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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2013 at 3:38pm
 
Originally posted by Nausheen

Hello Caringheart,

I saw Abu Loren's comment only in the context of the first chapter of the Quran.

Technically speaking, the jews and christians of today have rejected faith ... they have rejected the last prophet of God.

Whatever interpretation the western world wants to give it ... be it prejudice, pride etc etc is their way of looking at it.
For me its simply that they have rejected truth - and we muslims are warned in the Quran again and again to not become like them in rejection. Because rejecting faith/truth is the greatest loss for the soul.

I dont have problems with anybody as a human being. But that does not mean I am going to accept or believe that their faith is correct. Im sorry to surprise you, but I do believe that the present day judaism and christianity is wrong - they have gone astray and thus incurred anger of God. I don't know how this translates as being proud. I just don't understand your interpretation.
Just because there are good human beings in every faith does not automatically means every faith is correct.

The quran warns us against every form of rejection of God and His system. Thus we believe in every messenger before Muhammad pbuh, and every book that was sent before HIm. But now that he pbuh is the final messenger, and quran is the final word, salvation through any other route is closed.

I don't know what it means to be a child of God. For me everyone is a creation of God and has the potential to search Him and an opportunity in this life to be guided by Him. Those who sincerely seek Him, do find him.

Definition of friendship is different for different people. It depends on context also. A colleague from work who I sometimes go for coffee with, I call her friend. But that is in a particular context. Im not going to share intimate details of my life with her, though I have compassion for her and would be there for her if she needs me.

Somebody who uses blasphemous words against my prophet, I cannot call such a person friend in any context, because this person does not share my sentiments - rather this person does not care about my sentiments.

So the question is in what context you are talking about friendship and which does that verse refer to - and it does not matter how the western world interprets those verses.

'Pride is not a thing of God... yet Islam promotes it.'

Quoting Hadith Qudsi: Greatness is My upper garment and pride is My lower garment - whosoever tries to compete Me in these two I shall destroy him and I do not care.

This is God speaking of Himself. This is how He warns against pride.
The closest relationship between man and God is that of a humble slave and a mighty Lord - in arabic we say of Ubudiya and Rububiya.
A slave is closest to his lord when he has his forehead on the ground and his heart totally humbled before Him.

Islam says that every disease of heart stems from 4
1. Ujub: self glory
2. Kibr: pride and arrogance
3. Riyaa: Ostentation
4. Hasad: Envy

'These lines of the quran set people against one another simply by the group to which they belong.'

I never saw these verses as a reason to 'go against' the non-muslims or puff myself up with pride as the chosen one. To me these are a warning to not fall in wrongs which caused others to lose the favor of their Lord most High.
You see, there are many people who want to believe that God is compassionate and merciful, but they forget or want to delete the information that God is wise, just, has a system of reward and punishment - sends blessings and tribulations, gives and witholds. We see God as One who has more than 99 different attributes. He is Loving and Kind, but He is also all powerful who can do whatever He wills, while we can do nothing accept what He allows thru His will.

Quran is full of warnings to those who wish to taste paradise. If anyone wants to sit there and feel small or get offended by those verses, then its their choice, for those who take heed is again their choice.

Quran has divided people according to faith and further divided them according to the level of faith. It says the hearafter is more excellent in ranks than this world ... ie depending on ones status in serving the Lord.

Quran also says its a guidance for those who believe in it and a means to go astray for those who reject it.
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nausheen,
 
I am going to challenge what you say.
"Technically speaking, the jews and christians of today have rejected faith"
This means you know as little about Judaism and Christianity, much as others like to accuse of knowng little about Islam and muslims.  You throw all into one category. 

 
"technically speaking"... Do you really think God is a 'technical' God?  If He was then tell me how did he accept David with all of his flaws, faults, and sins?

 
What about the Jews today who are practicing the faith as it was always meant to be?  There are those you know.

 
And what about the Christians who are faithfully practicing the faith the way it was always intended?  There are those also.

 
Do even these have the wrath of God?  I think not.

 
Are there muslims who have the wrath of God?  I think so.  Does this mean we discard all muslims?

 
This is the problem with the teaching of the pride and the prejudice.  There are those who would be proud who truly have the wrath of God, and there are those against whom you would be prejudiced whom truly have the love of God.

 
The quran does not have what the early faith taught.  The quran does not even know what the early faith taught.  But the followers of the early faith do know.  This is why the quran refers you to seek those who have the book... the first scriptures.
"though I have compassion for her and would be there for her if she needs me. "
Would you have compassion and be there for her if she was being persecuted, knowing that she is a good person, would you stand up for your friend?  and if not, is it real friendship?  and do you really serve a loving God?

 
"greater love has no man than this, than he lay down his life for a friend"

 
This is love God approves.

 
"because this person does not share my sentiments - rather this person does not care about my sentiments. "
Perhaps they do not share your sentiments but this does not preclude caring about your sentiments.  It is possible to have differing beliefs and still care about people.  It is possible to care about and respect another persons beliefs even if you do not share them.  At least where I come from and the way I am raised.
 
"and it does not matter how the western world interprets those verses."
In part you are correct... what matters is how they are practiced by the people who learn them... but also,
 here is the crux of the problem.  What if everyone were to say, 'it does not matter what YOU think'?  It always matters what others think.  If you take the attitude that it does not matter then understanding and peace can never be achieved.  We must care about how the other thinks or there will never be understanding... there will never be peace.  Who is it that wants continued misunderstanding and dissention among people?

 
ostentation... let's take a look at this...

 
The muslim way of dress could be considered a form of ostentation... a show or pretense of being better than everyone else... like the pharisees liked to parade or show themselves in their robes.

 
self glory - aren't the muslims taught to glorify themselves... that they are "the best of all peoples"?
 
 
"I never saw these verses as a reason to 'go against' the non-muslims or puff myself up with pride as the chosen one."
It is good that you personally do not feel this way (although I would advise you to take a deep and honest look to be sure)...

 
but this is why we must view each as an individual because while you may not have learned from your scriptures to think you are better than others, there are others who have learned this very lesson, and are likely not even aware that they hold these judgements within themselves.  Who is the great deceiver?  Whose very words in the garden of Eden led Eve astray by their cunning use?

 
I don't think other people feel small or offended by those verses, but it is offensive that those others are taught to think themselves better... that is offensive.  The very fact that you could make such a statement reveals the hidden prejudice that you do have... that you do think you are better... that it's 'not your fault' if 'others feel small' because of you.

 
True servers of God are humble, knowing that they too, like all others, "have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".  There are none who are "the best of peoples".  There are only people, individuals, judged in their hearts only by God Himself.

 
I am frankly surprised that my words made no impact on you.
"How would it be if I said that my god said, 'take no muslim as a friend because they are not followers of God', instead of considering how they conduct themselves in their lives as individuals?"

 
"To sort those who follow God's ways from those who do not is an entirely different matter." -- than what they call themselves by their faith or upbringing.
______________________________
 
I was just asking myself the question this morning;
 
 
Is there, honestly, any muslim who does not think he is better than everyone else?
Can you love a Jew or a Christian?
Let's compare this with what Jesus taught;
Jesus taught, 'every man is a sinner and if there is any that say otherwise, he is a liar'.
Jesus taught that no one is better than any other. He taught to embrace all in love.

 
It's not about who is better than another, at least it should not be... God created us all, and loves us all. Our Creator only wants what is best for us... He is our protector. His Word is to guide us in wisdom and to protect us... to teach us how to love ourselves, by loving the Father who gave us life, and to love one another.
 
 
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another...
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John)
 
 
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans)
 
 
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
 
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. (1 John 2)
 
 
We are all created by the Creator, and born of Adam... all brothers and sisters... all children of the Creator.
 
Salaam,
Caringheart


Hi Caringheart,

Sorry for jumping into yours and Nausheen's conversation. I think what Nausheen is saying is that she has nothing against most Jews and Christians as individual people, but believes our view of God is distorted and false, because it contradicts how He is described in the Quran. She believes Islam is the truth, and those who accept Islam follow the truth and those who reject Islam reject the truth.

I can understand that, because as a Christian that is also how I look at the world. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. His teachings are found in the Bible, we can choose to follow or reject them. He is the Son of God, and God who came to earth in the flesh. He died on the cross for our salvation, we can either be saved by believing in Him and He has done for us, or be condemned to hell by rejecting Him and what He has done for us.

I have many Muslim and other non-Christian friends. They are nice people, and some of them are more moral than some Christians I know, or people who claim to be. I have nothing but friendship for them. Yet I believe their beliefs are wrong, and if they do not accept Jesus they will go to hell.

I would be willing to die for them and other non-Christians... and it was because I stood up for Palestinian Muslims in Hebron that my nose was broken with a metal pipe.

However, I strongly and emphatically reject Islam and Judaism and other non-Christian religions and belief systems. I acknowledge they contain some truths, but where they differ with what the Bible teaches I believe they are wrong.

I am not intolerant of non-Christians, but I do reject and in respectful discussion and debate I challenge whatever conflicts with what Christianity teaches. I don't mean ill to any Muslim, Jew, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, wiccan, etc but I believe they are wrong in their beliefs and pray they come to the Truth.


I think that Nausheen and many Muslims feel the same way about Islam as I feel about Christianity.


May the peace of Christ which surpasses all understanding be with you.


Edited by TG12345 - 09 January 2013 at 3:39pm
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Quote nospam001 Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2013 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Allah does not choose to lead anyone astray. People choose to go astray, and He chooses not to guide those who choose to go astray.
Hi Nausheen

Looking at the Qur'an, is there even a hint of free choice being granted to the infidels? Arguably, but only in one verse that I can find (17:97), and then, only in two of the five translations available on http://www.quranbrowser.org.

Sher Ali and Yusuf Ali use the somewhat passive phrases:
"...whom He leaves to go astray.." and
"...whom He leaves astray.."

whereas three other translations on the same site (Khalifa, Picthall & Shakir) all use more active phrases:
"...whom He sends astray..."
"...whom He sendeth astray...",
"...whomsoever He causeth to err..."

So I guess we are, er, free to choose whichever translation feels right.

More importantly, however, 17:97 is only one out of four verses (2:7, 6:25, 17:97 and 18:57) which repeatedly mention Allah's active role in causing infidels to reject Islam. How? By 'cast[ing] a veil over their hearts...to prevent them from understanding'.

Please correct me if the broader context alters the meaning of these four verses, or if I'm using an unreliable source.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Children blame everything besides themselves when things go wrong.

As a father, I know just what you mean. But I don't hate or condemn my children.

Should I?
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2013 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



Greetings Nausheen,
 
I am going to challenge what you say.
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px;" dir="ltr">
"Technically speaking, the jews and christians of today have rejected faith"
This means you know as little about Judaism and Christianity, much as others like to accuse of knowng little about Islam and muslims.  You throw all into one category. 
 


Hello Caringheart,

I want to ask you one question before I respond to your post.

How does christianity deal with Jews who have rejected Isa pbuh and his message? Do they receive salvation according to your faith? This is a simple question - no rehtoric etc. Please answer me.

Now my response to your 'bunching' everyone in one category comment ...

From one perspective all jews and all christians today are same - they have rejected Muhammad (pbuh), with just one exception, ie those to whom the news of Muhammad (pbuh) has not reached. [to further explain the context in which quran speaks of the people of the book, I have made a separate note at the end of this post]
According to Islamic faith salvation is through the followership of Muhammad pbuh. Those who do not accept his followership, have rejected a protion of their respective revelations - because the coming of last prophet is mentioned in former scriptures - which is not the subject of the current thread so I will not go into the detail of proving it to you right here. Im using this piece of information only to explain why according to the islamic faith jews and christians, despite living according to Torah or Bible are considered as rejecting faith.

Originally posted by Caringheart

"technically speaking"... Do you really think God is a 'technical' God?  If He was then tell me how did he accept David with all of his flaws, faults, and sins?
 


Rejecting faith is not a simple 'flaw'. There has been no prophet who rejected God's command. And we consider prophets as masum ie they're protected from sinning. Whatever follies they might have committed in their lives were never sins.


Originally posted by Caringheart

What about the Jews today who are practicing the faith as it was always meant to be?  There are those you know.


To beleive in Jesus and Bible was a command in their scripture, but when he came he was rejected. And the same was done to Muhammad peace be upon them. This rejection is very serious.

Originally posted by Caringheart

 
And what about the Christians who are faithfully practicing the faith the way it was always intended?  There are those also.


Same response as above. Christians deny the prophecy of Muhammad pbuh in their bible and then go on to reject him and the Quran. They may be following the bible, but not to the letter.

Now, let me guess what is going on in your mind. If you are thinking that simply because a muslim has accepted all prophets including Muhammad pbuh, he should be proud, treat the jews and christians with slight and should feel safe regarding his salvation - then you do not know Islam. because this is not what is meant.
What is meant is that the basic - bottom line requirement for salvation is acceptance of One God, ALL his messnegers, ALL His books and angels - this is first building block - its not everything, rather the starting point.


Originally posted by Caringheart

 
Do even these have the wrath of God?  I think not.
 

Caringheart, are we here to discuss a christian's impression of the Quran, or the intended message of the Quran? Please do not get me wrong. I do not mean to offend you, but what matters in the end is how well one understands the true message of the Quran, irrespective of what you think or I think.




Im not sure what you have understood by 'the context of first chapter' to clarify, Jews and christians are referred as
1. those who were true followers of Moses or Jesus peace be upon them, and were living according to their respective scriptures.
2. Those for whome one would say that the terms were mere lables.

As for the true followers, Allah will judge them according to their scriptures on the day of judgement if they lived and died before the complete message of Islam was delivered.
Once Islam has been completed (as it took 23 years to give it final shape), there is no other route to salvation.
Today there is no other religion acceptable before God. Therefore any to whome the message has reached, its their personal duty to accept. For those who are still unaware of the message, are the only one who will be excused.

.... You will find the nearest in love to Muslims those who say "we are Christians'. That is because amongst them are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the Quran revelation received by the Messenger (Muhammad), you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognized. They say ' O Lord! we believe; so write us down among the witnesses. And why should we not believe in Allah (God) and in that which has come to us of the truth (Islamic Monotheism)? and we wish our Lord admit us in Paradise along with righteous people (prophet Muhammad and his followers). So because of what they said, Allah (God) rewarded them Gardens under which rivers flow in Paradise where they abide forever. Such is the reward of the good-doers. But those who disbelieved (Quran God revelation and Muhammad prophecy) they shall be the dwellers of the Hell"
[Quran, chapter 5, verses 82-86]
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2013 at 9:19pm
TG12345,

Thank you so much for this response, you've saved me a great deal of time and answered a few questions I had to Christians.

Originally posted by TG12345

 

Hi Caringheart,Sorry for jumping into yours and Nausheen's conversation. I think what Nausheen is saying is that she has nothing against most Jews and Christians as individual people, but believes our view of God is distorted and false, because it contradicts how He is described in the Quran. She believes Islam is the truth, and those who accept Islam follow the truth and those who reject Islam reject the truth.I can understand that, because as a Christian that is also how I look at the world. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. His teachings are found in the Bible, we can choose to follow or reject them. He is the Son of God, and God who came to earth in the flesh. He died on the cross for our salvation, we can either be saved by believing in Him and He has done for us, or be condemned to hell by rejecting Him and what He has done for us.[/quote]

Thank you for sharing this concept. I was confused by Caringheart's comments and wondered if evereyone was acceptable according to christianity. That would not make sense to me.


Originally posted by TG12345

 I have many Muslim and other non-Christian friends. They are nice people, and some of them are more moral than some Christians I know, or people who claim to be. I have nothing but friendship for them. Yet I believe their beliefs are wrong, and if they do not accept Jesus they will go to hell.


My point exactly. I too believe in friendships with non-muslisms yet regard their belief as wrong and honestly I pray Allah shows them the light so they can be saved.
You wont believe my mother prays that for all Japanese, just because I live here.

I echo your sentiments and thank you for sharing them here. I pray you are able to see the light of Muahmmad through the light of Jesus, ameen. (peach and blessings of them both)

Originally posted by TG12345

 I would be willing to die for them and other non-Christians... and it was because I stood up for Palestinian Muslims in Hebron that my nose was broken with a metal pipe.


Im sorry for you!

Originally posted by TG12345

 However, I strongly and emphatically reject Islam and Judaism and other non-Christian religions and belief systems. I acknowledge they contain some truths, but where they differ with what the Bible teaches I believe they are wrong.I am not intolerant of non-Christians, but I do reject and in respectful discussion and debate I challenge whatever conflicts with what Christianity teaches. I don't mean ill to any Muslim, Jew, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, wiccan, etc but I believe they are wrong in their beliefs and pray they come to the Truth.I think that Nausheen and many Muslims feel the same way about Islam as I feel about Christianity. May the peace of Christ which surpasses all understanding be with you.


I am so relieved to see a mirror of my beliefs - it really makes discussions flow - otherwise we only end up hurting other's sensitivities and in the end get nothing.

Once again thank you!
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2013 at 9:27pm
Hello Nausheen,
 
Thank you for continuing this discussion, and you do not need to worry about offending me.

i understand the technicality of your religion. It is this that I challenge. Why the technicality? Why set people up against each other? Who would do this? the one who created them all? I don't think so. Why do you suppose your religion creates this divide? Can this truly be the religion of the God of Abraham?

Here's the thing. While I suppose I believe, because according to Jesus it has been taught... that at the end of days all will come to see the Truth that is Jesus... including the Jews who have currently rejected Him. This in no way precludes my treating them as equals on earth, and as friends deserving of all equal rights and treatment. It is judgement day that will separate the wheat from the chaff. That is the realm of God to determine, not humans. 

David's illicit relationship with Bathsheba was not a sin? Having her husband killed was not a sin?

Noah when he got drunk and had relations with his daughters... this was not a human sin?

Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land because God considered that he had sinned against Him.

Jacob did not sin when he deceived his father into givng him his brothers inheritance?

Solomon was absolutely guilty of sin in God's eyes as he took wives who led him away from God and back into idol worship.

 

"what matters in the end is how well one understands the true message of the Quran"

I agree and therein lies the problem... there are so many ways that the quran can be, and is, interpreted. It is impossible to define one true message of the quran except to accept that Muhammad was a prophet... and there were many false prophets, and Jesus said there would be many false prophets to come after Him. The age of prophesy ended... i.e., God stopped sending prophets when His temple in Jerusalem was destroyed and the Israelites became the diaspora... when they were no longer all together in one place God stopped sending prophets.

Was Muhammad meant to be a prophet to the children of Ishmael? I don't know, but if he was then to Ishmael's children only he was sent, if he was indeed sent by God, and lies and deception creeped into the Truth of God, if indeed, by God he was sent.

 

surah 5:82

Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud

What Muhammad was seeing in the Christians was their Love and humility, the Love and humility that comes from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Christians willing to reach out in Love and acceptance to those who do not believe, rather than condemn them, as Jesus did not condemn but rather invited to repentance. This is why Muhammad felt that the Christians were accepting of him where the Jews and idol worshipers were not. The difference is Christ Jesus. What he was seeing was the Love of Christians that comes through Christ.

You didn't answer this question;
"Are there muslims who have the wrath of God? I think so. Does this mean we discard all muslims?"
and this one;
"Can you love a Jew or a Christian?"
Peace and blessings to you,
Caringheart
 
question;
 
What does it matter whether or not one accepts Muhammad as a prophet?  Isn't the thing that should matter, whether or not one serves God?  If I am honoring God in the same way you are honoring God, I simply do it for love of Jesus while you do it for love of Muhammad.... the Jews do it for love of God, period...
 
Isn't the thing that is going to matter to God, whether or not we served Him as He told us to serve Him...
 
"whenever you did for the least of these you did it for me, and when you did not do for the least you did not for me"  (parable of Jesus)
 
Don't you think that will be the thing God will be looking at... whether or not we had love for Him and for one another?  What is God, and what is the gift of life, if not Love itself?


Edited by Caringheart - 10 January 2013 at 9:07am
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2013 at 5:13am
Originally posted by Nausheen

TG12345,

Thank you so much for this response, you've saved me a great deal of time and answered a few questions I had to Christians.

Salaam Alaikum, Nausheen. No problem at all.

Originally posted by TG12345

Hi Caringheart,Sorry for jumping into yours and Nausheen's conversation. I think what Nausheen is saying is that she has nothing against most Jews and Christians as individual people, but believes our view of God is distorted and false, because it contradicts how He is described in the Quran. She believes Islam is the truth, and those who accept Islam follow the truth and those who reject Islam reject the truth.I can understand that, because as a Christian that is also how I look at the world. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. His teachings are found in the Bible, we can choose to follow or reject them. He is the Son of God, and God who came to earth in the flesh. He died on the cross for our salvation, we can either be saved by believing in Him and He has done for us, or be condemned to hell by rejecting Him and what He has done for us.


Originally posted by Nausheen

Thank you for sharing this concept. I was confused by Caringheart's comments and wondered if evereyone was acceptable according to christianity. That would not make sense to me.

According to Christianity, God loves every person, and has made the ultimate sacrifice on the cross. Every person can accept or reject what God has done for them and choose to believe or not believe. Faith includes works, without works it is dead. Those who accept what He has done for us and choose to follow are saved. Those who do not are condemned. [/QUOTE]


Originally posted by TG12345

 I have many Muslim and other non-Christian friends. They are nice people, and some of them are more moral than some Christians I know, or people who claim to be. I have nothing but friendship for them. Yet I believe their beliefs are wrong, and if they do not accept Jesus they will go to hell.


Originally posted by Nausheen

My point exactly. I too believe in friendships with non-muslisms yet regard their belief as wrong and honestly I pray Allah shows them the light so they can be saved.
You wont believe my mother prays that for all Japanese, just because I live here.

I definitely believe your mother does that. You sound like a caring and compassionate person, and when you talk to Christians and other non-Muslims you do it more respectfully than some others on this forum. You must have gotten it from someone. Smile

Originally posted by Nausheen

I echo your sentiments and thank you for sharing them here. I pray you are able to see the light of Muahmmad through the light of Jesus, ameen. (peach and blessings of them both) 

Thank you for your kind words. With all due respect and to be completely honest, although I do have respect for Muhammad and agree with some things he said and did, in other ways his message was the complete opposite of Christ's teachings and he unfortunately rejected Jesus' suffering for him- and for s all- on the cross. I cannot follow him without rejecting Jesus... which for me would include rejecting His teachings and sacrifice for us.

I pray and hope you will be able to see the light of Jesus, whether or not you are drawn to Him by Islam.

Originally posted by TG12345

 I would be willing to die for them and other non-Christians... and it was because I stood up for Palestinian Muslims in Hebron that my nose was broken with a metal pipe.


Originally posted by Nausheen

Im sorry for you!

Don't be. God made so much good come out of it. Prior to the attack on me and my friend, the villager's plight was unnoticed by some of the human rights groups, and even some Palestinians in Hebron were unaware of what was going on. The attack helped raise awareness to their plight, and now it is one of the places where CPT has a permanent presence.

I was treated with outmost kindness at the Palestinian hospital I stayed in, where I had my surgery where my nose was put back together (insert Michael Jackson joke here if you want LOL) and the surgery was a great success. I had over 100 visitors... people who just heard what happened and didn't even know me but came to visit me and brought food and best wishes, people who were complete strangers. I didn't cry from the beating, probably because I was immediately knocked out by the blow to my face, but I was choked up by the kindness my Palestinian visitors showed. Some of them were curious as to why a Christian would come from my country to help Muslims and some had questions about my beliefs and others wanted to share Islam with me. In both cases I was able to not only to have good discussion but also share my faith in Jesus. I also had a great discussion with an agnostic fellow activist who was curious about my faith after I got out of the hospital.

God allowed me to forgive my attackers and pray for them, this was one thing I wasn't sure if I would be able to do if I was in a situation like this one. He gave me the strength. Prior to me going to Palestine, I was struggling with some emotional problems caused by some things that happened in my life that I will not go into, God helped me immensely through this event to let go of them.

I did not go to the West Bank to get my a** kicked, although I went there knowing there was a possibility of getting hurt or worse but it was a risk I was willing to take. Getting harmed was not my intent in any way.

However, God made so much good come of it, I can only thank Him for it. Please do not be sad for me.

If you are interested in reading about the attack and its aftermath, here is an account and some pictures from the blog.

The story of what happened
http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/friday-morning-under-fig-tree-weekend.html

Pictures
http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/friday-morning.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/friday-morning-pictures-2.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/friday-morning-3.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/attack-aftermath-warning-graphic.html


And remember that whatever suffering I faced is laughable when compared to the horrific and often more harmful and deadly atrocities committed against our Palestinian Muslims and Christian brothers and sisters.

Check out the blog, and remember that the abuses we saw the IDF commit against our Palestinian friends is only the tip of the iceberg.

These are only some of the abuses we witnessed and heard of our Palestinian friends going through.

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/07/vicious-attack.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/07/crime-scene.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/07/al-arakib-destroyed.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/07/settler-tour.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/waging-war-against-civilians_11.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/people-being-attacked-and-arrested.html

http://livingstones-tomasz.blogspot.ca/2010/08/another-beating-in-al-buweyre.html


Originally posted by TG12345

 However, I strongly and emphatically reject Islam and Judaism and other non-Christian religions and belief systems. I acknowledge they contain some truths, but where they differ with what the Bible teaches I believe they are wrong.I am not intolerant of non-Christians, but I do reject and in respectful discussion and debate I challenge whatever conflicts with what Christianity teaches. I don't mean ill to any Muslim, Jew, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, wiccan, etc but I believe they are wrong in their beliefs and pray they come to the Truth.I think that Nausheen and many Muslims feel the same way about Islam as I feel about Christianity. May the peace of Christ which surpasses all understanding be with you.


Originally posted by Nausheen

I am so relieved to see a mirror of my beliefs - it really makes discussions flow - otherwise we only end up hurting other's sensitivities and in the end get nothing.

Once again thank you!


Thank YOU for the great discussion! I am of the opinion that discussions about faith need to be honest, it is no use being politically correct if in the process we compromise the Truth.

Take care.


Edited by TG12345 - 10 January 2013 at 5:29am
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2013 at 9:06am
Originally posted by TG12345

 
Hi Caringheart,
Sorry for jumping into yours and Nausheen's conversation.
It's ok, all are welcome. Smile
It makes the conversation richer.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2013 at 9:14am
Something to add;

Jesus came to save the lost.

How do you define 'the lost'?   Only as someone who does not accept Muhammad?

See because I define the lost as one who does not know God.

There are many ways to know God, and there are many who know Him without knowing or accepting Muhammad.

I am sure that there are many who know Him without knowing Jesus.  Jesus is a way... He leads the lost.  If you are not lost do you need Jesus?  God knows which are lost and which know Him.  I beleive we are all given a knowing at birth, so some never get lost, others do and need a shepherd to lead them home.
 
"they that are whole, have no need of the physician, but they that are sick"  (the words of Jesus)
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