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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 28 August 2013 at 12:50pm
Greetings NABA,

I am referring to forgiveness towards one another.  My God guides us to forgive one another.

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have also had compassion on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


This is one of the parables of Yahshua.



Edited by Caringheart - 28 August 2013 at 12:52pm
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NABA
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2013 at 9:56am
what was the message from ch 41 v 34???that U should forgive,there is only one God and that is Allah.
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2013 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

"What is this something else?"Muhammad was served,demanded to be served.

Who served him?? and from who did he demand?


The Disciples of Jesus were (and are) led to serve, not to be served.Jesus was the servant.  It was He who washed the feet of His disciples.Salaam.
Why did you forget this verse?
HIS INVECTIVES AGAINST THE ELDERS OF HIS PEOPLE:
(a) "Ye hypocrites . . ." MATTHEW 23:13
"Ye wicked and adulterous generation . . ." MATTHEW 16:4
"Ye whited sepulchres . . ." MATTHEW 23:27
"Ye generation of vipers . . ." MATTHEW 23:33


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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2014 at 11:39am
qur'an says - only if you can treat your wives equally
yet, Aisha was given two nights because she was his favorite wife


Muhammad's wife Hafsa - catches Muhammad committing adultery with slave girl Mary(a coptic)
'I will make your father caliph, only do not tell Aisha'
qur'an 66:1 - this is where Muhammad gives himself permission (through 'allah') to take whomever he pleases for a wife and/or concubine

66:1 O Prophet! Why bannest thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives ? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


Here's another good one;
66:2 Allah hath made lawful for you (Muslims) absolution from your oaths (of such a kind), and Allah is your Protector. He is the Knower, the Wise.

God won't hold you to your promises.... he will 'absolve you from them'.


Major difference - When David in the Bible commits adultery with Bathsheba, he confesses that he has sinned against God and God rebukes him for his sin...

in the qur'an when Muhammad commits the sin of adultery(when his wife Hafsa catches him with Mary), his god, allah, relieves him from his oath... gives permission for adultery.
______________________
and there is this:
Muhammad actually encouraged the rape of others captured in battle. This hadith provides the context for the Qur’anic verse (4:24):

    The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain.  They met their enemy and fought with them.  They defeated them and took them captives.

    Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers.  So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

Actually, as the hadith indicates, it wasn't Muhammad, but "Allah the Exalted" who told the men to rape the women in front of their husbands - which is all the more reason not to think of Islam as being a religion of God.

Note also that the husbands of these unfortunate victims were obviously alive after battle.  This is important because it flatly contradicts those apologists who like to argue that the women Muhammad enslaved were widowed and thus unable to fend for themselves.  (Even if the apologists were right, what sort of a moral code is it that forces a widow to choose between being raped and starving?)


There are several other episodes in which Muhammad is offered the clear opportunity to disavow raping women - yet he instead offers advice on how to proceed.  In one case, his men were reluctant to devalue their new slaves for later resale by getting them pregnant.  Muhammad was asked about coitus interruptus in particular:

    "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?"  The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

As indicated, the prophet of Islam did not mind his men raping the women, provided they ejaculated within the bodies of their victims.

    "We went out with Allah's Messenger on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger, and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

As one might imagine, Muhammad's obvious approval of raping women captured in battle and his own personal participation as recorded in many places is of intense inconvenience to the Muslim apologists of our time.  For this reason, some of them attempt to explain away these many episodes and Qur'anic references to sex with captives by pretending that these are cases in which women have fled bad marriages and sought refuge with the Muslims.  Some apologists even refer to them as "wives," even though the Qur'an makes a clear distinction between "those whom thy right hand possesses" and true wives (see Sura 33:50).
    "Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham/Hisham 693)
Is it Islamic to sell one's wife for horses?  Clearly these were not wives!


    “…and then we attacked from all sides and reached their watering-place where a battle was fought.  Some of the enemies were killed and some were taken prisoners.  I saw a group of persons that consisted of women and children [escaping in the distance].  I was afraid lest they should reach the mountain before me, so I shot an arrow between them and the mountain.  When they saw the arrow, they stopped.  So I brought them, driving them along
    I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize.  So we arrived in Medina.  I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.” (Sahih Muslim 4345)


The prophet of Islam and his companions used war to collect women for personal sexual use and for trading.  Unless she was arbitrarily declared as someone's wife, the woman became a sex slave.
_____________________________________

No, it's just not possible... no matter how many times I come back to study Muhammad I always find him reprehensible.

It is possible that the 'Christians' are astray,
but there is nothing that can convince me that Muhammad is a 'prophet of God'.

Interesting bit I came across:

Several scholars, who have studied the origins of the Quran, have concluded that the traditional Islamic claim of the Quran being the “verbal word of God”, transmitted to Muhammad by Angel Gabriel, is not true. For example, the quotations enshrined on the Dome of the Rock mosque in Jerusalem do not match the canonical texts of the Quran.

The Quran seems to be a collection of religious and political statements from various sources that was assembled in its final form as an Arab national religious text during the rivalry between Caliph Abd al-Malik and Abdullah ibn As-Zubair around 685 – some 53 years after Muhammad died (See “Did Muhammad Exist?” by Robert Spencer, pg.58).

Prior to that time there is no clear reference to Muhammad as a prophet of Islam in either Islamic or secular accounts.


Edited by Caringheart - 17 June 2014 at 11:47am
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2014 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

No, it's just not possible... no matter how many times I come back to study Muhammad I always find him reprehensible.

It is possible that the 'Christians' are astray,
but there is nothing that can convince me that Muhammad is a 'prophet of God'.


Ah the hypocrisy of Christian fanatics!  LOL

Have you ever read the so-called "Old Testament", known to Jews as the Tanakh?!  You might find more than a few example of "reprehensible" behavior.  Oh but no, that behavior is hunky-dory for shameless ignoramuses such as "Caringheart".  Oooookay!   

Originally posted by Caringheart

nteresting bit I came across:

Several scholars, who have studied the origins of the Quran, have concluded that the traditional Islamic claim of the Quran being the “verbal word of God”, transmitted to Muhammad by Angel Gabriel, is not true. For example, the quotations enshrined on the Dome of the Rock mosque in Jerusalem do not match the canonical texts of the Quran.

The Quran seems to be a collection of religious and political statements from various sources that was assembled in its final form as an Arab national religious text during the rivalry between Caliph Abd al-Malik and Abdullah ibn As-Zubair around 685 – some 53 years after Muhammad died (See “Did Muhammad Exist?” by Robert Spencer, pg.58).

Prior to that time there is no clear reference to Muhammad as a prophet of Islam in either Islamic or secular accounts.


Ooooh,  Robert Spencer!  Well, you got me there...NOT! Big%20smile 

Well, at least now we know where "Caringheart" gets most of her information about Islam from!

An excellent review of Spencer's comically absurd book "Did Muhammad Exist" can be found here:  http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/review/161017061X/R1APSU773HNOSC?cursor=1&filter=1&sort=byRankDescending

Anyway, first, let us consider the pseudo-scholar Spencer's claims about the Dome of the Rock inscription (for a good expose of Spencer's shoddy scholarship, see here).  Besides the numerous first century AH manuscripts that we have (see here), the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock contain verses from the Quran which also have "tafsir" or commentary to explain the meaning.  The following is taken from an article written by a real scholar published in the Journal of the American Oriental Society:

"Within this context it is clear that the minor textual variations noted have been introduced to fit the sense. Such alteration of the standard Qur'anic text in order to express a particular theme seems always to have been acceptable in Islamic inscriptions, however rigidly the actual recitation of the Qur'an may have been regulated; even inscriptions of much later dates, when there is no question that a "canonical" text of the Qur'an had been established, embody such variations.[22] It is difficult to believe that the selection and coherent arrangement of passages in the time of ‘Abd al-Malik would not have influenced the "canonical" arrangement of the text had codification taken place in his reign or later. It seems particularly unlikely that the combination of phrases from 64:1 and 57:2, repeated twice, could originally have been a unitary statement that was then "deconstructed" and incorporated into different parts of the Qur'an.

The copper inscriptions do not appear to represent "deviations" from the current standard text; rather, they belong to a tradition of using Qur'anic and other familiar phrases, paraphrases, and allusions in persuasive messages, in fact sermons, whether actual khutbahs or not.[31] Of a number of such texts two examples cited by al-Tabari should suffice to demonstrate the point.

In a sermon supposedly delivered to the people of Khunasirah in northern Syria in 101 / 719-20, ‘Umar b. ‘Abd al-‘Aziz included the phrase "nor will you be left aimless,"[32] a clear reference to Qur'an 75:36: "Thinketh man that he will be left aimless?"[33] A more extended example, involving some of the same passages used at the Dome of the Rock, is the first part of a sermon delivered by Da'ud b.‘Isa, governor of Makkah, in 196 / 811-12.[34]

"Praise be to God, Owner of Sovereignty unto whom He wills and withdraws sovereignty from whom He wills, who exalts whom He wills and abases whom He wills. In His hand is the good; He is Able to do all things" [3:26, with change from direct address to God to the descriptive third-person singular]. "I bear witness that there is no God save Him . . . there is no God save Him, the Almighty, the Wise" [3:18, with shift from the third-person plural to the first-person singular and concomitant omission of references to angels and men of learning as beating witness]. "And I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and His messenger, whom He sent to bring the religion, through whom He sealed the prophets" [further declaration of faith] "and whom He made a mercy for the peoples" [21:107, with shift from first-person plural to third-person singular].[35]" (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/Estwitness.html

Second, let us respond to the Christian fanatic's absurd statement that there is "no clear reference to Muhammad as a prophet of Islam in either Islamic or secular accounts".  In fact, reality shows the exact opposite.  Here is a list of dated texts, both Islamic and non-Islamic (the latter of which are mostly from hostile Christian fanatics - go figure!):

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlysaw.html


One of the earliest non-Muslim accounts is that of Sebeos, an Armenian bishop. 

And as the Amazon review referenced above states, there are plenty of Islamic sources from before the reign of Abd Al-Malik which mention Muhammad as the prophet of God.  The review states:

"As for Islamic texts, they include the Qur'an, the constitution of medina, the sahifa of Hamam ibn Munabih and the sahifa of Abdullah ibn `Aas. Three of these texts are contemporary with Muhammad and the other derives from a contemporary."

I guess Robert Spencer needs to go back to school!  Maybe "Caringheart" can join him! LOL  After all, birds of a feather flock together. 

But seriously, anybody with even an ounce of reason (which obviously does not include "Caringheart" Wink) can see the shoddy scholarship of *****s like Spencer and his ilk.  "Caringheart" is obviously just another nut who gets most of her information about Islam from other nuts.  It appears she is in fact a Spencer groupie!


Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2014 at 2:30pm
Hi islamispeace,

Thanks for the additional info.(but not for the mockulatory attitude with which it was shared Ermm)

I don't feel as though the statement that was made (I can't say either that it was a statement made by Spencer, that was just the earlier reference)
anyway, I don't think it was made against the existence of Muhammad.  We know that he existed.  I believe it was about the condition of calling him a prophet.... that came later... a possible later addition to his story... an embellishment after the fact of his existence?

asalaam,
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 21 June 2014 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Thanks for the additional info.(but not for the mockulatory attitude with which it was shared Ermm)


Hey, you deserve nothing but the "mockulatory attitude".  You deserve nothing but ridicule, because you are a phony.  You are a Christian fanatic who pretends like she is interested learning but who is in fact nothing more than a liar with a polemical agenda.  You spread lies.  So you can damn well expect to be hit hard with the facts.  Oh, I am sorry, was I being "mockulatory"?  LOL

Originally posted by Caringheart

I don't feel as though the statement that was made (I can't say either that it was a statement made by Spencer, that was just the earlier reference)
anyway, I don't think it was made against the existence of Muhammad.  We know that he existed.  I believe it was about the condition of calling him a prophet.... that came later... a possible later addition to his story... an embellishment after the fact of his existence?


Still not getting it, eh?  As the author of the Amazon review of Spencer's absurd book states:

As for Islamic texts, they include the Qur'an, the constitution of medina, the sahifa of Hamam ibn Munabih and the sahifa of Abdullah ibn `Aas. Three of these texts are contemporary with Muhammad and the other derives from a contemporary."

All of these sources, which were contemporary with the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) refer to him as the Prophet of God.  For example, the Quran states:

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things." (Surah Al-Ahzab, 33:40)

Even Sebeos, the Armenian bishop, made it clear that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was regarded as a Prophet by his followers:

"At that time a certain man from along those same sons of Ismael, whose name was Mahmet [i.e., Muḥammad], a merchant, as if by God's command appeared to them as a preacher [and] the path of truth. He taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially because he was learnt and informed in the history of Moses. Now because the command was from on high, at a single order they all came together in unity of religion. Abandoning their vain cults, they turned to the living God who had appeared to their father Abraham. So, Mahmet legislated for them: not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsely, and not to engage in fornication. He said: 'With an oath God promised this land to Abraham and his seed after him for ever. And he brought about as he promised during that time while he loved Ismael. But now you are the sons of Abraham and God is accomplishing his promise to Abraham and his seed for you. Love sincerely only the God of Abraham, and go and seize the land which God gave to your father Abraham. No one will be able to resist you in battle, because God is with you."

If you want to talk about "embellishments", then there is no better topic that the invented divinity of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him).  Jesus was nothing more than a man, albeit a Prophet of God.  But heretics that came after him turned him into "God".  How could this be when he was clearly not all-knowing or all-seeing, which are of course, attributes of the One, True God?  Jesus, according to your "gospels", couldn't figure out whether a fig tree he saw in the distance had any figs (it didn't because it was not the right season)!  Yet, you believe he was God!  Now THAT is an embellishment!  It is one of the greatest lies ever told! 


Edited by islamispeace - 21 June 2014 at 2:33pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 21 June 2014 at 4:44pm
Greetings islamispeace,

Well, fine, if you feel you must take a mocking attitude, but I feel no such need.  Peace to you.

Anyway, I do not see Sebeos referring to Muhammad as a 'prophet',
but as one,
" learnt and informed in the history of Moses."
'Muhammad a merchant, and a preacher' teaching of the God of Abraham...

As regards Yshwe, you say he was not all knowing, and yet we have from His own words proof.  He knew, from the beginning, for what He had come.

18 ... the Jews ... said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

asalaam.


Edited by Caringheart - 21 June 2014 at 4:47pm
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