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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2012 at 10:35am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nausheen,

I think divorce happens when God is not at the center of the marriage from the beginning.  People looking too much for what they want from each other instead of both seeking to serve in ways that please God.  When both are focused on God they are striving towards the same focal point.  When they focus too much on each other they are headed for collision.  I have heard it put this way and I see the truth in it.

It's nice to have you around again.
It surprised me for you to say you are in India.  I don't know why. Smile

Oh, regarding the 'not from Jupiter' comment... lol
It's just that I would expect anything sanctioned by God would be reverenced as much in all the Abrahamic religions.
To me it's not a culture thing.  It's a God thing... man and woman created for each other... in union... by God... the two shall become one.  Well if they have become one does it make sense they can be ripped apart?  He created one man... one woman.  He didn't say here's one but when it doesn't work out I'll create another for you.  Wink
 
Greetings to you CaringHeart.
 
Its always good to come back.
 
Im not in India, rather an Indian whos stuck in Japan :) Why are you surprised Smile
 
Cant agree more when one talks about bringing God in the middle of the marriage and giving Him centre stage.
Tell me what could one do if only one of the two partners has this aim close and dear to their heart. Not just that, when practicing religion - how religion should be taught to kids etc becomes an issue in marriage . Have seen many non practicing husbands who loathe their wives for performing their fundamental religious duties. These wives are angles, I'd say.  But, happiness, bliss is out of the window.
 
Not sure if God created a 1:1 ratio between men and women. What if someone's spouse dies very early. Should they remain single for the rest of their lives?
 
>>He didn't say here's one but when it doesn't work out I'll create another for you.<<
 
Its said in the Quran we will be asked if we found His earth so small as not to be able to move away from mess (fitna). In other words the Quran is saying we shld either clean our mess or if its too big for us to handle, we shld move out of it.
The religion cares about ones mental health. Marriages are designed to give one mental and emotional comfort - when this is not happening, its a disfunctional marriage - am not saying one shld ampute the limb before the gangrene has set in. But what shld one do when it has?
 
On a psychology forum there is a person married for more than 50 years. His wife is suffering from a personality disorder - she gives him hell of a time and he is trying every which way to keep himself together. Amazing guy, hats off to him. He is trying to learn about his wife's disorder, and how to handle his own stresses, emotional issues etc, but have never even thought of as much as having an extra marital affair. He is a perfect image of loyalty and fidelity. Not sure how many people have the courage to be like this person. If there were more ppl like him, our world would be a perfect placeSmile
 
However, Caringheart, there is a time to call it quits or life will slip away before we even know.
 


Edited by Nausheen - 01 November 2012 at 10:39am
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2012 at 3:25pm
Greetings Nausheen,

What you said about being in unhappy marriage.  Isn't the burden of responsibility on us?  If we seek to please God then we will find what we seek.  We will do what is required of us.
We expect too much because we want our will and not God's.
Isn't it about being submitted to the will of God?
In Islam it is taught that this life is a test, right?
In the same way, for me, I feel that we are all given our 'crosses to bear' in this life.
God has His purposes, and whether or not we accept His will, is the heart of the matter.

When marriage is a choice and a commitment that we make before God...
even when marriage is arranged by the family...
aren't we responsible for building love?
Love is different than infatuation
There is a scene I always loved from the musical, Fiddler on the Roof.  I don't know if you've ever seen the movie.  It's the scene where the husband says to his wife... "Goldie, do you love me?"  and she says for 25 years I've cooked your meals, cleaned your house... 25 years my bed is his... if that's not love, what is?"  and he says, "then you love me" and she says, "I suppose I do"  and he responds, "and I suppose I love you too".  The joy in the discovery of this truth, this love, is felt.
It highlighted, for me, the nature of real love.  Love is a thing we build.
It's all in the definition, it's all about the commitment.  Love... real love... agape love... comes from actions, not feelings.
In the Bible there are three types of love spoken of
there is eros - this is infatuation or lustful attraction... short lived
philia - the kind of love you have for your family
and agape - self sacrificing love... the truest kind of love... Godly love

I think God wants us to learn agape love and He gives what is needed to develop that love, and to see if we will be obedient to His will and not our own.

This is why marriage is never meant to be entered into lightly.  It is a lifelong commitment that may require great sacrifice.
I also heard something recently that talked about the ups and downs in life... a friend of mine once told me a similar thing... anyway, this radio program was talking about how if people would just recognize, like they once did, that you go through rough patches in a marriage and if you will just wait them out, it is in this process that we grow... that God grows us if we turn to Him and let Him sustain us.  It is through these things that the love grows bigger and deeper... because we grow as individuals.  It is this that makes love later in life so wonderful, and so strong, and so worthwhile... knowing you got through it, together... that you forgave each other things and grew stronger, grew to be better people.  Marriage is meant to grow us.  It is the covenant God gives to grow us.  (See marriage to me, is known as 'the covenant of marriage', because it is ordained and blessed by God)  If we abandon it we abandon our growth... the growth God wants for us.

It is best for happiness of course if both persons are committed to this growth... to becoming better people for one another.  This is why I say God must be at the center, but if He is not you must pray for your spouse asking God to work the change in their heart.  You must 'bear your cross' and leave it up to God... to His will.  I have heard many stories of how this kind of love and forebearance brought about the necessary changes in people, which is of course God's will and His plan all along.  Then happiness comes.  Life is quite often an exercise in patience.  Nothing grows a person like learning patience and grace.

If God takes a spouse then we must believe that is also part of His plan for us.  If God takes a spouse then there is no reason not to marry again, if God sends another.

These are my views.

Here's the whole lyrics of the song.  It's a great show to watch if you can.
Tevye: Do you love me?
Golde: Do I what?
Tevye: Do you love me?

Golde: Do I love you?
With our daughters getting married and this trouble in the town,
You're upset. You want out. Go inside. Go lie down.
Maybe it's indigestion.

Tevye: Golde, I'm asking you a question. Do you love me?
Golde: You're a fool!
Tevye: I know. But do you love me?

Golde: Do I love you?
For twenty-five years, I've washed your clothes,
Cooked your meals, cleaned your house,
Given you children, milked the cow.
After twenty-five years, why talk about love right now?

Tevye: The first time I met you was on our wedding day. I was scared.
Golde: I was shy.
Tevye: I was nervous.
Golde: So was I.

Tevye: But my father and my mother said we'd learn to love each other.
So, now I'm asking, Golde...
Tevye: Do you love me?
Golde: I'm your wife!
Tevye: I know. But do you love me?

Golde: Do I love him?
For twenty-five years, I've lived with him,
Fought with him, starved with him.
For twenty-five years, my bed is his.
If that's not love, what is?

Tevye: Then you love me?
Golde: I suppose I do.
Tevye: And I suppose I love you, too.
Together: It doesn't change a thing, but even so,
After twenty-five years, it's nice to know

and boy, did I ever end up having a lot to say?  I always have known how to make a short story, long.  Wink  lol

Peace and blessings to you,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 01 November 2012 at 3:42pm
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2012 at 11:45pm
Greetings Caringheart,

Thank you for your post. No it was not long - I liked reading every bit of it.

I would also like to agree with all of it. Apart from one aspect which is missing, rest is quite agreeable. However what is missing is a serious issue.

To me it seems your message says – there is no marriage that should break, in other words divorces should never happen. I get this picture because no where in your post you’ve given a consideration to any situation where divorce could be the only option.

I will give you situations where divorce is the only option. My post is going to be long, perhaps longer than yours :)

You live in a society where divorce is not only common, it is also very easily granted and widely accepted. I come from a society where divorce is not just very uncommon, its very difficult to get justification and acceptability within the society. As a result, in the west people are filing for divorces for really petty reasons – reasons that always exist within ones lives and no matter how many spouses one changes one cannot achieve the kind of bliss one fantacises. In Indian culture, divorce is mostly the last option, in others it is not even an option. I think submission to God is not equal to submission to misery when there are (God granted) ways to get out of that misery.

I’ll list a few situations for you to ponder.

1. In hindu custom the bride’s father should pay a lot of money and expensive items (like furniture, electronincs, a car etc) to the groom and his family during the wedding. This is not optional – when the marriage is being‘arranged’ this amount is decided by the groom’s family. Parents on the brides side arrange their daughter’s weddings like a business contract. Then, after the marriage, in many cases the arrangement is found dissatisfactory to the grooms family, they ask for more money and more gifts. If the father is able to, he pays … if he is not, the daughter goes through difficulty in her marriage and adjustments with her in-laws. Eventually, they grow so unhappy with her that they burn her to death! Pick up any newspaper, every third – fourth day and you will find a ‘dowry death’ reported. The laws in the country are very strict. Demanding dowry is a crime, punishable by law – yet many, many girls have to die in this drama.
God is held witness when marriage laws are pronounced in this case as well. The girl and her parents who see unhappiness in the marriage want to do whatever they can to diffuse the tension – because everyone knows its their own responsibility to find happiness. Tell me what should one do to create marital bliss when its basis rests on financial resources one does not have?
Should the girl’s parents not call her back and file for a divorce?
Yet they do not do this. Instead they tell her to try and ‘cope’, and she copes ‘till death does her part’!!

2. My mother’s maid servant’s husband is a poor rickshaw puller. Whatever he earns he spends all on alcohol. What she earns, she hides from him to keep for running the house and he beats her often to give money for alcohol – She is not filing a divorce. Its her own responsibility to find her happiness and marital bliss. She spends most of her time washing dishes and cleaning houses to earn for her family… I don’t know what social pressures they go thru. She deserves a life of dignity and surely she is not going to get it from this man. I think she deserves to get out of this marriage with all her children, but she will not. And, she is not an isolated case of this scenario.

3. Another example of domestic violence: One of my aunts had a friend (a rich Punjabi sikh family living in New Delhi) who had died. This was her second marriage - she was being physically abused but she thought she could handle. He used to beat her and love her, and she thought walking out of this marriage will receive severe social censure because she had already had one divorce before this marriage. She did not even think of filing a divorce. In reality she could not handle the abuse, and eventually her death was due to one of those incidences. Again this is not an isolated case.
I know of another case in my extended family where the wife died leaving behind two boys (5 and 3) because she thought she could handle the episodes of violence – she did not want to go thru a divorce, since it was her second marriage – her logic was that people might find serious faults in her temperament if she could not cope. She coped death did its part.

4. Verbal abuse: If you don’t know what it is, go to a website explaining it. Check what kind of people engage in it and what they do to their victims. Check what are the ways of handling a man/woman who suffers from the disease of abusing their loved ones like this! They are subjects of personality disorders, and its very difficult for one to find their happiness around such people. There are organizations in the west who support spouses and families victims of this situation, however I don’t know of their kind in India. To verbally abuse the partner is not even taken seriously – leave alone someone suggesting divorce. Ive read accounts of victims of this kind of abuse – you would either not understand their agony if you don’t know what it is, or it will make you cry and your hair stand at their ends. Physical abuse still gets serious attention because the scars and wounds are visible on the body. Here the wounds are inflicted on the soul – noone can even see it. Should God or religion, or society tell these people to surrender, or wait till the down are over or anything to the connotation of bearing the situation on ones soul?

5. This one is a rather delicate. A couple I know who do not share marital relations because he does not want it. He’s got a problem which he refuses to address – ie despite the wife insisting on taking professional help. She did not file a divorce. She did not even think of it. Not just this, she is chaste, loyal, devoted and on top of that even manages to be happy ! Its not just his marital duty, also his religious duty to fulfill the rights of his wife. This is an example where Islam recommends separation. If a spouse in such situation does not mind compromising like this wife has done, I have no problem. However, if a society or a religion does not sanction separation there is a problem with that system. She did not take marriage light, rather got into the contract with mature thinking and willingness – and continues to stay in it with mature thinking and willingness, however her rights are not in her control.

These are just few example from the top of my head where people might be caught up in a situation they cannot do much to change their level of happiness. Our duties are in our control, but our rights - not always. Sometimes our rights are in complete control of the one whose duty it is to grant them.
Should we be telling these people to submit to God and surrender to their circumstances? To compromise and wait? To try and find their happiness within their situation? I think it is highly unfair that people in these situations have to think of what others might say , or how shld they prove themselves worthy and justifiable when they want to call it quits. .

I agree marriage contract should not be entered into lightly. In some cultures when two families are from similar backgrounds, the guy and girl have good demeanors etc, etc nobody cares if they ‘click’ or not. The parents just tell them to marry. After the marriage, if they don’t click, they have to work themselves through it – they infact do it in majority of cases. They don’t walk out marriages because he snores or she’s got a mole etc. According to Laura Doyle in ‘The Surrendered Wife’ – a marriage mentoring handbook – if he is a ‘good man’ - generally an asian wife tries to work thru her minor issues. Similarly if she is a ‘good girl’ and asian man tries to work thru his minor issues.

The problem in certain societies is not divorce, rather a sanction for divorce when it is the only option.

Thank you for the lyrics, they are beautiful

Peace and blessings to you.




Edited by Nausheen - 01 November 2012 at 11:48pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote aka2x2 Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2012 at 2:05am
A happy marriage is not necessarily a sustainable marriage and vice versa. A few marriages are both but most are not.
We seek the happiness for our sake but we need the sustainability for the sake of our children.
The children are the true victims of divorce. If this fact becomes recognized by the society we would put more resources into strengthening the institution of marriage and less into the divorce industry...

Respectfully
aka2x2
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2012 at 3:06am
Originally posted by aka2x2

A happy marriage is not necessarily a sustainable marriage and vice versa. A few marriages are both but most are not.
We seek the happiness for our sake but we need the sustainability for the sake of our children.
The children are the true victims of divorce. If this fact becomes recognized by the society we would put more resources into strengthening the institution of marriage and less into the divorce industry...
 
Good points. I think many divorces happen for selfish reasons, not caring for the partner nor the children.
 
The point of this thread is that if divorce was prohibited religiously then surely there would not be any divorces. But as somebody has pointed out earlier Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has given mankind an easy religion.
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2012 at 7:58am
I also wonder if having divorced, one reflects upon whether or not they really gave it their best shot to avoid the outcome, which as aka2x2 so accurately pointed out, that it is the children who are often the victims of divorce.  And here I'm speaking of those marriages that end because of "irreconcilable differences" and not dangerous or injurious circumstances, which I'm sure most will agree are legitimate reasons for divorce.  Did he/she just let the marriage slip away without truly struggling?  Did you give up too easily? Why?
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2012 at 5:01pm
Greetings Nausheen,

Your post when reading #1... so crushing to my heart.
I know of these injustices of course.  Just I suppose, for those who do not live in a society where this is every day, the mind protects itself from believing how frequent and common they are.  I had a friend in India - a doctor in training - and I asked him what he found so distressing about being there... He is a very religious/spiritual young man.  He never would tell me.
What I do not understand is that if a contract has been made, then that contract should be satisfied before the marriage, and final after the marriage has taken place.  What needs to change are the laws that allow this sort of thing to happen.

What gets me about this is view of west is so terrible, why, when there are things like this going on in other parts of the world, which to me is so much worse than moral failings of the west.  I mean, yes, morals are way down in the west and this is very distressing, but this senseless killing - so little value of human life?  It is one thing when people's lack of morals, disobedience to God, hurts themselves, but when 'obedience' to God hurts others -  Which is the worse of the two evils?

In cases #2,3,4 of abuse, I agree, no one should live with abuse.  This is so sad for children when there is no solution.
Often what people have done in the past, since divorce is unallowable,  they quietly left their spouse and went somewhere else to live saying that the spouse had died.  Often children were even told this.  This does not break the law of God and allows one to have somewhat of a life, as long as they know that they are still held to their vow of marriage in God's eyes, and anything outside of God's law will be counted as sin against them, and they will be held accountable on judgement day.

These are  the reasons we are admonished not to yoke with unbelievers.  If both do not have God there is no marriage.  Something my mother shared with me:

Marriage Takes Three
 Marriage takes three to be complete;
It's not enough for two to meet.
They must be united in love
By love's Creator, God above.
Then their love will be firm and strong;
Able to last when things go wrong,
Because they've felt God's love and know
He's always there, He'll never go.
And they have both loved Him in kind
With all the heart and soul and mind
And in that love they've found the way
To love each other every day.
A marriage that follows God's plan
Takes more than a woman and a man.
Marriage takes three.
© Beth Stuckwisch/Dicksons

This is why at my wedding ceremony we lit three candles signifying the two becoming in union with God.

Case #5 is what I consider 'bearing the cross' that has been given by God.  Accepting that the marriage was formed and honoring that covenant even though it is imperfect.  It may change as time goes on.  This takes great courage, endurance, faith, obedience... all things that grow character.

What needs to change are the rules by which some of these marriages are created, maybe not so much the rules by which they are broken.  If marriages are made first by better rules, rules of God,  then rules for breaking marriage would not be needed. 
*Sigh 
If only it were a perfect world where all knew how to follow God.

I'm glad you liked the lyrics, now I share with you a poem. Big%20smile

Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 02 November 2012 at 5:09pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2012 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by aka2x2


The children are the true victims of divorce. If this fact becomes recognized by the society we would put more resources into strengthening the institution of marriage and less into the divorce industry...


I very much agree.  It is what is needed.
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