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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: What is this "something else"? Post Reply Post New Topic
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Thank you for your kind words. With all due respect and to be completely honest, although I do have respect for Muhammad and agree with some things he said and did, in other ways his message was the complete opposite of Christ's teachings and he unfortunately rejected Jesus' suffering for him- and for s all- on the cross. I cannot follow him without rejecting Jesus... which for me would include rejecting His teachings and sacrifice for us.


Originally posted by TG12345

TG, you are very honest to say the least.
I saw your statements in the other thread on General Discussions as well. It looks like you are stuck.

If you believe in Jesus pbuh as mentioned in the bible then you cannot believe in Muhammad pbuh. If you want to believe in Muhammad pbuh, then you will have to change your belief about Jesus pbuh – Since the two cannot make sense at the same time.

Your logic holds true both ways. If the crucification is true, then surely the Quran is wrong But by the same token, if the Quran is correct, then the Bible has got to be wrong.

I cannot conceive of God as a part of His creation, thus isa alaihe salam, who was clearly born to a mortal, and being raised to level of almighty confuse me.

Another thing I cannot accept is, God being perfectly just, how can he make someone else die for the sins of others in His creation. This is rather a very dangerous concept to me, because it spells out carelessness on other’s part – as if there is no accountability on anyone else, because Jesus alaihe salam has already received a punishment on behalf of everyone else.

What are your comments regarding the Christian king of Abysinia who accepted Islam upon hearing the verses of Surah Maryam (ch. 19)? [Presuming you know this event in the history of islam]
Also what do you think about the Christian Monk, an Uncle of Khadija (the mother of believers, may Allah be pleased with her), who prophecised about Muhammad, pbuh, being a prophet?

Thank you for your message. I enjoyed talking to you.


Salaam Alaikum, Nausheen. Thanks for the response.

I agree with you, it is not possible for both the Bible and Quran to be correct in regards to Jesus. In order to become Muslim, I would have to deny what Christianity teaches about Jesus. In order to become Christian, you would have to deny what Islam teaches about Him.

Can I ask you why you would find it difficult to accept God could make Himself, temporarily and voluntarily, a part of His creation? Why would He not be able to come down and live among us?

Think of a good military leader (perhaps a bad analogy as I am a pacifist but I'll use it anyways. Smile). Who is the better one... one who sits at his desk far away from the front and plans strategies and orders others to sacrifice; or one who goes on the front line as his soldiers, takes risks for them, and personally demonstrates what he expects of them and inspires them with his courage? Who do you think is doing a better job?

In regards to the point you made about the unfairness of someone who is innocent being made to suffer for the sins of somebody else, remember that according to the Bible Jesus is God, like the Father and Holy Spirit. God did not force an innocent man to suffer and die for the sins of the world, He took this burden on Himself.

Jesus' death on the cross does not give us a license to sin... that kind of attitude is harshly condemned in the New Testament.

Romans 6:15-19


15 
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,c]">[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.


I John 3:6-10

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; nno one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, olet no one deceive you. pWhoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. qWhoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was rto destroy the works of the devil. sNo one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s2 seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

A person who is a Christian, like a person who is a Muslim or of any other faith, may have temptations and sins he or she struggles with. We do not become completely free from sin, but we try to avoid it. We do not "make a practice of it".

1 John 1:5-10


lThis is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that mGod is light, and in him is no darkness at all. nIf we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and odo not practice the truth. But pif we walk in the light, qas he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and rthe blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. sIf we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and tthe truth is not in us. uIf we confess our sins, he is vfaithful and just to forgive us our sins and rto cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, wwe make him a liar, and xhis word is not in us.

When Christians fall we are called to confess them to God, and allow Him to forgive us and cleanse us so we can keep trying to be better servants of His.

I have to admit I don't know much about King Negus, other than that he granted shelter to Muhammad and his companions as they fled persecution and that Muhammad mourned him after he died. I am glad he gave refuge to Muhammad and his companions, it is every Christian's duty to help those who are homeless and hungry, and Muhammad and his followers certainly fit that description after the injustices they were being subjected to. I did not know King Negus converted to Islam, where does the Quran or hadiths say this?

Out of curiousity, are you aware of historical sources outside the Quran and hadith that can confirm this claim?

Jesus' crucifixion was recorded by the Roman historian Tacitus, who although is widely respected for the accuracy of his works, was also very anti-Christian and would not have been influenced by the early church.

But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the Bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements Which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero From the infamy of being believed to have ordered the Conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he Falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were Hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was Put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign Of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time Broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief Originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things Hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their Center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first Made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an Immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of Firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.html

To be honest, the story of the Christian monk I think throws into doubt the Muslim claim that the alleged Gospel that was given to Jesus was corrupted, since Waraqa used to write from the Gospel in Hebrew, and wrote as much as God wanted him to write.

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=gospel&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all


If the Gospel was lost and what remained a corruption by men, why would God allow him to write at all from it, much less tell him how much to write?


Good talking to you and looking forward to hearing your response. I'll be probably off the forum for a few days until next week, will respond to your reply then.

Allahma3k.

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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 11:35am
Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Rational

Curious to know, would you have believed if it wasn't for those versus?
Interesting question. I presume the seal would still function as intended regardless of whether it is mentioned in scripture.

Yes, but assume that you weren't  aware of this seal, is there anything else that irks you?

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nospam001
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Quote nospam001 Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 7:17pm

Originally posted by Rational

Yes, but assume that you weren't aware of this seal, is there anything else that irks you?
Yes, all the usual stuff you get from agnostics. For brevity's sake, my qualms are much the same as the ones stated most eloquently on this forum by Ron Webb. But right now the biggest irk for me is the apparent injustice I mentioned above. I say 'apparent' because I anticipate that someone, somewhere will soon come up with a way to justify it.

I know, there are many contributors who patiently insist that 'to have faith, all you need to do is stop doubting.' As if doubting requires a stubborn 'suspension of rationality' whereas believing doesn't. Needless to say, for me it's the other way around. But of course that's exactly how this magic seal thingy would distort my grasp of reality, isn't it?

Would you beseech a visually-impaired person to 'just open their eyes'?

Well maybe you would, but you probably wouldn't be puzzled when they keep on bumping into things.

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 13 March 2013 at 9:12am
"What is this something else?"

Muhammad was served, demanded to be served.
The Disciples of Jesus were (and are) led to serve, not to be served.
Jesus was the servant.  It was He who washed the feet of His disciples.

Salaam.
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 17 March 2013 at 7:01pm
Why would I trust any religion that tells me that I am not allowed to ask questions?

I thought of this today as I was listening to a discussion about Mormonism.
The God I know has no reason to fear my questioning.  In fact in the Bible there is one, when speaking with Jesus, who cries to Him; "Lord I believe, help my unbelief."  

24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

and Jesus cast the demon out of the child.

I have experienced this same emotion many times, and I simply have a conversation with my Father in heaven about it, knowing that in time He will reveal Himself to me.

I know that my Creator understands that I will have times of doubt and questioning.  I have never been told not to question.  In fact my scriptures tell me to seek.

1 John 4:1  Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Thess 5:21  Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Isa 1:18  Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD.

Acts 17:11   Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

and,
2 Timothy 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Edited by Caringheart - 17 March 2013 at 7:05pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2013 at 3:41pm
Why would I believe a religion that teaches:
-God came on earth, was born, had his butt cleaned, who suckled a human mother.
-That this man god, was actually son of God who was with God before (God never mentioned He has anyone with him as God in the OT).
-That then this man god is killed by some people. No, actually he dies, so that with his blood he can pay for the sins of all the world (that's what it says in the Gospel).
-that after he (god) (some say son of god)died and paid for them, then his body disappeared, he was taken back to God, wait but they say he WAS God? So He went to Himself?

While in my mind, I cannot believe in any of the above.
Sorry, but I only know to be straight and this is what it comes down to.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 26 March 2013 at 3:43pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote nospam001 Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2013 at 11:49pm

Originally posted by honeto


Why would I believe a religion that teaches:
-God came on earth, was born, had his butt cleaned, who suckled a human mother.
-That this man god, was actually son of God who was with God before (God never mentioned He has anyone with him as God in the OT).
-That then this man god is killed by some people. No, actually he dies, so that with his blood he can pay for the sins of all the world (that's what it says in the Gospel).
-that after he (god) (some say son of god)died and paid for them, then his body disappeared, he was taken back to God, wait but they say he WAS God? So He went to Himself?

While in my mind, I cannot believe in any of the above.
Sorry, but I only know to be straight and this is what it comes down to.
Hasan

Q: Who has the greatest Faith of all?
A: The one whose dogma makes the least sense. Otherwise, what's being tested?

And the winner is......(drum roll)......

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 28 March 2013 at 1:32pm
Hi Hasan,

Quote: While in my mind, I cannot believe in any of the above.
Sorry, but I only know to be straight and this is what it comes down to.
Hasan

--- You mean you don't believe in Jesus. I thought we discussed it enough so you would get away from believing that Jesus was God.

However this is what Jesus said about being 'straight' in Surah 3:
50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

And it goes on to say in this verse:
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

--- (All the language you use against Jesus is recorded in heaven, is it not?)



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