IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: What is this "something else"?

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islamispeace
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Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:50pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

" instead of realizing that it could not have come from God"

So you have the mind of God? You see you place your mind, and your understanding, above God, making your own judgements.
Probably the only difference between me, and these other 'Christian' friends, is that I truly know what I believe and they likely had, or have, no footing in belief but are, or were, still searching. I would be interested in talking to your 'Christian' friends. The term Christian means nothing to me... any more than the term muslim.

Sorry about all the separate posts. I did not expect to have the time to get through your entire post, and so I answered in parts.

Salaam,
CH

Do I know that God is not racist! Of course! I showed you the verse from the Quran, didn't I? I never said that I have the mind of God. Talk about twisting words!

We can now add racism to your list of evils which you have failed to admit could not be from God, in addition to infanticide. Instead, you try to push it aside by using the excuse that we can't understand God's mind, but what you fail to realize that it is not about what is in "God's mind" but being able to distinguish between good and evil. Has not God given us the mental faculties to distinguish right and wrong? Has He not given scripture as well? Are all humans created equal or are Jews (the children) above the Gentiles (the dogs)? How do you feel being called a "dog", assuming you are Gentile?

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Caringheart

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Posted: 16 December 2012 at 1:35pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Let me point out a difference to you.
Calling someone greedy is placing a label on them.
I am asking about written and recited prayers and scriptures. I am not putting labels on muslims. I am asking about their words. I have placed no judgement on the person.
I have shared what those words have been said to mean, by a muslim themselves, and I have asked if other muslims recognize this as a meaning that they convey? And can they see the problem?

So now you admit that you said that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how terrible Jews and Christians are? Going in circles again, are we?

Regardless of where or who you heard it from, you made an accusation that you assumed was true, without knowing if it was. That makes you a stereotypical bigot, and yes...I am labeling you!

Nope. Not what I said at all. I knew you would twist it around to that though.
Or, like I said, simple communications problems.
?
I think you do not choose to try to communicate.

What you say makes an accusation against muslims.
And how many times can I say it...
I'm not making accusations against anyone.
I am asking a question.
Is it possible for you to understand the difference?

(Yes, you are good at putting labels on people. Perhaps it is time you start thinking about the labels that one could apply to yourself if they chose to go that route.) Unhappy

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Caringheart

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Posted: 16 December 2012 at 1:48pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

"... getting to know each other, and try to seek if there is any basis for trust. You say what you say, but there is no proof in what you say either... only whether I believe I can trust or not.
... I am asking the questions, to learn... to see if trust can be had... to see what muslims say of themselves... what do they present to me... Do I see good fruit coming from the tree of Islam towards the rest of the world, or not? Or is the good fruit reserved only for other muslims. If the tree does not bear good fruit for the whole world, it is not a good tree.
I wish to know what muslims themselves actually believe their religion teaches, what it is that they believe they must adhere to. If I wanted to stereotype I would believe whatever I hear and not seek for myself. I would not bother to talk to muslims."

This is about building relationship, trust.
The point bunter and I have been making is that you do not reflect the nature that you say is the nature of the prophet and religion you follow. It is not about 'being insulted' as much as it is about what you reveal of yourself. You do not reveal a good spirit. Your actions and attitudes do not promote a spirit of peace... they do not encourage relationship or trust... they only reveal hostility.

Conversation is about building relationship, understanding... trust. It's about your belief, and my belief, and reaching for mutual understanding. Why is it so hard for you to have a civilized conversation with someone about faith?

Salaam,
CH

Frankly, I could care less if you feel that I don't "reveal a good spirit". Why would I care what an obvious bigot like you thinks?

It's not about what I think, but you should care.
It's about what you represent. If you say you follow Islam, this is what you present, not just to me, but to everyone, about the gracious nature of Islam. That's what you might want to think about. Is this what your Allah expects? Is this how he wants to be represented? You might want to care about what the Creator thinks of your attitude.
I find it ironic that you begin every post with,
"In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful..."

Salaam,
CH

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Caringheart

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Posted: 16 December 2012 at 3:51pm

Thank you ismail,
Now I have a good source to read. The book Muhammad at Mecca sounds interesting. All of Watt's books look interesting.
Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 16 December 2012 at 4:03pm

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Caringheart

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Posted: 17 December 2012 at 12:51am

islamispeace,

The Biblical scriptures do not promote prejudice, or racism, as you like to twist things around. They contain a story which portrays Jesus in a questionable light, but nowhere is it said to practice this behavior. No one goes around quoting this story and saying this is how gentiles are to be seen. Nowhere does it promote treating any person as less than. In fact Jesus showed in the story of the samaritan that all are to be treated as equals. He showed this in His treatment of all sinners, that they are to be given the opportunity to repent, to come to the Lord... in the same way that the woman demonstrated in asking for 'the crumbs' that it is faith that gains favor with God.

Salaam,
CH

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honeto

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Posted: 17 December 2012 at 2:40pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

" instead of realizing that it could not have come from God"

So you have the mind of God? You see you place your mind, and your understanding, above God, making your own judgements.Probably the only difference between me, and these other 'Christian' friends, is that I truly know what I believe and they likely had, or have, no footing in belief but are, or were, still searching. I would be interested in talking to your 'Christian' friends. The term Christian means nothing to me... any more than the term muslim.Sorry about all the separate posts. I did not expect to have the time to get through your entire post, and so I answered in parts.Salaam,CH

Caringheart,
I could not set idle seeing this statements of yours.
You made a claim, and I have been talking to people like you who have the similar claim, but they have disappointed me, I hope you won't, but we cannot say anything yet.
I will ask you three simple questions and expect their answers to be clear, short and to the point, since you say that you truly know what you believe.

Question 1.
God is One. Why do your concept of God in a Trinity contradicts to the Bible itself?

Question 2.
Jesus, you claim him to be God, why does the Bible clearly contradicts that?

Question 3.
Salvation you say is achieved through the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Why does that contradicts the Bible.

I am really interested to know the answers to the aboe questions, as you say you know what you believe.

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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islamispeace
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Posted: 17 December 2012 at 7:00pm

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

islamispeace,

The Biblical scriptures do not promote prejudice, or racism, as you like to twist things around. They contain a story which portrays Jesus in a questionable light, but nowhere is it said to practice this behavior. No one goes around quoting this story and saying this is how gentiles are to be seen. Nowhere does it promote treating any person as less than. In fact Jesus showed in the story of the samaritan that all are to be treated as equals. He showed this in His treatment of all sinners, that they are to be given the opportunity to repent, to come to the Lord... in the same way that the woman demonstrated in asking for 'the crumbs' that it is faith that gains favor with God.

Salaam,
CH

Again, you try to move the goal posts! When did I say that Christians are to "practice this behavior"? Hmmm?

What I said was that your Bible practices racism. This is clear from that one passage in Matthew. What the Bible says elsewhere means nothing because of that one passage! If anything, it only proves what brother Hasan has said all along which is that the Bible is inconsistent and therefore cannot be God's word.

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Caringheart

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Posted: 17 December 2012 at 9:14pm

Originally posted by honeto

Question 1.
God is One. Why do your concept of God in a Trinity contradicts to the Bible itself?

Question 2.
Jesus, you claim him to be God, why does the Bible clearly contradicts that?

Question 3.
Salvation you say is achieved through the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Why does that contradicts the Bible.

I am really interested to know the answers to the aboe questions, as you say you know what you believe.

Hasan

Greetings Hasan,

The answer to all 3 is, "It doesn't".

According to my understanding, according to my belief, my reading, my studying, and what God has revealed to me...

It does not.

As you know... as I keep saying... each person forms their own beliefs... each must form their own belief. God reveals, what He reveals, to whom He wills. There is no way that all people will ever have identical belief, whether they are labeled Jewish, muslim, Christian, Hindu, buddhist, or even atheist. Even within each of these groups their will always be differences of understanding. Every person is an individual, with an individual mind given them by God, and their own individual relationship with God, and that is why only God can judge 'what is between Me and thee'.

Salaam,

Edited by Caringheart - 17 December 2012 at 9:21pm

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Topic: What is this "something else"?
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Author	Message
islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:50pm
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* " instead of realizing that it could not have come from God" So you have the mind of God? You see you place your mind, and your understanding, above God, making your own judgements. Probably the only difference between me, and these other 'Christian' friends, is that I truly know what I believe and they likely had, or have, no footing in belief but are, or were, still searching. I would be interested in talking to your 'Christian' friends. The term Christian means nothing to me... any more than the term muslim. Sorry about all the separate posts. I did not expect to have the time to get through your entire post, and so I answered in parts. Salaam, CH Do I know that God is not racist! Of course! I showed you the verse from the Quran, didn't I? I never said that I have the mind of God. Talk about twisting words! We can now add racism to your list of evils which you have failed to admit could not be from God, in addition to infanticide. Instead, you try to push it aside by using the excuse that we can't understand God's mind, but what you fail to realize that it is not about what is in "God's mind" but being able to distinguish between good and evil. Has not God given us the mental faculties to distinguish right and wrong? Has He not given scripture as well? Are all humans created equal or are Jews (the children) above the Gentiles (the dogs)? How do you feel being called a "dog", assuming you are Gentile?
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 16 December 2012 at 1:35pm
	*Originally posted by islamispeace* *Originally posted by Caringheart* Let me point out a difference to you. Calling someone greedy is placing a label on them. I am asking about written and recited prayers and scriptures. I am not putting labels on muslims. I am asking about their words. I have placed no judgement on the person. I have shared what those words have been said to mean, by a muslim themselves, and I have asked if other muslims recognize this as a meaning that they convey? And can they see the problem? So now you admit that you said that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how terrible Jews and Christians are? Going in circles again, are we? Regardless of where or who you heard it from, you made an accusation that you assumed was true, without knowing if it was. That makes you a stereotypical bigot, and yes...I am labeling you! Nope. Not what I said at all. I knew you would twist it around to that though. Or, like I said, simple communications problems. ? I think you do not choose to try to communicate. What you say makes an accusation against muslims. And how many times can I say it... I'm not making accusations against anyone. I am asking a question. Is it possible for you to understand the difference? (Yes, you are good at putting labels on people. Perhaps it is time you start thinking about the labels that one could apply to yourself if they chose to go that route.)
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 16 December 2012 at 1:48pm
	*Originally posted by islamispeace* *Originally posted by Caringheart* "... getting to know each other, and try to seek if there is any basis for trust. You say what you say, but there is no proof in what you say either... only whether I believe I can trust or not. ... I am asking the questions, to learn... to see if trust can be had... to see what muslims say of themselves... what do they present to me... Do I see good fruit coming from the tree of Islam towards the rest of the world, or not? Or is the good fruit reserved only for other muslims. If the tree does not bear good fruit for the whole world, it is not a good tree. I wish to know what muslims themselves actually believe their religion teaches, what it is that they believe they must adhere to. If I wanted to stereotype I would believe whatever I hear and not seek for myself. I would not bother to talk to muslims." This is about building relationship, trust. The point bunter and I have been making is that you do not reflect the nature that you say is the nature of the prophet and religion you follow. It is not about 'being insulted' as much as it is about what you reveal of yourself. You do not reveal a good spirit. Your actions and attitudes do not promote a spirit of peace... they do not encourage relationship or trust... they only reveal hostility. Conversation is about building relationship, understanding... trust. It's about your belief, and my belief, and reaching for mutual understanding. Why is it so hard for you to have a civilized conversation with someone about faith? Salaam, CH Frankly, I could care less if you feel that I don't "reveal a good spirit". Why would I care what an obvious bigot like you thinks? It's not about what I think, but you should care. It's about what you represent. If you say you follow Islam, this is what you present, not just to me, but to everyone, about the gracious nature of Islam. That's what you might want to think about. Is this what your Allah expects? Is this how he wants to be represented? You might want to care about what the Creator thinks of your attitude. I find it ironic that you begin every post with, "In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful..." Salaam, CH
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 16 December 2012 at 3:51pm
	Thank you ismail, Now I have a good source to read. The book Muhammad at Mecca sounds interesting. All of Watt's books look interesting. Salaam, Caringheart Edited by Caringheart - 16 December 2012 at 4:03pm
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 17 December 2012 at 12:51am
	islamispeace, The Biblical scriptures do not promote prejudice, or racism, as you like to twist things around. They contain a story which portrays Jesus in a questionable light, but nowhere is it said to practice this behavior. No one goes around quoting this story and saying this is how gentiles are to be seen. Nowhere does it promote treating any person as less than. In fact Jesus showed in the story of the samaritan that all are to be treated as equals. He showed this in His treatment of all sinners, that they are to be given the opportunity to repent, to come to the Lord... in the same way that the woman demonstrated in asking for 'the crumbs' that it is faith that gains favor with God. Salaam, CH
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 17 December 2012 at 2:40pm
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* " instead of realizing that it could not have come from God" So you have the mind of God? You see you place your mind, and your understanding, above God, making your own judgements.Probably the only difference between me, and these other 'Christian' friends, is that I truly know what I believe and they likely had, or have, no footing in belief but are, or were, still searching. I would be interested in talking to your 'Christian' friends. The term Christian means nothing to me... any more than the term muslim.Sorry about all the separate posts. I did not expect to have the time to get through your entire post, and so I answered in parts.Salaam,CH Caringheart, I could not set idle seeing this statements of yours. You made a claim, and I have been talking to people like you who have the similar claim, but they have disappointed me, I hope you won't, but we cannot say anything yet. I will ask you three simple questions and expect their answers to be clear, short and to the point, since you say that you truly know what you believe. Question 1. God is One. Why do your concept of God in a Trinity contradicts to the Bible itself? Question 2. Jesus, you claim him to be God, why does the Bible clearly contradicts that? Question 3. Salvation you say is achieved through the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Why does that contradicts the Bible. I am really interested to know the answers to the aboe questions, as you say you know what you believe. Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 17 December 2012 at 7:00pm
	In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful... *Originally posted by Caringheart* islamispeace, The Biblical scriptures do not promote prejudice, or racism, as you like to twist things around. They contain a story which portrays Jesus in a questionable light, but nowhere is it said to practice this behavior. No one goes around quoting this story and saying this is how gentiles are to be seen. Nowhere does it promote treating any person as less than. In fact Jesus showed in the story of the samaritan that all are to be treated as equals. He showed this in His treatment of all sinners, that they are to be given the opportunity to repent, to come to the Lord... in the same way that the woman demonstrated in asking for 'the crumbs' that it is faith that gains favor with God. Salaam, CH Again, you try to move the goal posts! When did I say that Christians are to "practice this behavior"? Hmmm? What I said was that your Bible practices racism. This is clear from that one passage in Matthew. What the Bible says elsewhere means nothing because of that one passage! If anything, it only proves what brother Hasan has said all along which is that the Bible is inconsistent and therefore cannot be God's word.
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 17 December 2012 at 9:14pm
	*Originally posted by honeto* Question 1. God is One. Why do your concept of God in a Trinity contradicts to the Bible itself? Question 2. Jesus, you claim him to be God, why does the Bible clearly contradicts that? Question 3. Salvation you say is achieved through the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Why does that contradicts the Bible. I am really interested to know the answers to the aboe questions, as you say you know what you believe. Hasan Greetings Hasan, The answer to all 3 is, "It doesn't". According to my understanding, according to my belief, my reading, my studying, and what God has revealed to me... It does not. As you know... as I keep saying... each person forms their own beliefs... each must form their own belief. God reveals, what He reveals, to whom He wills. There is no way that all people will ever have identical belief, whether they are labeled Jewish, muslim, Christian, Hindu, buddhist, or even atheist. Even within each of these groups their will always be differences of understanding. Every person is an individual, with an individual mind given them by God, and their own individual relationship with God, and that is why only God can judge 'what is between Me and thee'. Salaam, CH Edited by Caringheart - 17 December 2012 at 9:21pm
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