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Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2012 at 6:52pm
Greetings islamispeace,
Originally posted by islamispeace


It wasn't Jesus?  Don't you believe Jesus is God?  Does not the Gospel of John state that the "word" was there from the very beginning?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." (John 1:1-2)

"Barnes' Notes on the Bible" explains the meaning of "word":

"This name is given to him who afterward became "flesh," or was incarnate (John 1:14 - that is, to the Messiah. Whatever is meant by it, therefore, is applicable to the Lord Jesus Christ." [1]
I did already explain this.  Jesus is only one aspect of God, conceived of later.  I don't get into arguments trying to explain the Trinity aspect of God since God Himself has to illuminate the mind to understand.  I explain once and then I leave it alone.  I understand that you do not understand, but I would ask you not to not make accusations about me and my understanding and belief.  I do not make accusations of anyone when I do not understand what they believe.  I simply say, I do not believe what you believe, and I do not understand why you believe what you believe.  I only ask the same in return.
Originally posted by islamispeace


Again, you try to change the subject.  First of all, Muslims do not believe that children can be killed.  Allah (swt) never commanded the Muslims to dash babies on rocks.  Who are you to accuse us of defending behavior similar to that of the Israelites? 
Not changing the subject simply saying that Muhammad teaches the same thing as is in the old testament.  It was taught by Muhammad to destroy the unbelievers.  This is no different than what was done to the Canaanites who were not practicing in the way of God... thus were considered unfaithful (i.e., unbelievers).
Again, as in my first post, I question the meaning of the word sucklings.
Originally posted by islamispeace



Second, any Muslim who does think that civilians, especially women and children, can be killed is contradicting the Quran and Sunnah.  Your problem is that your scripture condones the killing of civilians and you cannot bring around to say "Yes, it was wrong.  It was evil.  It could not have been commanded by God".  This is my challenge to you and to all Christians.  Make this statement and your hypocrisy and blasphemy against God will disappear.
I do understand your challenge.  I await the day when all Truth is made known. (for now we see only as in a glass darkly but then we will know in full)  I can not say it was not commanded by God.  But I do understand your problem.  It is the same problem I have with things that were spoken by Muhammad.  And I am sounding like a broken record but... "this is why I follow the new covenant... Jesus... I can find no evil thing in Jesus."
Originally posted by islamispeace


Wow...This excuse can be used to basically justify any type of atrocity.  It is the excuse of someone who knows in the back of their minds that something is wrong or evil. But because of their allegiance or loyalty to an institution, whether it is a religion or a government etc., they cannot actually say it because it would mean turning their backs on that institution.
I have no allegiance to the old covenant.
Originally posted by islamispeace

your response illustrates your blind faith.  You are not open to rational thought on matters pertaining to your religion.  That is why you feel so uncomfortable with this subject. 
I am not uncomfortable at all.  I have acknowledged my doubts if you actually read my posts.  I have told you that I wrestle with God as Jacob wrestled with God... to the point of dislocating a joint.  I argue with God all the time... so no blind faith there, and plenty of rational thought.  I do not fear to wrestle with God.  I know He is a loving Father who would expect nothing less from one to whom He gave free will and determination, and whom He wants to come to Him in full faith with Love, not the faith of babes who are fed on milk but those who are ready for meat.

Originally posted by islamispeace


 by saying you don't "understand" everything, you are deceiving yourself.
By thinking that you have all the answers I'm afraid I would have to say that you are the one who is deceived.  Where is humility?
 
It saddens me that you do not believe in God's love.  I hope one day that you will see it.
 
Originally posted by islamispeace


If He was "hurt" by our rejection of Him, then He would not throw us into hellfire for eternity but instead gently bring us to Him. 
and 'bring us gently to Him' is exactly what He is trying to do.  You have made my point.
 
[edit:  Interestingly this was my verse for the day, just before signing off; 

VERSE OF THE DAY
The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, He is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. 2 Peter 3:9

Is that not Love?]
Originally posted by islamispeace


Then He would have made us all believers.  He has that power, does He not?
What meaning does love have if we do not choose it freely?

Originally posted by islamispeace


What "laws" are you referring to?
All the guidance that is given in the old and new testaments.
If you are familiar with them you may know that God in the Bible is often referred to as Wisdom.
 
May peace be upon us all,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 8:59pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2012 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart

If you were quoting the quran, which verses were they?  It looked to me like you were quoting statements made by followers of Muhammad.

I quoted from both the Quran and the Sunnah.  Do you know their significance?
Yes, I do, that's why I asked if you were quoting the Qur'an when comparing with the Bible scriptures, and if so, which surah's were you quoting?
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart

Did I ever say I was not bothered by what Moses was ordered by God to do?  I was bothered that God would order Abraham to kill his long awaited son also.  But who am I?  Do I have the mind of God?  Am I the maker of all this creation to decide its fate?

And so, using this excuse, you basically wash your hands clean and cast the issue aside. 
How am I casting it aside when I have clearly stated that I am bothered and I see that this could make God look evil?  When I have clearly stated that I understand this is why some people reject all notion of God.  I don't see what there is for you to abhor in that.

Originally posted by islamispeace

no supporting evidence. 
Answered that already. 
 
I will research the rest of what you wrote... the two men... Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab... and get back to you.
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart

Regarding the surah's that you quoted;
Yes, there are certain surah's that I can get behind, but then there are others that contradict... and then there's that little problem of abrogation.
 

More vague and ignorant statements.  Care to elaborate?  Many ignorant non-Muslims, who have not even an iota of understanding on the issue of "abrogation", appeal to this phenomenon in order to justify their ignorance and bias.  If you were so interested in it, I would think that you would do research the topic using authentic Islamic sources to gain a thorough understanding of it.  But, no.  You would rather just appeal to your limited knowledge based on reading material from like-minded people and just make absurd  and vague statements.
May I respectfully point out that you have a habit of falsely accusing.  Do you know that it is in the ten commandments that thou shalt not make false accusations?
I have researched thoroughly the subject of abrogation.  I do not make statements without doing research.  I began my study of Islam quite a while ago.  I do not blindly quote what others have said, but rather do a thorough research from many sources.

Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart

I mean this next question with all respect for I would like to know the answer... Where does the sharia teaching to cut off hands come from?  Is it from the Qur'an?
You see, as I have said all along, the problem I have with Muhammad is that there is so much confusion that comes with his message.


Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but to answer your question, the punishment for cutting off hands is found in the Quran.  It is the punishment for thieves and robbers, although repentance is also accepted:

"As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.  But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (5:38-39)
Thank you.  I appreciate you for answering my question.  What it has to do with is in regard to my original statement that you challenged... that Muhammad revives old testament ways.  This type of thing was prescribed in the old testament.  The difference here seems to be that it is tempered with the teaching that came with the new covenant... the teaching of mercy for repentance. (Again, I would have to research to see if surah 5 was abrogated by a later verse though)
 
As with my last posts.  I will need to stop here and hope to continue later.
Salaam, and a good evening to you, (or a good day, depending on where you live Smile).
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:02pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2012 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


You complain of being "confused"?  How so?  What is so confusing? 
I am not confused.  It is the message of Muhammad that is confused.  The confusion is in whether to follow sunna(hadith) or quran, since they are often not in agreement.  The confusion is in sorting out which surah's in the quran are to be followed, which are abrogated.
Why would God be so unclear and confusing in His messsage?

Originally posted by islamispeace


Are you aware that Muhammad (pbuh) encouraged the freeing of slaves and their fair and humane treatment? 
Yes, I am aware of the things you quoted.  Are you aware that anything a slave accumulated in terms of wealth in his lifetime could not be passed on to his children, (even if he was freed, if I am remembering correctly).  How would you feel about that?  How just and humane is it to not be able to give your children a better future?

Originally posted by islamispeace


If you are so interested in the "truth", why not just pick up a copy of the Quran or read it online. 
I have a copy of the Qur'an at home.  I have read it.  I refuse to devote extended time in providing proofs on this forum.  I did in the past and the posts were not allowed to post.  That meant a great deal of my time and energy was wasted.  I won't do that anymore.  I leave others to do their own research.  If they are truly seeking the truth they will.  Thank you for the online link though.

Originally posted by islamispeace


Let's see the surah you refer to in the proper context:

"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.  But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge." (9:3-6)
So basically it says - make a treaty but they know full well the threat when the time for the treaty is up, and if they have not converted by then, kill them.  How is that good?  This makes me think of the child that is told he is going to receive punishment and then must wait for that punishment.  The threat and fear of that punishment is enough to do them in.
I am not sure I get the meaning of the last 2 sentences.  Can one receive asylum without converting?

Originally posted by islamispeace


What is your problem with this surah?  Would you rather that the Muslims just had killed everyone off, you know like...cough...Moses?
  lol - Thanks for making me smile with your *cough.

Originally posted by islamispeace


Do you understand?  Your "New Covenant" which you so proudly speak of will expire.  So, it is irrelevant what the Apostles did or did not do.  As far as they were concerned, when Jesus would come (in their lifetimes as far as they knew), he would start a bloodbath.  You know...murder and mayhem, like the Old Testament ways.
Muhammad spoke to his people in his time.
Moses spoke to his people in his time.
Jesus is a man for all time.
 
I don't know where you keep coming up with this blood bath notion when Jesus returns.  It will not b Jesus killing.  It will be Jesus coming to stop the blood bath of people killing one another.
(But I do not accuse you of making 'assinine', unstudied, unfounded 'claims', do I?)  If this is what you think or believe all I can do is tell you otherwise and you can either believe me or do some research.  It is up to you.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart


I will not choose belief without questioning for then it is too easy for the deceiver to lead on the way of sure death.


Your Maker gave you an intellect.  If you don't use it, you will have no excuse on the Day you meet him. 
Do you not see that this is exactly what I am telling you?  I use my intellect.  I am not the one following in blind faith.  I am secure in my truth, in my belief, because I seek and thirst after it.  I see that there is no sin, and no thing evil in Jesus.  It is Jesus that can not be denied. 
So I am as sure in my truth as you feel sure about yours.
Still, I know that either of us, or both of us, could be wrong.
I have the humility to see that.
Who will God save?
I think the one with humility and faith. 
"Pride goeth before a fall."
 
Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:05pm
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2012 at 7:40am
Originally posted by honeto

Bunter, by the way what lessons do you learn from those stories, and who declared that those are not to be followed, and if they are so bad, why are they there in the first place. According to your guys, Jesus is "love" and that he was with the father since the beginning so what was going on then, as these acts were actually quoted to have been directed by God as commands! And did not Jesus in the NT is quoted to have said that every iota of the law has to be fulfilled. And that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill, didn't he? Oh my..!Hasan
Some points.
1. No one 'decides', it is just that is the way it is generally interpreted. I might ask you - who interprets the Quran?

2. Any event where judgement occurs is bad and meant to bring us sorrow - unless you are of the persuasion that we should rejoice and be glad when we see someone on their way to hell? How do you feel about the medina massacre by your prophet - do you feel glad about it, do you feel it was a good thing to happen?

3. You are sadly mistaken if you think that because killings occurred in the Bible that they then become a law for all time - that might be the Islamic way, but it is neither Jewish or Christian nor logical.

4. You seem to have a clear view on what is bad, so take a look at Q4:56 and Q18:29 where Allah one presumes burns off skins and then replaces them so they can be burned off again and the only relief from this with water like molten metal thrown in their faces for all eternity - is that good or bad?

If we are to understand each other faith we have to be honest about it.



Edited by bunter - 02 December 2012 at 7:41am
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2012 at 7:47am
Originally posted by islamispeace

Yes, God knows best. And He knows that killing babies is evil. He knows that He did not order such atrocious and monstrous crimes. He knows that the Biblical stories of genocide are lies against Him written by blasphemers.
I think this might be a case of YOU know best. Let me ask you about just two of many such verses in the Quran.

Q4:56 We shall send those who reject Our revelations to the Fire. When their skins have been burned away We shall replace them with new ones so that they may continue to feel the pain. God is mighty and wise.

Q18:29 Say, Now the truth has come from your Lord let those who wish to believe in it do so and let those who wish to reject it do so. We have prepared a Fire for the wrongdoers that will envelop them from all sides. If they call for relief they will be relieved with water like molten metal scalding their faces. What a terrible drink. What a painfiil resting place.


Now, surely a good God would know that burning off a person's skin and then replacing it to be burned off again with the only relief being water as hot as molten metal thrown in your face for all eternity must be worse thing anyone can think of, to use your words a monstrous crime? How do you feel about the verses, will you rejoice in them, be happy that such punishments exists?

Edited by bunter - 02 December 2012 at 7:50am
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2012 at 11:17am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

Just to make a note... you keep saying babies... I took sucklings to mean baby pigs... so not too sure about that.  And what God knows, God knows, but I certainly do not claim to know all.
 
CH


Oh for the love of God...What do you think we have been talking about all this time?  Did you read the verse that Mahdi mentioned in the opening of this post?

1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.

What do you think "infant and suckling" means?  And why are you only now questioning the meaning? 

Do you know what I think?  I think the moral implications of this and other verses is finally dawning on you.  That is why only now you are questioning the meaning of "suckling".  This is progress which I am happy to see.  It is a good first step to seeing the larger picture which is that the verses talking about slaughtering babies are evil and not from God.  The day you realize that will be  day of celebration!
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2012 at 12:22pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I did already explain this.  Jesus is only one aspect of God, conceived of later.  I don't get into arguments trying to explain the Trinity aspect of God since God Himself has to illuminat the mind to understand.  I explain once and then I leave it alone.  I understand that you do not understand, but I would ask you not to not make accusations about me and my understanding and belief.  I do not make accusations of anyone when I do not understand what they believe.  I simply say, I do not believe what you believe, and I do not understand why you believe what you believe.  I only ask the same in return.


This is a typical Christian answer.  I gave you solid proof from your own scripture and backed it up with evidence from a Christian commentary that Jesus allegedly existed from the very beginning and your answer was that I will not understand until God "illuminates the mind".  God has already given me a mind and an intellect.  I use it.  Why don't you?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Not changing the subject simply saying that Muhammad teaches the same thing as is in the old testament.  It was taught by Muhammad to destroy the unbelievers.  This is no different than what was done to the Canaanites who were not practicing in the way of God... thus were considered unfaithful (i.e., unbelievers).
Again, as in my first post, I question the meaning of the word sucklings.


You have been refuted on this nonsense on several occasions, yet you continue to persist in your ignorance.  The fact is that even IF Muhammad (pbuh) taught the destruction of the unbelievers (which he didn't and which you have failed to prove), he did not kill off entire cities and nations, unlike the Moses of the Bible.  Therefore, trying to explain away Moses' genocidal actions by diverting to what Muhammad (pbuh) allegedly did is nothing but a desperate attempt to change the subject.  Moreover, who are you to complain about Muhammad (pbuh) when Moses (pbuh) apparently did far worse?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I do understand your challenge.  I await the day when all Truth is made known.  I can not say it was not commanded by God.  But I do understand your problem.  It is the same problem I have with things that were spoken by Muhammad.  And I am sounding like a broken record but... "this is why I follow the new covenant... Jesus... I can find no evil thing in Jesus."


Yes, you do sound like a broken record, but you also sound like a mindless drone who simply can't look at the facts and use her commonsense, which God has given you. 

Anyway, thank you for proving my point.  No Christian will condemn the killing of babies in the Bible, yet these same Christians will hypocritically condemn the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for doing far less!

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have no allegiance to the old covenant.
 

Then you should have no problem saying:

"Yes, it was wrong.  It was evil.  It could not have been commanded by God."

Originally posted by Caringheart

I am not uncomfortable at all.  I have acknowledged my doubts if you actually read my posts.  I have told you that I wrestle with God as Jacob wrestled with God... to the point of dislocating a joint.  I argue with God all the time... so no blind faith there, and plenty of rational thought.  I do not fear to wrestle with God.  I know He is a loving Father who would expect nothing less from one to whom He gave free will and determination, and whom He wants to come to Him in full faith with Love, not the faith of babes who are fed on milk but those who are ready for meat.


Wow...so you "wrestle" with God?  You "argue" with Him?  You are "ready for meat"?  So, you say that God knows best yet you still "argue" with Him.  You really are a walking contradiction, aren't you? 

How about you just realize, using your common sense, that somethings are evil and that God would never order such things?  Case in point: the killing of babies ("sucklings" if you will).  This is a great evil.  Since God is not evil, then God could not have ordered evil things, right? 

Originally posted by Caringheart

By thinking that you have all the answers I'm afraid I would have to say that you are the one who is deceived.  Where is humility?
 
It saddens me that you do not believe in God's love.  I hope one day that you will see it.


When did I say that I have all the answers?  Please keep your "sadness" to yourself.  I don't fall for such false emotions. 

What I said was that God has given us an intellect.  He has given us common sense.  You don't need to have all the answers to realize some basic truths using this intellect and common sense.  Unlike you, I use both instead of just throwing my hands in the air and say "I don't know God's mind.  I will found out when I meet Him."

Here are some basic truths.  Tell me if you agree or disagree:

1.  God is good.

2.  God is not evil.

3.  God commands good.

4.  God does not command evil.

5.  Charity is good.

6.  God commands charity.

7.  Killing babies is evil.

8.  God does not command killing babies.

Originally posted by Caringheart

and 'bring us gently to Him' is exactly what He is trying to do.  You have made my point.
 
[edit:  Interestingly this was my verse for the day, just before signing off; 

VERSE OF THE DAY
The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, He is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. 2 Peter 3:9

Is that not Love?]


You completely misunderstood me, as usual.  My point was that He would not throw us into Hellfire for eternity if He loved us and was "hurt" by our rejection of Him.  Instead, when we all go to meet Him, He would simply bring us together to Him in a gentle manner, instead of with fire and brimstone for those who rejected Him.

Originally posted by Caringheart

What meaning does love have if we do not choose it freely?


It would be far better than burning us for eternity!  Where is the love in that?

Originally posted by Caringheart

All the guidance that is given in the old and new testaments.
If you are familiar with them you may know that God in the Bible is often referred to as Wisdom.


Wait a minute.  You just said above that you have no "allegiance" to the "Old Covenant".  Yet here you say that you consider the laws in both the Old Testament and the New Testament to be "guidance".  Contradictions galore...that's all I am getting from you.

Originally posted by Caringheart

May peace be upon us all,
CH


Ameen!  And May Allah (swt) guide us to make the right choices, using the common sense which He has given us.


 


Edited by islamispeace - 02 December 2012 at 12:25pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2012 at 12:45pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Yes, I do, that's why I asked if you were quoting the Qur'an when comparing with the Bible scriptures, and if so, which surah's were you quoting?


I am not going to repeat myself.  Go back to the old posts and re-read them.  The relevant ayats and hadiths are there.

Originally posted by Caringheart

How am I casting it aside when I have clearly stated that I am bothered and I see that this could make God look evil?  When I have clearly stated that I understand this is why some people reject all notion of God.  I don't see what there is for you to abhor in that.


Because you say "God knows best" instead of "God would not allow such evil".  Therefore, you are casting the issue aside instead of talking the final step.  The line is clearly drawn.  You took one step towards it but you have not yet crossed it. 

I abhor your statement because you cannot find it in yourself to call a spade a spade.  Instead, you say that we will find out when we meet God.  That would be like someone refusing to admit that the Holocaust was evil and instead say that we will find out if it was evil when we meet God, who will set the matter straight.  Every rational and God-fearing person would abhor both statements.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Answered that already. 
 
I will research the rest of what you wrote... the two men... Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab... and get back to you.
  

You answered nothing and you proved nothing, except that you definitely don't have any answers.

Let me enlighten you on Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab.  They were Muhammad's uncles and were among the most vocal and cruelest of his opponents.  Both persecuted Muslims.  In fact, Abu Jahl was the one who martyred Hazrat Sumayyah, the first martyr of Islam.  Of course, both Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab eventually met their doom.  Abu Jahl was killed in the Battle of Badr.  Abu Lahab died of a severe illness.  

Originally posted by Caringheart

May I respectfully point out that you have a habit of falsely accusing.  Do you know that it is in the ten commandments that thou shalt not make false accusations?
I have researched thoroughly the subject of abrogation.  I do not make statements without doing research.  I began my study of Islam quite a while ago.  I do not blindly quote what others have said, but rather do a thorough research from many sources.


Uh-huh, and what sources would those be? 

Originally posted by Caringheart

hank you.  I appreciate you for answering my question.  What it has to do with is in regard to my original statement that you challenged... that Muhammad revives old testament ways.  This type of thing was prescribed in the old testament.  The difference here seems to be that it is tempered with the teaching that came with the new covenant... the teaching of mercy for repentance. (Again, I would have to research to see if surah 5 was abrogated by a later verse though)


You are extremely confused about abrogation.  Let me clear the fog for you.  This verse has not been abrogated and is valid for all times. 

Walaikum as-salaam.


Edited by islamispeace - 02 December 2012 at 12:47pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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