That is what is in your mind, right?  I am simply making an observation based on my observations.  If you want to blame someone, then blame yourself for not listening to your God-given common sense.

Originally posted by Caringheart

and you are absolutely certain, with proof, beyond even the shadow of a doubt, that your beliefs could not be wrong, even though they are just that... beliefs.
 

On the issues we have discussed so far?  Yes.  How does that prove that I think that I know everything?  This is typical "Caringheart" logic!

Now with regard to the central topic of this thread, yes, I am certain, "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that killing babies is evil and that God could not have ordered such barbarous behavior.  I am not afraid to say that, unlike you. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You either deliberately twist, or just misunderstand about blind faith...
Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated
blind faith would be saying that God indeed ordered it... justifying killing with faith... supporting a claim that can not be proven (just as the radical Islamists are using what it says in the quran to justify killing even though there is no way to prove that what is said in the quran is from God)
However I say, I am not one to justify anything.  If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.  I am not one to judge.  I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.  According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.  But that is me in my own wisdom.  It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.


This ridiculous argument can be used to excuse every atrocity.  By refusing to call evil what it is, because "God" allegedly ordered it, then one can excuse murder, rape and all around bad behavior.  By remaining silent on the issue, you are justifying it. 

I particularly like this utterly foolish statement:

"
It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament."       

"A God who says such things"?  Isn't this "God" the same as in the "New Testament"?

You also did not actually answer my question, but instead tried to dance around it, as usual.  I asked you:

"
"Killing babies is evil."  You are telling me that this statement cannot be substantiated?  I don't know whether to laugh or scream!  Your blind refusal to acknowledge evil as evil is both comedic and disturbing at the same time.  It's really weird."

Answer the question.  Can the statement "killing babies is evil" be "substantiated" or is it a statement of "blind faith"?  Think carefully now, if you have to.  Most other people would realize the truth immediately.

Originally posted by Caringheart

And you say that you do not argue with God.  If God indeed ordered it, then you are arguing with God.  By not believing God ordered it, you may very well be arguing with God.
You do argue with God.  It's just you have more trust in your own wisdom.
I am not afraid to say that I argue with God.


You are a fool.  In case it is not painfully clear by now, I know for sure that God did not order such monstrous behavior.  Not my God.  You lie against God if you think He did.  I would hate to be you on the Day you meet him. 

So, no.  I don't "argue" with God, because I know, based on the knowledge that God is just and compassionate, that He did not order the killing of babies.  The only ones I am arguing against are hypocritical blasphemers like you who think that God is willing to order such merciless slaughter, and have the audacity to complain about the Quran. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 7:29pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Placid, you said:

Originally posted by Placid

Correction: --- According to our Book, the New Testament, --- God didn’t order any killings of anyone. --- We refer to the OT, but we are under a new “Code” of --- Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. --- Which fulfills the Ten Commandments, and the prophecy of a “New Covenant” in Jeremiah 31, --- and the fulfillment in Hebrews 8.


Brother Hasan was referring to the Tanakh, what you call the "Old Testament".  Do you not regard it as "scripture"?

The argument that in the "New Testament", God does not order any killings is a distraction from the fact that in the "Old Testament", He does.  What the NT says does not change what the OT says.  You regard both as scripture, so the moral dilemma remains.

Originally posted by Placid

-- Can you find any killing of infants in the NT apart from what King Herod ordered in Matthew 2:16, which was the first attempt of Satan to kill Jesus?


Of course not, but the Jesus of the "New Testament" never actually denounced the killings of infants in the "Old Testament" as evil and wrong, did he?  By not even considering it to be an issue, yet preaching nonviolence at the same time, does not make things all hunky-dory.  

I am glad you brought up the "Massacre of the Innocents" episode mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew.  It only proves my point about infanticide.  Imagine how the Jewish mothers must have felt, assuming Herod did actually order the killings of all male children under 2 years of age, when soldiers came and massacred their babies.  Now think about how the Canaanite women must have felt to watch their babies slaughtered before their very eyes. 

Originally posted by Placid

will explain again that the New Covenant was based on the Prophecies of the Old Covenant, --- but as it says in Romans 10:
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

You see, --- In the New Covenant, --- there is persecution, but no rebellion, no violence, no killing of adults, in vengeance, --- and no killing of babies.


I agree but that is not the issue.  You are trying to reduce the "Old Testament's" significance by appealing to the "New Testament" but none of that changes the fact that in the "Old Testament", horrible things were done.  The argument that "it was in the past" and "what's done is done" should be unacceptable to any rational person.

Originally posted by Placid

However, I wanted to ask Honeto, --- and I will ask you as well, “What is written in ‘your book’?”

Surah 6:6 See they not how many of those before them We did destroy? - generations We had established on the earth, in strength such as We have not given to you - for whom We poured out rain from the skies in abundance, and gave (fertile) streams flowing beneath their (feet): yet for their sins We destroyed them, and raised in their wake fresh generations (to succeed them).
10:13 We destroyed the generations before you when they did wrong; and their messengers (from Allah) came unto them with clear proofs (of His Sovereignty) but they would not believe. Thus do We reward the guilty folk.
17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.
18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction.
21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return.
22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower!
25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction.
25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins).
29:31 When Our Apostles came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime."
29:40 Each one of them We seized for his crime: of them, against some We sent a violent tornado (with showers of stones); some were caught by a (mighty) Blast; some We caused the earth to swallow up; and some We drowned (in the waters): It was not Allah Who injured (or oppressed) them: They injured (and oppressed) their own souls.
32:26 Does it not teach them a lesson, how many generations We destroyed before them, in whose dwellings they (now) go to and fro? Verily in that are Signs: Do they not then listen?
38:3 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved!
50:36 But how many generations before them did We destroy (for their sins), - stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land: was there any place of escape (for them)?


I already dealt with this.  Did you read my response to you on 11/28?  The verses above refer to God's punishment of sinful nations.  In other words, God Himself brought down His wrath on these people.  He did not order an army of humans to go and kill every living thing. 

When God commanded believers to fight against their enemies, who were persecuting them for shunning their false gods and worshiping only God, He explicitly forbid the killing of unarmed civilians, especially women and children.  It was only allowed to fight and kill enemy combatants. 

Moreover, if you notice in Surah 6:6, it clearly states that after the sinful generation was destroyed, another generation took its place.  Obviously, this new generation came from somewhere.  They were the offspring of the previous generations that were destroyed and they were warned not to follow in the footsteps of their ancestors, lest the same punishment overtake them as well.  In short, God did not just kill everyone.

Originally posted by Placid

--- You notice too, that the Calendar was restarted with the life of Jesus, the Christ.
Here was the way to view the OT, --- after the NT began. --- It is like closing a door that has a large window in it. --- The door is closed, --- but whenever you want to look out at WHAT WAS, --- you can do that. --- But the focus is on the future.


Even if the "door is closed", it does not change the fact that when it was "open", horrible things were being done, and it was claimed that God had commanded them.  It seems to me that "the door" should have been closed much sooner.

Also, let me point out in reference to the "future" you speak of, as I pointed out to "Caringheart" before, the Bible says that Jesus (pbuh) will apparently return and destroy all who rejected him.  So, using your analogy, "the door" will apparently be "reopened".  Someone apparently forgot to lock it.  Luke 19:27 states this clearly:

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”"

I asked you before if you were a Jehovah's Witness and you didn't answer.  Are you?  I am curious.

I also asked you why you were trying to find excuses for the acts of genocide and infanticide found in the Tanakh.  At first you said that you had "no comment" but then immediately afterwards, you attempted to find excuses for this senseless slaughter.  What if it had been your child, God forbid?  How would you have felt?  How would that have brought you closer to God, if the people killing your child were claiming to do it at the behest of their "God"?   


Edited by islamispeace - 06 December 2012 at 7:35pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 8:20pm
Greetings islamispeace,

I have not read all that you wrote.  I am responding to this one thing.
How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?  The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.  The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.  How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it?
The mistakes I am referring to are the mistakes of the Israelites in not following God's law.  We learn from the old testament the mistakes of the Israelites in their disobedience.  This is why the old testament has value even though we live by a new covenant.  We were addressing how one could not be loyal to the old testament but still gain wisdom and guidance from it.

'all scripture is useful for instruction'


Edited by Caringheart - 06 December 2012 at 8:26pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2012 at 8:51pm
"You would love to prove that wouldn't you?"

Not really.  I would rather not believe than millions of people are being deceived and like innocent children being led astray.
I would dearly love for this not to be true.
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