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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 30 November 2012 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


In any case, the punishment of the Bani Qurayza pales in comparison to the actual genocide in the Bible. 

I think the only difference is that the Jewish history is honest about its history and does nothing to cover it up... as are the Christians honest about the despicable things done in the name of Christianity.
Originally posted by islamispeace


On the other hand, the Canaanites had done nothing to the Israelites to be wiped off the face of the earth. 

Agreed, but as you say, God's knows best...
and that is why God came with a new covenant to 'do a new thing'.


Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:07pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 30 November 2012 at 6:47pm
Greetings islamispeace,

Since your reply is so long.  I have decided to answer in parts.
Again, I appreciate all that you have said.
Originally posted by islamispeace


This is all irrelevant, as I said before.  None of this changes the fact that from your point of view, it was Jesus who would have been the one to have ordered the Israelites to commit genocide and infanticide.  Pontificating on a "New Covenant" does not erase the legacy of genocide.

No it was not Jesus.  Jesus was not conceived by God until after it was what was "asked of the Lord".  That was the point of sharing the scriptures.  It was not irrelevant.  It was God, before the idea of Jesus was even conceived, who spoke to Moses.  Jesus is the new covenant... a different aspect of God.

Originally posted by islamispeace


But the point is that it should not have to be this way!  God is good, not evil.  The Biblical stories of genocide are evil.  Therefore, they could not have been the result of God's command.  In short, God did not command the Israelites to commit genocide.

God of the old testament is real.  I agree God of the old testament can seem evil... yet there are Muslims who defend this same sort of Allah.  Who are we to judge God.  I am happy God decided to do a new thing and conceive a Son, a new covenant and abandon the old ways... to show a new side of Himself to us.  I can see no evil thing in Jesus.

 
Originally posted by islamispeace


How can you criticize him yet still "accept" him?  More importantly, how can you be critical of him if he was only doing the will of God?

How can I criticize you, yet still accept you?  I can, because I choose to, knowing that I do not know all.  I am not God, nor do I have the mind of God.  It helps to know all of God's scriptures.

Originally posted by islamispeace


"It did no good..."??  Then why did God do it?  Wouldn't He have known that it would do "no good"?  Are you accusing God of incompetence, astagfirAllah?  Be careful you do not blaspheme His Holy Name.

Again, I do not have the mind of God.  I hope to understand all one day but I know that day will not come until I meet my Maker.

Originally posted by islamispeace


2.  In the end, all who rejected God will once again experience His "wrath"?

Furthermore, how can any of us "hurt" God?  As the Quran says, God does not need us.  Rather, it is us who need Him:

They will have a chance to see the Truth in Jesus during the time of the tribulation.  There will still be a chance for redemption.

You don't think it hurts God to see His children, His creation, all astray, and destroying the beautiful gift which He gave to them... the gift of the earth, the moon, the stars, the sky, the sun, all nature, and the gift of life?
He does not need us, but He created us, and you think He does not love His creation?  That He does not hurt to see His creation hurt?  Why do you think satan is trying to destroy God's creation if not to hurt Him?

I agree it is us that need God.  He gives His law to protect us.

I must rest here.

Salaam for now,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:09pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 30 November 2012 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by honeto


Bunter,
 if they are so bad, why are they there in the first place. According to your guys, Jesus is "love" and that he was with the father since the beginning so what was going on then, as these acts were actually quoted to have been directed by God as commands!
And did not Jesus in the NT is quoted to have said that every iota of the law has to be fulfilled. And that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill, didn't he?
Oh my..!
Hasan


Greetings Hasan,

'They are in there' because the Jews do nothing to deny or hide their history.  For the rest, maybe you will have read my reply to islamispeace, above?

Peace to you,
CH
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 30 November 2012 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

I was comparing the "Word of the [alleged] Torah" and the "Word of the Quran".

If you were quoting the quran, which verses were they?  It looked to me like you were quoting statements made by followers of Muhammad.

Originally posted by islamispeace


And that bothers you...but what Moses did is somehow justified?

Did I ever say I was not bothered by what Moses was ordered by God to do?  I was bothered that God would order Abraham to kill his long awaited son also.  But who am I?  Do I have the mind of God?  Am I the maker of all this creation to decide its fate?

Originally posted by islamispeace


Also, let me just correct you for more of your absurd claims regarding Muhammad (pbuh).  He conquered his enemies, not innocent people, unlike the Moses of the Bible.  Moreover, he did not kill women and children, unlike the Moses of the Bible.  How you have any reason to complain about Muhammad (pbuh) is beyond comprehension. 


Muhammad conquered anyone he deemed to be his enemy.  Only Muhammad says they were not innocent.  He was judge, jury and executioner.  I'll bet you those people felt they were innocent and undeserving of what they received at the hand of Muhammad.


Regarding the surah's that you quoted;
Yes, there are certain surah's that I can get behind, but then there are others that contradict... and then there's that little problem of abrogation.
I mean this next question with all respect for I would like to know the answer... Where does the sharia teaching to cut off hands come from?  Is it from the Qur'an?
You see, as I have said all along, the problem I have with Muhammad is that there is so much confusion that comes with his message.

Originally posted by islamispeace


Also, if you were more knowledgeable about the tax that the Prophet took from non-Muslims, you would know that it was only taken from males, not women and children.  Therefore, if taxes were his motivation for not killing women and children, as you claim, then there is no reason he would not have killed them! 
I know that Muhammad did not seek wealth for himself personally, but those that followed him did, and it supported armies to build the empire.

Women and children were taken as slaves.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I am not saying I have the answer, but I do know that the things he did are questionable.


It is because of my lack of ignorance, and my humility, that I do not claim to have all the answers.  Whom of us does?  But thanks for another attack on my personal character.  I do not accuse anyone of ignorance, do I?  Are we not all seeking after Truth?

I could quote you the other surah's and see what order of abrogation they take, but I do not have the time for it.  There is the one 'seek them out wherever you may find them, lay in wait, and slay them'.
So it depends on which surah's we choose to follow doesn't it?  Again, the confusion of Muhammad and his message.

I have the solid evidence, which I once took the time to provide but they were never allowed to post so I quit investing the time.  I have done my homework.  I have studied.  I hope you can say the same.

Originally posted by Caringheart

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)"
Yes, I have a problem with that scripture.  Let it also be noted that none of the Apostles acted in this way.  In fact Jesus reprimanded Peter for cutting of the ear of one who came to arrest Jesus.


I see you easily ignore this.

Peace to you, and may we find common ground to respect one another and our individual beliefs.  Only when we meet our Maker will we Know.
I will not choose belief without questioning for then it is too easy for the deceiver to lead on the way of sure death.

Salaam and may we all be saved,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:12pm
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2012 at 11:49am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

I think the only difference is that the Jewish history is honest about its history and does nothing to cover it up... as are the Christians honest about the despicable things done in the name of Christianity.


And Muslims don't?  As I said before, you know NOTHING about Islam except your own biased, preconceived fantasies. 

As it stands, not ONE Christian that has posted on this thread, including yourself, has yet to categorically condemn the baby-killing in the Bible.  You have all tried to dance around the issue, making contradictory statements and hypocritical comparisons.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Agreed, but as you say, God's knows best...
and that is why God came with a new covenant to 'do a new thing'.
 

Yes, God knows best.  And He knows that killing babies is evil.  He knows that He did not order such atrocious and monstrous crimes.  He knows that the Biblical stories of genocide are lies against Him written by blasphemers. 


Edited by islamispeace - 01 December 2012 at 11:50am
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2012 at 3:58pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

No it was not Jesus.  Jesus was not conceived by God until after it was what was "asked of the Lord".  That was the point of sharing the scriptures.  It was not irrelevant.  It was God, before the idea of Jesus was even conceived, who spoke to Moses.  Jesus is the new covenant... a different aspect of God.


It wasn't Jesus?  Don't you believe Jesus is God?  Does not the Gospel of John state that the "word" was there from the very beginning?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." (John 1:1-2)

"Barnes' Notes on the Bible" explains the meaning of "word":

"This name is given to him who afterward became "flesh," or was incarnate (John 1:14 - that is, to the Messiah. Whatever is meant by it, therefore, is applicable to the Lord Jesus Christ." [1]


So, now you are contradicting your own scripture in these desperate attempts at explaining why God allowed the Israelites to kill babies. 

It is simple logic.  You believe Jesus is God.  You believe it was God who commanded the Israelites to kill babies.  Therefore, it was Jesus who commanded the Israelits to kill babies. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

God of the old testament is real.  I agree God of the old testament can seem evil... yet there are Muslims who defend this same sort of Allah.
 

Again, you try to change the subject.  First of all, Muslims do not believe that children can be killed.  Allah (swt) never commanded the Muslims to dash babies on rocks.  Who are you to accuse us of defending behavior similar to that of the Israelites? 

Second, any Muslim who does think that civilians, especially women and children, can be killed is contradicting the Quran and Sunnah.  Your problem is that your scripture condones the killing of civilians and you cannot bring around to say "Yes, it was wrong.  It was evil.  It could not have been commanded by God".  This is my challenge to you and to all Christians.  Make this statement and your hypocrisy and blasphemy against God will disappear.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Who are we to judge God.  I am happy God decided to do a new thing and conceive a Son, a new covenant and abandon the old ways... to show a new side of Himself to us.  I can see no evil thing in Jesus.
 

Wow...This excuse can be used to basically justify any type of atrocity.  It is the excuse of someone who knows in the back of their minds that something is wrong or evil. But because of their allegiance or loyalty to an institution, whether it is a religion or a government etc., they cannot actually say it because it would mean turning their backs on that institution.

Originally posted by Caringheart

How can I criticize you, yet still accept you?  I can, because I choose to, knowing that I do not know all.  I am not God, nor do I have the mind of God.  It helps to know all of God's scriptures.


You are comparing me to Moses (pbuh, the prophet of God, who received God's revelation and who spoke with God? 

Also, your response illustrates your blind faith.  You are not open to rational thought on matters pertaining to your religion.  That is why you feel so uncomfortable with this subject.  It is blatantly obvious from everyone of your posts.  In fact, it is obvious that every Christian who has posted on this thread is extremely uncomfortable with this issue

Originally posted by Caringheart

Again, I do not have the mind of God.  I hope to understand all one day but I know that day will not come until I meet my Maker.


God gave you an intellect.  He gave you a conscience.  By refusing to use your intellect and instead excuse your ignorance and contradictory viewpoints by saying you don't "understand" everything, you are deceiving yourself.  When you do meet your Maker, and meet him you will, you will not have an excuse for failing to see the plain truth that was dangling in front of you the whole time.

Originally posted by Caringheart

They will have a chance to see the Truth in Jesus during the time of the tribulation.  There will still be a chance for redemption.


Yup, right before Jesus descends and kills everyone who rejected him.  Hence, no more "New Covenant".  No more "love".  It will be back to the old days of murder and mayhem.

Originally posted by Caringheart

You don't think it hurts God to see His children, His creation, all astray, and destroying the beautiful gift which He gave to them... the gift of the earth, the moon, the stars, the sky, the sun, all nature, and the gift of life?


God is free of all wants.  If He was "hurt" by our rejection of Him, then He would not throw us into hellfire for eternity but instead gently bring us to Him.  The truth is that we choose disbelief at our own peril, as the Quran states:

"Let not those grieve thee who rush headlong into Unbelief: Not the least harm will they do to Allah: Allah's plan is that He will give them no portion in the Hereafter, but a severe punishment.  Those who purchase Unbelief at the price of faith,- not the least harm will they do to Allah, but they will have a grievous punishment." (3:176-177) 

Originally posted by Caringheart

He does not need us, but He created us, and you think He does not love His creation?  That He does not hurt to see His creation hurt?  Why do you think satan is trying to destroy God's creation if not to hurt Him?


Then He would have made us all believers.  He has that power, does He not?

"Even so, in the eyes of most of the pagans, their "partners" made alluring the slaughter of their children, in order to lead them to their own destruction, and cause confusion in their religion. If Allah had willed, they would not have done so: But leave alone them and their inventions." (6:137)

Originally posted by Caringheart

I agree it is us that need God.  He gives His law to protect us.


What "laws" are you referring to?
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2012 at 5:02pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

If you were quoting the quran, which verses were they?  It looked to me like you were quoting statements made by followers of Muhammad.


I quoted from both the Quran and the Sunnah.  Do you know their significance?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Did I ever say I was not bothered by what Moses was ordered by God to do?  I was bothered that God would order Abraham to kill his long awaited son also.  But who am I?  Do I have the mind of God?  Am I the maker of all this creation to decide its fate?


And so, using this excuse, you basically wash your hands clean and cast the issue aside.  As I said before, people can use this excuse to justify any type of atrocious behavior, even (apparently) the slaughter of innocent children.  All rational people of faith would abhor your statement.  I certainly do. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Muhammad conquered anyone he deemed to be his enemy.  Only Muhammad says they were not innocent.  He was judge, jury and executioner.  I'll bet you those people felt they were innocent and undeserving of what they received at the hand of Muhammad.


And I suppose you will educate us and tell us the "real" story?  All I have read in your posts are your own ridiculous opinions with no supporting evidence. 

Tell us, teacher.  Were the people the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saw as his enemies really innocent?  How so?  Why was he not justified in fighting against them and killing them?  Were Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab, the arch-persecutors of Muslims, really just two nice guys?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Regarding the surah's that you quoted;
Yes, there are certain surah's that I can get behind, but then there are others that contradict... and then there's that little problem of abrogation.
 

More vague and ignorant statements.  Care to elaborate?  Many ignorant non-Muslims, who have not even an iota of understanding on the issue of "abrogation", appeal to this phenomenon in order to justify their ignorance and bias.  If you were so interested in it, I would think that you would do research the topic using authentic Islamic sources to gain a thorough understanding of it.  But, no.  You would rather just appeal to your limited knowledge based on reading material from like-minded people and just make absurd  and vague statements.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I mean this next question with all respect for I would like to know the answer... Where does the sharia teaching to cut off hands come from?  Is it from the Qur'an?
You see, as I have said all along, the problem I have with Muhammad is that there is so much confusion that comes with his message.


Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but to answer your question, the punishment for cutting off hands is found in the Quran.  It is the punishment for thieves and robbers, although repentance is also accepted:

"As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.  But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (5:38-39)

You complain of being "confused"?  How so?  What is so confusing?  The killing of babies does not confuse you, huh?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Women and children were taken as slaves.


But before you were saying that the reason they were not killed was because Muhammad (pbuh) could get taxes from them.  When you were refuted for that ignorant statement, you changed gears and said "well, women and children were taken as slaves". 

Are you aware that Muhammad (pbuh) encouraged the freeing of slaves and their fair and humane treatment? 

"Narrated Abu Dhar: I asked the Prophet, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and to fight for His Cause." I then asked, "What is the best kind of manumission (of slaves)?" He replied, "The manumission of the most expensive slave and the most beloved by his master." I said, "If I cannot afford to do that?" He said, "Help the weak or do good for a person who cannot work for himself." I said, "If I cannot do that?" He said, "Refrain from harming others for this will be regarded as a charitable deed for your own good."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 46, #694)

"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever manumits his share of a jointly possessed slave, it is imperative for him to get that slave manumitted completely by paying the remaining price, and if he does not have sufficient money to manumit him, then the price of the slave should be estimated justly, and he is to be allowed to work and earn the amount that will manumit him (without overburdening him)"." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 44, #672)

Originally posted by Caringheart

It is because of my lack of ignorance, and my humility, that I do not claim to have all the answers.  Whom of us does?  But thanks for another attack on my personal character.  I do not accuse anyone of ignorance, do I?  Are we not all seeking after Truth?


If that was the case, then you would not be making the silly and ridiculous claims you have made about Islam and Muhammad (pbuh).  Instead of making false accusations as if they were true, why didn't you just say "I have heard such and such verse says such and such thing"?  Pleading ignorance after you have been thoroughly refuted just exposes you as biased individual.  Case in point:

Originally posted by Caringheart

I could quote you the other surah's and see what order of abrogation they take, but I do not have the time for it.  There is the one 'seek them out wherever you may find them, lay in wait, and slay them'.
So it depends on which surah's we choose to follow doesn't it?  Again, the confusion of Muhammad and his message.


If you are so interested in the "truth", why not just pick up a copy of the Quran or read it online.  Here is a website that has the Quran: http://www.searchtruth.com/list.php

Let's see the surah you refer to in the proper context:

"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.  But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge." (9:3-6)

What is your problem with this surah?  Would you rather that the Muslims just had killed everyone off, you know like...cough...Moses?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have the solid evidence, which I once took the time to provide but they were never allowed to post so I quit investing the time.  I have done my homework.  I have studied.  I hope you can say the same.
 

Sure you do.  I doubt you have done your homework.  That is obvious from reading your posts.  You make asinine claims and then when you are refuted, you simply make another asinine claim and then say that you don't have all the answers.  Well of course you don't!  I already know that!  You don't have to tell me!

Originally posted by Caringheart

I see you easily ignore this.


When did I ignore this?  Are you going to make me repeat myself?  I responded to your post about Luke 19:27.  Here is what I said:

The point is that this "New Covenant" has an expiration date.  After this, says the Bible, Jesus will revert to the old ways and will command his followers (which includes you) to kill all who reject him.  Therefore, this "love" you speak of is not for all times and it is conditional.


Do you understand?  Your "New Covenant" which you so proudly speak of will expire.  So, it is irrelevant what the Apostles did or did not do.  As far as they were concerned, when Jesus would come (in their lifetimes as far as they knew), he would start a bloodbath.  You know...murder and mayhem, like the Old Testament ways.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Peace to you, and may we find common ground to respect one another and our individual beliefs.  Only when we meet our Maker will we Know.
I will not choose belief without questioning for then it is too easy for the deceiver to lead on the way of sure death.


Your Maker gave you an intellect.  If you don't use it, you will have no excuse on the Day you meet him.  You are taking a big risk by consigning yourself to find out the truth only when you meet Him.  By that time, it will be far too late to change your mind and repent.  The truth is already in front of you.  You just choose not to acknowledge it.  In short, you have already been deceived. 


Edited by islamispeace - 01 December 2012 at 5:12pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2012 at 6:20pm
Greetings islamispeace,
 
Originally posted by islamispeace


As it stands, not ONE Christian that has posted on this thread, including yourself, has yet to categorically condemn the baby-killing in the Bible.  You have all tried to dance around the issue, making contradictory statements and hypocritical comparisons.[/quote
How can I condemn or not condemn?  Am I God?  Do I have the mind of God to know all Truth?  If it is of a truth that God ordered it, I am not one to condemn it, and unless God Himself tells me He did not order it I am not one to say anything on the matter.
  [QUOTE=islamispeace]
Yes, God knows best.  And He knows that killing babies is evil.  He knows that He did not order such atrocious and monstrous crimes.  He knows that the Biblical stories of genocide are lies against Him written by blasphemers. 
Just to make a note... you keep saying babies... I took sucklings to mean baby pigs... so not too sure about that.  And what God knows, God knows, but I certainly do not claim to know all.
 
CH
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