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Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2012 at 9:41pm
Greetings islamispeace,

I accept God's will.  This does not mean I can not argue with Him about it when I don't understand. 
Job argued with God and so did Jacob, so did the prophets.

I believe that God is one.  Do I know it of a certainty?  Could I end up being wrong?  Could the whole Judeo teaching be a made up story?  Of course it could.  Does Jesus appearance on this earth confirm the stories though?  For me, yes, He does.

I understand why you say what you are saying about evil.  Thank God it is in the past, the things that were done during the old testament, and thank God we have the new testament.

Do you not believe that Lucifer corrupted the creation?  Did God know that Lucifer was going to be a fallen angel, that Lucifer would challenge God's supreme being and seek to destroy His creation?

When, and if, you become a parent, you will understand that sometimes they can not be saved.  It is not the parent that condemns them, but themselves, if they will not see light.  Sometimes there is nothing a parent can do.  God allows His children to choose.  They must choose.  It is the only way.  There is no purification if they do not choose the way themselves. 
So you do not have children.  Try to apply the analogy then to yourself and your own parents.  Can you see that your own disobedience could separate you from your parents, and that if there is no repentance that separation could be permanent?
You think this does not pain God to be separated from His creation.  I think it pains Him greatly and this is why He sent His Word to us to try and save us.  'He wants all to come to the Word and be saved.'  He wants us all to come home.

"If I am not loyal to my country, then how could I learn or receive any guidance from it?"
How do I explain this...
Let's see... How about the United States had a terrible time in its history when they bought, sold, and owned people as slaves.  Do we not learn from the history that this is a terrible thing?  So I would not choose to be loyal to reestablishing such a system.  Yet there was still much wisdom in many of the other things which the United States did correctly... like abolishing slavery.
Or how about a man named Constantinople came to power and adopted Christianity as his religion and then set out to make that the religion of any nation which he ruled.  Do we not learn from that history, that it was wrong?  Yet here too, there were surely things gained that were good.
How about the Ottoman empire.  Was it established rightly?  And yet, there was good that came out of that too.
There is wisdom in all things, that we learn from the ancient generations.  Wisdom of ages.

I don't feel like going back to it, but if I did... if you will... you will see that you compared Bible scriptures with sunna, not Qur'an.

Not much different than what you believe about Muhammad either.

Ok, this was as I thought.  I was not quoting the qur'an... so not a deliberate misquote as you say.  I was expressing in my own words what the qur'an means to me.  People must declare belief not just in the one God but also in Muhammad or be considered an enemy of God... a disbeliever... in which case you are instructed to smite their neck as an enemy. (or subjugate them as a second class citizen)

I know how you feel about the scripture.  What I am pointing out is that the words I use are not my own but the Lords, whether you believe or not.  The point was that you wish to say I am making excuses.  I am not making excuses.  I am following the Word of my Lord.  Maybe not your Lord, but mine.  However I believe your prophet told you that God had spoken to the people of the book and if you were ever in doubt about the scriptures you were to consult them.  I speak that Word.

If you doubt my word about Job why do you not read the book of Job, as I read the Qur'an and the hadith when I am in doubt.  Do your own research.  Don't take my word.  You must read the book of Job to understand the relationship he had with God.  He learned from arguing with God.  Just as a child learns from arguing with its parent.

Vague claims? - easily backed up with a little research on your part.
Actually I think being compeled to look for divisions and strife, rather than unity, is where the evil lies.

"Your views and opinions mean nothing to me."
Thanks for showing your respect.


Blind faith(and pride) is having the arrogance to think you have all the answers, and refusing to have the humility to accept that someone else may just be right, and you may be wrong.  I am not blind to the fact that we could all be wrong.

 Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated

No religious claim can be proven, or substantiated, beyond a shadow of a doubt.  This is why we must accept the beliefs of others... because it is just that... belief.

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 03 December 2012 at 9:49pm
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2012 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Hasan,"man, woman, infant..."gotcha. Thanks. I guess I just got hung up because islamispeace kept referring to 'sucklings'.Yes. God did say to destroy them all. I did know that. That is why I shared that I do not know of anyone who follows Jesus who does not have difficulty with the things that went on in old testament times, and that is why they do not follow the old covenant, but the new one... Jesus.Salaam,CH




CAringheart,
...because I see and believe that people naturally have common sense and this God given natural ability to distinguish between right and wrong works if put to work, with some guidance from above.
The Bible, both OT and NT has been together for over a thousand years I guess, taught as revelation from same God. It is difficult for anyone with logic and reason to accept when we are told that the source of OT and NT is the same God.
It does not match it does not fit. On top of that, we see verse quoted to Jesus, saying that every bit of the law (contained in the OT) has to be fulfilled while others claim that Jesus came to do away with it, a true dilemma but not the only issue between the two (OT and NT)
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 04 December 2012 at 3:37pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2012 at 3:58pm

for Hasan,

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[for clarification I would add here not so much that people are liars as in a deliberate act, so much as they may be self deceived.  They may think they belong to God but if they are not keeping His commandments then they do not belong to God no matter how much they may think that they do.  There are many who are blind to this Truth.]

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

8 But, a new commandment which I do write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.  (1 John 2)

_____________________

There was the physical law - the law of rituals
and the spiritual law
If you do some study on Judaism it explains this much better than I can.
Jesus abolished the law of sacrifice.  He showed that clean and unclean has not to do with ritual but with what is in the heart.  He regularly revealed that the Pharisees, though they followed the letter of the law, were unclean because their hearts were far from God.
If one belongs to God He naturally follows the spiritual laws of God.

This is why it is so important to know all of the scriptures and not just part.  Full understanding can not come unless you know the whole of scripture.

Salaam.



Edited by Caringheart - 04 December 2012 at 4:15pm
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2012 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

I think the point Bunter is making is that if you wish to call God of the old testament evil for the things that are in the old testament, all you have to do is look to your own scriptures to find an evil God.

Do you believe in the surah's which Bunter quoted?
Do these things sound like things of a good and loving, merciful God, to you?
Don't they sound a bit like the God of the old testament?

Salaam,
CH


What Bunter was trying to do, like you, was to try to change the subject and move away from the uncomfortable topic of Biblically-sanctioned genocide.  Moreover, comparing the killing of babies to the punishment of sinners who had every chance to repent and mend their ways is laughably absurd.  In fact, I would think that baby-killers would be among the eternally damned!  Punishing such people is not "evil".  It is justice.  On the other hand, killing children and infants is nothing but pure evil.  There is no logical way to justify such evil. 

By the way, the Jesus of the "New Covenant" promises eternal damnation to unbelievers as well.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart



Greetings islamispeace,I think the point Bunter is making is that if you wish to call God of the old testament evil for the things that are in the old testament, all you have to do is look to your own scriptures to find an evil God.Do you believe in the surah's which Bunter quoted?Do these things sound like things of a good and loving, merciful God, to you?Don't they sound a bit like the God of the old testament?Salaam,CH
What Bunter was trying to do, like you, was to try to change the subject and move away from the uncomfortable topic of Biblically-sanctioned genocide. Moreover, comparing the killing of babies to the punishment of sinners who had every chance to repent and mend their ways is laughably absurd. In fact, I would think that baby-killers would be among the eternally damned! Punishing such people is not "evil". It is justice. On the other hand, killing children and infants is nothing but pure evil. There is no logical way to justify such evil. By the way, the Jesus of the "New Covenant" promises eternal damnation to unbelievers as well.

could not have said it any better myself. i hope they will take time to think and understand.
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by bunter

I think this might be a case of YOU know best. Let me ask you about just two of many such verses in the Quran.

Q4:56 We shall send those who reject Our revelations to the Fire. When their skins have been burned away We shall replace them with new ones so that they may continue to feel the pain. God is mighty and wise.

Q18:29 Say, Now the truth has come from your Lord let those who wish to believe in it do so and let those who wish to reject it do so. We have prepared a Fire for the wrongdoers that will envelop them from all sides. If they call for relief they will be relieved with water like molten metal scalding their faces. What a terrible drink. What a painfiil resting place.


Now, surely a good God would know that burning off a person's skin and then replacing it to be burned off again with the only relief being water as hot as molten metal thrown in your face for all eternity must be worse thing anyone can think of, to use your words a monstrous crime? How do you feel about the verses, will you rejoice in them, be happy that such punishments exists?
This is the best you guys can do. Try to change the topic and talk about something completely unrelated. What on earth does the punishment of Hellfire for those who deserve it due to the conscious choice they made have to do with killing babies, who represent everything that is innocent? Do you realize how desperate you sound in trying to justify what any rational, God-fearing person would rightfully denounce as pure evil? Why is it so hard for you to denounce evil? Let me submit to you the same statements I posed to Caringheart. Let me know if you agree or disagree:1. God is good.2. God is not evil.3. God commands good.4. God does not command evil.5. Charity is good.6. God commands charity.7. Killing babies is evil.8. God does not command killing babies.This is not a brain-teaser. These statements are not philosophical dilemmas. They are not even moral dilemmas...at least not to normal, rational people. I guess that does not include you guys.

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:57pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I accept God's will.  This does not mean I can not argue with Him about it when I don't understand. 
Job argued with God and so did Jacob, so did the prophets.


You are nothing more than contradiction personified.  It seems your entire spiritual life is struggling to find its way through a maze of circular logic. 

One can't accept God's Will, yet "argue" with Him at the same time.  You either accept His Will, even if you don't understand it, or you don't.  The best of us, i.e. the prophets, were patient in adversity.  Job (pbuh) was one of the most patient.  In his adversity, he prayed to God to have mercy on him.  He did not complain nor did he "argue".  The Quran states this clearly:

"And (remember) Job, when He cried to his Lord, "Truly distress has seized me, but Thou art the Most Merciful of those that are merciful."  So We listened to him: We removed the distress that was on him, and We restored his people to him, and doubled their number,- as a Grace from Ourselves, and a thing for commemoration, for all who serve Us." (21:83-84)


Originally posted by Caringheart

I believe that God is one.  Do I know it of a certainty?  Could I end up being wrong?  Could the whole Judeo teaching be a made up story?  Of course it could.  Does Jesus appearance on this earth confirm the stories though?  For me, yes, He does.
 

More contradictions.  You believe that you "could" be wrong, yet you say that Jesus' appearance "confirms the stories"!  If the stories are "confirmed", then how can you still insist that you still "could" be wrong? 

Originally posted by Caringheart

I understand why you say what you are saying about evil.  Thank God it is in the past, the things that were done during the old testament, and thank God we have the new testament.


So, your excuse is "well, it was in the past".  "What's done is done".  Right?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Do you not believe that Lucifer corrupted the creation?  Did God know that Lucifer was going to be a fallen angel, that Lucifer would challenge God's supreme being and seek to destroy His creation?
 

What the heck does that have to do with the Bible's claim that God (and NOT Satan) commanded the Israelites to kill infants and children? 

Do I believe that Satan has corrupted mankind?  Yes, of course.  That explains why the Bible dares implicate the just and good Creator of the universe with pure evil.  In short, I believe the Biblical stories of genocide are Satanic lies which were inserted into the Bible after the fact.

Originally posted by Caringheart

When, and if, you become a parent, you will understand that sometimes they can not be saved.  It is not the parent that condemns them, but themselves, if they will not see light.  Sometimes there is nothing a parent can do.  God allows His children to choose.  They must choose.  It is the only way.  There is no purification if they do not choose the way themselves.


None of this explains why, if God "loved" all of us as a "father", He would not throw us into Hell to burn forever.  You tried to compare this to parents who discipline their children, but no parent would think of being the cause of the unending torment of their children. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

So you do not have children.  Try to apply the analogy then to yourself and your own parents.  Can you see that your own disobedience could separate you from your parents, and that if there is no repentance that separation could be permanent?
   

Your analogies are nonsense.  They are devoid of any logic.  You are trying to justify why a "loving" God would punish His "children" for eternity by comparing this to a parent who punishes his/her children.  There is no comparison.  If a child grows up to be evil, he/she will pay the consequences and the parents may feel mental anguish, but that has nothing to do with God, who is our Creator and Judge, and His relationship to sinners.  We are not His "children" in the sense that I am the son of my parents or you are the daughter of your parents. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You think this does not pain God to be separated from His creation.  I think it pains Him greatly and this is why He sent His Word to us to try and save us.  'He wants all to come to the Word and be saved.'  He wants us all to come home.


Well, of course He wants us to be saved!  But the fact remains that if He loved everyone, including the sinners which He will burn for eternity, then there would be no such place as Hell.

Originally posted by Caringheart

How do I explain this...
Let's see... How about the United States had a terrible time in its history when they bought, sold, and owned people as slaves.  Do we not learn from the history that this is a terrible thing?  So I would not choose to be loyal to reestablishing such a system.  Yet there was still much wisdom in many of the other things which the United States did correctly... like abolishing slavery.
Or how about a man named Constantinople came to power and adopted Christianity as his religion and then set out to make that the religion of any nation which he ruled.  Do we not learn from that history, that it was wrong?  Yet here too, there were surely things gained that were good.
How about the Ottoman empire.  Was it established rightly?  And yet, there was good that came out of that too.
There is wisdom in all things, that we learn from the ancient generations.  Wisdom of ages.
 

You gain "wisdom" from the wise.  Similarly, you gain "guidance" from those are guided.  One cannot be loyal to something and yet still expect wisdom or guidance from it.  That makes no sense.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I don't feel like going back to it, but if I did... if you will... you will see that you compared Bible scriptures with sunna, not Qur'an.


As I have said before, you know nothing about Islam.  You know nothing about the Quran except the lies you have heard from like-minded sources, and you know even less about the Sunnah.  If you are too lazy to go back to the previous posts, that is your problem.  I quoted from both the Quran and Sunnah. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Not much different than what you believe about Muhammad either.

Ok, this was as I thought.  I was not quoting the qur'an... so not a deliberate misquote as you say.  I was expressing in my own words what the qur'an means to me.  People must declare belief not just in the one God but also in Muhammad or be considered an enemy of God... a disbeliever... in which case you are instructed to smite their neck as an enemy. (or subjugate them as a second class citizen)


Then you are just a lazy person.  You say you have a copy of the Quran at home, yet instead of actually finding the verse you had in mind, you lazily tried to paraphrase it and failed miserably. 

So, what's your excuse now?  Despite having been shown the actual verse, you insist on your preconceived view.  This is the mark of a blind fool.  You are lying only to yourself by persisting in your ignorance and refusal to acknowledge the facts. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

I know how you feel about the scripture.  What I am pointing out is that the words I use are not my own but the Lords, whether you believe or not.  The point was that you wish to say I am making excuses.  I am not making excuses.  I am following the Word of my Lord.  Maybe not your Lord, but mine.


This shows that you are blind.  You have confused the word of man with the Word of God. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

However I believe your prophet told you that God had spoken to the people of the book and if you were ever in doubt about the scriptures you were to consult them.  I speak that Word.
 

More misquotes of the Quran.  The only explanation now is that you are not lazy; you are just a liar.  Good improvement!

Here is what the Quran actually says:

"We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.  If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt." (10:93-94)

As you can see, the verses were simply saying that if any Muslims have any doubt about the many blessings God poured upon the Jews, that they should ask the Jews themselves.  The Quran was not suggesting that Muslims should consult the Jews or Christians about scripture. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

f you doubt my word about Job why do you not read the book of Job, as I read the Qur'an and the hadith when I am in doubt.  Do your own research.  Don't take my word.  You must read the book of Job to understand the relationship he had with God.  He learned from arguing with God.  Just as a child learns from arguing with its parent.


Why should I read to double check your claims about your own scripture?  Don't you know your own scripture?  You made claim about it, so be ready to support it.  My point was that if you were right about Job's complaints against God and his subsequent admonition, it proves you wrong that a true believer can "argue" with God.  I was going by what you said.    

By the way, I don't rely on your "research" on Islam.  You would be the last source I would consult.  I consult sources which give...you know...facts.  Do you know what those are?   

Originally posted by Caringheart

Vague claims? - easily backed up with a little research on your part.
Actually I think being compeled to look for divisions and strife, rather than unity, is where the evil lies.


You really are lazy.  You made the claim!  You need to back it up!  Why would I waste my time going on a wild goose chase?  In a discussion, it is typical for both sides to provide evidence for their claims.  Otherwise, the discussion will go nowhere.  You made a claim, so now back it up.  Without evidence, you are just wasting people's time and as a result, no one will take you seriously.  So, show a little backbone and support your empty, vague claims with a little thing called evidence!

Originally posted by Caringheart

Thanks for showing your respect.
 

Get over it.  I am not interested in people's personal opinions.  I am interested in facts, knowledge and truth.  If I wanted to hear mindless droning, I would befriend an air conditioner.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Blind faith(and pride) is having the arrogance to think you have all the answers, and refusing to have the humility to accept that someone else may just be right, and you may be wrong.  I am not blind to the fact that we could all be wrong.
 

Again, when did I say that I have all the answers?  Prove me wrong for once. 

I have said that some answers are already in front of us.  They can be found by using one's God-given intellect and common sense.  Obviously, you don't use yours too often, at least in matters pertaining to your religion.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated
 

"Killing babies is evil."  You are telling me that this statement cannot be substantiated?  I don't know whether to laugh or scream!  Your blind refusal to acknowledge evil as evil is both comedic and disturbing at the same time.  It's really weird.

Originally posted by Caringheart

No religious claim can be proven, or substantiated, beyond a shadow of a doubt.  This is why we must accept the beliefs of others... because it is just that... belief.


The central theme of this thread is not a "religious claim".  Let me just say this loud and clear: Any person who refuses to admit that killing infants and children is evil is evil as well.

Take that any way you want. 


Edited by islamispeace - 04 December 2012 at 6:04pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 05 December 2012 at 6:58pm
Greetings islamispeace,

I respect your opinion.  I hope you can respect that my position and my experience is different from yours.
I understand, you do not feel safe to argue with God.  I on the other hand feel perfectly safe in doing so.
My God is a loving Father who gave me a mind and a free will, and one who understands and does not expect me to be without questions.  How could I not have questions when the mind of God is so much greater than my own?

Re:
"I believe that God is one.  Do I know it of a certainty?  Could I end up being wrong?  Could the whole Judeo teaching be a made up story?  Of course it could.  Does Jesus appearance on this earth confirm the stories though?  For me, yes, He does."
It's all about belief.  Isn't that what I have been saying all along?

You said;
"In short, I believe the Biblical stories of genocide are Satanic lies which were inserted into the Bible after the fact."
Since you are allowed to say this then I should also be allowed to say the following...
that I believe that the word given to Muhammad is a deception of satan.

I'm sorry that you do not understand the things I write and that you get them twisted.  I don't imagine going over and over it will help.
I am discussing not a parent punishing their children but a parent losing their children and that, that causes pain.  Just as when God loses His 'children', His creation, it causes Him pain.  We are His children, even more so than our own human children are our children, because He created us, all of us.  That makes all of us His children... His creation.  Without God there are no children.

"One cannot be loyal to something and yet still expect wisdom or guidance from it. "
Have you never heard of learning from mistakes?  It is said that a truly wise person learns from the mistakes of others.
" A fool learns from his own mistakes, A wise man learns from the mistakes of others"
The old testament shows us all the mistakes made by God's people, though we are not bound to living any longer by old testament ways.

What I know of the Qur'an is what I get from reading it myself.  Unlike you suggest, I have not been told any 'lies' about the Qur'an.  Perhaps you go by what you are told.  I investigate for myself.

"I quoted from both the Quran and Sunnah."
Not in the instance I am referring to.  Are you too lazy to go back and see for yourself?  or afraid to admit that I am correct?  It's ok, it doesn't matter.  My question was answered and that is all that matters.

I obviously do not fail in, as you say, 'my paraphrasing' because you knew exactly what surah I was referring to.  However I was not paraphrasing,
"I was expressing in my own words what the qur'an means to me."   There is a difference.  I am telling you what it says to me.  If you tell me that it means something different to you, that is good.  I am then encouraged.

You feel free to challenge my scriptures, I also say to you, I feel that it is you who follow the word of a man and not God.  Is one of us wrong, neither or us wrong, or both of us wrong?

I love the way you can throw insults at a person just for having a conversation, calling them lazy and liar just because you do not like the things they say.  I am not lazy but I am having a conversation, not a classroom debate and not looking for a grade.  I am sharing in conversation.  You are free to disagree.  I disagree with you plenty but I do not feel the need to insult you, your character, your integrity, or your beliefs.

The surah we are discussing...
It doesn't refer to asking about the blessings given...
It refers to "those who have been reading the Book from before thee" ... what those before thee have read in the Book... those who have had the Word of God before thee.

"You made claim about it, so be ready to support it."
My word means nothing to you so you must seek for yourself.  I will share with you what I know, then it is up to you to verify it to your own satisfaction.  We come here to learn.  Learning takes place by investigating for ones self what others have to say.

"I consult sources which give...you know...facts."
Are you also aware of how convoluted the 'facts' are in some sources... Egyptian textbooks for instance... How about those that teach that Jews require blood to make matzo... what about those 'facts' that have been believed by many?  Do you seek facts from sources on both sides of the argument?  I do.  (By the way, that is the definition of not being lazy)

"I am not interested in people's personal opinions."
This is the face of Islam that you present to the world.  It is not a good face and you wonder why people do not see good in Islam?

"when did I say that I have all the answers?"
Here are a few instances:
"Your views and opinions mean nothing to me.  My hope is that other people who read these posts will benefit.  When I talk with people like you, it is with the understanding that 99% of the time, you will refuse to acknowledge the facts."
Your facts.  You have all the answers, and could not possibly be wrong.

"Unfortunately, I already know what's in your mind, and I don't like it!"
You know what is in my mind, and of course you could not be wrong.

and you are absolutely certain, with proof, beyond even the shadow of a doubt, that your beliefs could not be wrong, even though they are just that... beliefs.


You either deliberately twist, or just misunderstand about blind faith...
Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated
blind faith would be saying that God indeed ordered it... justifying killing with faith... supporting a claim that can not be proven (just as the radical Islamists are using what it says in the quran to justify killing even though there is no way to prove that what is said in the quran is from God)
However I say, I am not one to justify anything.  If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.  I am not one to judge.  I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.  According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.  But that is me in my own wisdom.  It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.  If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.

"Let me just say this loud and clear: Any person who refuses to admit that killing infants and children is evil is evil as well."
And you say that you do not argue with God.  If God indeed ordered it, then you are arguing with God.  By not believing God ordered it, you may very well be arguing with God.
You do argue with God.  It's just you have more trust in your own wisdom.
I am not afraid to say that I argue with God.

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 05 December 2012 at 7:12pm
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