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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Topic: LUKE 24:46-47 IMAGINARY BIBLE PROPHECY
    Posted: 03 November 2012 at 3:07am
Luke 24:46-47 New International Version (NIV) 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Please tell me where 'this is what is written' as claimed by Jesus can be found. Where can we find this prophecy written?
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 10:33am
Hi Mahdi,

Quote: Imaginary Bible prophecy
Luke 24:46-47 New International Version (NIV) 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Please tell me where 'this is what is written' as claimed by Jesus can be found. Where can we find this prophecy written?

Response: --- It was after his resurrection that Jesus appeared to them, and the context starts in 24:
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”
45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
--- (Note --- that though Jesus had taught them the OT Scriptures, they did not understand, so in 45, “He opened their understanding.” --- He had already told them in Matthew 16:
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.)

And now, with their opened understanding, in 46 He said to them “Thus it is written (in the Scriptures), and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day. --- And there are many OT Scriptures that predict the coming of their Messiah and Redeemer
While there are fulfilled prophecies that He would be born of a Virgin, and born in Bethlehem, the city of David. --- The New Testament really starts with John the Baptist, who is prophesied here in Isaiah 40:
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted and every mountain and hill brought low;
The crooked places shall be made straight and the rough places smooth;
5 The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together;
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

10 Behold, the Lord God shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him;
Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.
11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd; He will gather the lambs with His arm,
And carry them in His bosom, And gently lead those who are with young.
--- (V10 speaks of Jesus as the ‘Arm’ of the Lord, who would rule for Him. V11 speaks of His role as a Shepherd caring for the sheep (followers).

Isaiah 42:1 “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 51:4 “Listen to Me, My people; And give ear to Me, O My nation:
For law will proceed from Me, And I will make My justice rest As a light of the peoples.
5 My righteousness is near, My salvation has gone forth,
And My arms will judge the peoples; The coastlands will wait upon Me,
And on My arm they will trust.
52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, You waste places of Jerusalem!
For the Lord has comforted His people, He has redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The Lord has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations;
And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God.

And we see who ‘the Arm of the Lord is, in Isaiah 53:
1 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
4 Surely He has borne our grief And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

10 When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

There are many more verses, but I will give you this cross reference from Hosea 6:
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

--- (Sorry, a little long)


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Mahdi The Seeke
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 26 November 2012 at 12:06pm
please do not make long replies which turn out to be irrelevant. where does it say the messiah will suffer and rise on the third day. please keep it short.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 30 November 2012 at 7:34am
Hi Mahdi,   
Quote: where does it say the messiah will suffer and rise on the third day. please keep it short.

Response: --- The OT prophecy is found in Jonah 1:
17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

---Because of His teaching, they asked Jesus for a Sign, to prove who He was, in Matthew 12:
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

--- To understand the symbolism, --- The first part is this:
God ‘prepared a great fish’ to swallow Jonah. --- After he was swallowed, he was ‘under’ the level of the earth (buried) for three days and three nights.
And this unnatural event ended this way in Jonah 2:
10 --- So the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

--- Here is the second part:
God had called Jonah to go and preach to Ninevah, --- but Jonah was rebellious, and disobedient, so he was running away from God, --- which is the state of the natural man. --- And Jonah responds this way in Jonah 2:
1 Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the fish’s belly.
2 And he said: “I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction,
And He answered me.” --- (And his prayer ends with his repentance):
9 But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving;
I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.”
10 So the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.
--- So Jonah, was now forgiven and cleansed of his sin, and went to Ninevah, and God had ‘prepared the ungodly Ninevites to listen to Jonah’ --- (Read Chapter 3 and see how even the king responded.)

The symbolism continues, with Jesus, who ‘took the place’ of sinful mankind, --- and died (which is the separation of body and spirit) and was buried, --- so in this sacrifice, sinful man was ‘redeemed’ and cleansed of sin.
After the three days, Jesus rose in a Spiritual body and appeared to the disciples, who later watched Him as He ascended into heaven.
--- And the promise was given that those who believed and followed Jesus would inherit eternal life. --- The Scripture says, “God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Concerning His suffering for sin in taking our place, it says in Isaiah 53:
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions He was bruised for our iniquities
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

11 By His knowledge My righteous Servant (Jesus) shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

--- ( Sorry, there are not many short answers to the symbolism in prophecy and fulfillment. --- And there is a little more to add.)


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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2012 at 5:46am
Hi Mahdi,

After the reference to Jonah, Jesus said the following in teaching the disciples:
Matthew 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
17:22 Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men,
23 and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up.” And they were exceedingly sorrowful.
20:17 Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them,
18 “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death,
19 and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.”
26:59 Now the chief priests, the elders, and all the council sought false testimony against Jesus to put Him to death,
60 but found none. Even though many false witnesses came forward, they found none. But at last two false witnesses came forward
61 and said, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’
---(This conversation is recorded in John 2:
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.)
Mark 8:31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
9:31 For He taught His disciples and said to them, “The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day.”
10:33 “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and deliver Him to the Gentiles;
34 and they will mock Him, and scourge Him, and spit on Him, and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”
Luke 9:22 Saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.”
18:32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon.
33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again.”
24:7 Saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”

24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”
45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And you are witnesses of these things.


Placid
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2012 at 12:10pm
Placid,
I love this brother Ahmmad Deedat (may Allah grant him mercy), he is straight forward, he has no mercy for lies.

Here is answer to that question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gwOh4mr108
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 03 December 2012 at 12:11pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2012 at 7:22am
Hi Honato,

Quote: I love this brother Ahmmad Deedat (may Allah grant him mercy), he is straight forward, he has no mercy for lies.
Here is answer to that question:

Response: --- Yes Mr Deedat is quite a dramatic speaker, --- He speaks on what he wants to present, but he doesn’t have all of his facts right.

--- To begin with, he does acknowledge that Jesus was put on the cross, and that He died, and they took Him down from the cross and placed him in a sepulcher.
--- The sepulcher was a new one that Joseph of Arimathea had made, and it was no doubt large enough for family members, so Jesus was carried there by Joseph of Arimathea, and Nicodemus. John 19:38-42.
--- He acknowledged that Jesus rose from death, because the tomb was empty.
--- He said the Miracle was the death and resurrection of Jesus.
--- He mentions the quick death of Jesus, after three hours --- and he mentions the piercing of the side which could bring early death, but in this case, they pierced His side after they saw that He was dead, and so they did not break His legs as they did to the other 2, to induce a quick death. John 25-37.

--- He said that the Bible said, --- ‘this happened on a Friday,’ --- but the word ‘Friday’ is not found in the Gospels nor does it mention any day except the Passover, which was the 14th of Nisan.
--- And Good Friday was a tradition that started much later, and really has no significance except giving the wrong concept that Jesus was put to death on Friday and was resurrected on Sunday.
--- (This was seemingly based on the fact that this was a Preparation Day, and the Jews could not leave the bodies on the crosses over the Sabbath [Saturday, or a 'high' day], John 19 42.)

--- Mr Deedat wrongly said that they covered the body with the oil and spices because they took the body down from the cross after 3 o’clock in the afternoon and the Sabbath started at 6 in the evening, which was the start of the next day, which was 3 hours later..

--- I will give the accounts of the two secret disciples of Jesus, Joseph and Nicodemus, as written in each of the Gospels.
Joseph and Nicodemus were Pharisees and part of the Sanhedrin, (the inner council), --- so they knew that the Jews were plotting to kill Jesus and they were not in favor of His death. --- However, they were believers in Jesus, and they had plans to take care of the body. --- An empty Sepulcher, --- and Nicodemus brought about 100 pounds of spices and oils which would have been used later for embalming. John 19:39, --- In the 3 hours left of the day, Joseph went to Pilate to get permission, --- then they took the body down and wrapped it in white linen, before burial.
--- They didn’t use the spices then, but no doubt gave them to the women who followed them to the tomb, --- who would prepare them and were bringing them, after the two Sabbaths, to the tomb on the first day of the week (Sunday), when they found that the tomb was empty.   

I want to give you the four accounts of the Gospel writers so you can check the Scripture verses that Mr Deedat referred to.
--- But first, --- I want you to understand that I personally don’t care whether or not you believe in these four accounts of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, as they are written, --- and as Gabrie[ ‘confirmed’ them as the truth in 625 AD, long after any so-called changes could have been made.

--- But when you bring in Mr Deedat to discredit, the Gospels, I simply want to respond with what the Scriptures say, in the verses that he refers to, --- and let you use your reasoning to sort it out.
--- I am not criticizing Mr Deedat, --- and to present the Scriptures as they are, is not being biased, or prejudiced, or critical, or dogmatic, is it?    

--- (And, I will give the four accounts next).


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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2012 at 3:48pm
To continue with the four Gospel accounts that Mr Deedat referred to, --- beginning with Matthew 27:
57 Now when evening had come, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus.
58 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be given to him.
59 When Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60 and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb, and departed.
61 And Mary Magdalene was there, and the other Mary, sitting opposite the tomb.

Mark 15:
42 Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath,
43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
44 Pilate marveled that He was already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him if He had been dead for some time.
45 So when he found out from the centurion, he granted the body to Joseph.
46 Then he bought fine linen, took Him down, and wrapped Him in the linen. And he laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the door of the tomb.
47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses observed where He was laid.

Luke 23:
50 Now behold, there was a man named Joseph, a council member, a good and just man.
51 He had not consented to their decision and deed. He was from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who himself was also waiting[o] for the kingdom of God.
52 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus.
53 Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb that was hewn out of the rock, where no one had ever lain before.
54 That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near.
55 And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid.
56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

And John 19:
31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.”
37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”[g]
38 After this, Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took the body of Jesus.
39 And Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds.
40 Then they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury.
41 Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid.
42 So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews’ Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby.


Placid

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