Welcom back Nausheen,

"So please forgive my jabber, and give me a listening ear."    I completely understand.  I am the same. 

Regarding what you wrote, here is my 'jabber'(my thoughts, my somewhat disjointed thoughts). 

"This is an experience, a feeling if you will. You have said Islam cannot be understood till one enters it. Its not the knowledge of Islam that cannot be understood, as its open for all to master, however the experience cannot be reached through intellects. "

I agree
"as little children" (spoken by Jesus, recorded in Matthew 18)
this is how we must come to Him
but little children do not be led astray...
trusting in blind faith to one who may be leading you towards the edge of a cliff.

Originally posted by Caringheart

David's illicit relationship with Bathsheba was not a sin? Having her husband killed was not a sin?
Noah when he got drunk and had relations with his daughters... this was not a human sin?
Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land because God considered that he had sinned against Him.
Jacob did not sin when he deceived his father into givng him his brothers inheritance?
Solomon was absolutely guilty of sin in God's eyes as he took wives who led him away from God and back into idol worship.

"Godforbid, we do not believe in any of this. "

Are you saying you don't believe these things... or God help us if we do not believe that they were sins?
There really is no question that Solomon took wives who led him and his people back into idol worship.
There is no question that Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land.
There is no question about Jacob stealing his brother's blessing.

"I wonder why you did not point at the divide between jews and christians in this verse. "

I am confused by this question.  It is there[the divide].  In fact, it is what I was addressing.

"So if I am serving God for the love of Muhammad (pbuh), will I be received paradise? "

Depends on who allah is, and where he is leading you.  It depends on what will be seen at the end of times when Truth is revealed.  I believe God will save pure hearts, those who believed they were serving Him, as long as they see the Truth in the end.  This is the reason for granting the tribulation period.


You believe you have to earn God's love.  I believe I already have God's love.  What I do, for love of Him, is to seek to purify my spirit(my soul, my heart.. we must be pure in heart because we will never be pure in flesh) and nothing not purified can be received in the presence of God.   I do believe God is merciful, forgiving, loving... that He judges the heart... the heart is revealed in the deeds.  God looks for love... love of Himself revealed in love for one another... "for it is in these two commandments that all the others are fulfilled." (spoken by Jesus, recorded in Matthew 22)
We don't 'achieve' the love of God, He already loves us, He created us... we show God our love... our pure hearts, by loving the creation He made... all of it... people, creatures, earth and universe.

"If love of status, prestige, power, material world resides in the heart, then one will miss the exclusive love of God. "

I agree... one can not serve God and mammon(Jesus said this, recorded in Matthew 6)... for love of one is enmity with the other(James 4:4).  But it is about us loving Him, not His love for us.  It means that we will miss seeing the truth of God's love for us, if we turn to the world instead.  We will miss the blessings that come with loving and serving Him.  It is not God who loses love for us, but us who lose the blessing of living in His love.

"The believers are those who are excessive in their love for Allah."

I can agree with this also.  I am a believer.  I am exceeding in my love for God.  I trust His will in all things.  "Trust in the Lord with all you heart and lean not on your own understanding"(Proverbs 3) is a scripture I live by.

"love that which He loves and reject what He has rejected."

This is comparable to the scripture that is in the Bible and one that also applies to myself. 
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

However we seem to have a different understanding of its meaning.  While I do hate that which is evil, I do not condemn, rather I try to extend the truth in love to draw others away from evil.  God instructs me to love.  It is only for Him to condemn.  I believe we are meant to save one another from the pit through loving one another.  I love all God's laws because I see the good of them, but can I condemn a man who is blind because he does not see, or should I take him by the hand and lead him so that he does not fall?  If he then chooses not to take my hand and chooses to stumble and fall, that is his journey to take.  After enough stumbling and enough falls he may be willing to reach for the hand of God... the hand being offered to him by one who knows the love of God.

Paul goes on to say;

10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

16 Be of the same mind one toward another[i.e.,love one another]. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
(I believe there is a scripture in the quran similar to this.)

This is a continuation of the teaching of Amos;

14 Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the Lord, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.
15 Hate the evil, and love the good...

and the Psalm of David #97

10 Ye that love the Lord, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
11 Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.

Peace and blessings to you,
Caringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 15 January 2013 at 11:28am

Hi Nausheen

I don't see why the job of rebutting my recent posts should fall to you alone. You have a whole bunch of other interesting topics to attend to, plus no doubt a life outside of this forum.

Incidentally, you've always come across as one of the most patient and articulate of the Muslim contributors on this site and so are one of the reasons I haven't given up and gone elsewhere.

To be fair, Abu Loren deserves a mention as well. Where else can someone like me find a person with his views who is willing to express them in public?

TG, you are very honest to say the least.
I saw your statements in the other thread on General Discussions as well. It looks like you are stuck.

If you believe in Jesus pbuh as mentioned in the bible then you cannot believe in Muhammad pbuh. If you want to believe in Muhammad pbuh, then you will have to change your belief about Jesus pbuh – Since the two cannot make sense at the same time.

Your logic holds true both ways. If the crucification is true, then surely the Quran is wrong But by the same token, if the Quran is correct, then the Bible has got to be wrong.

I cannot conceive of God as a part of His creation, thus isa alaihe salam, who was clearly born to a mortal, and being raised to level of almighty confuse me.
Another thing I cannot accept is, God being perfectly just, how can he make someone else die for the sins of others in His creation. This is rather a very dangerous concept to me, because it spells out carelessness on other’s part – as if there is no accountability on anyone else, because Jesus alaihe salam has already received a punishment on behalf of everyone else.

What are your comments regarding the Christian king of Abysinia who accepted Islam upon hearing the verses of Surah Maryam (ch. 19)? [Presuming you know this event in the history of islam]
Also what do you think about the Christian Monk, an Uncle of Khadija (the mother of believers, may Allah be pleased with her), who prophecised about Muhammad, pbuh, being a prophet?

Thank you for your message. I enjoyed talking to you.

Interesting question. I presume the seal would still function as intended regardless of whether it is mentioned in scripture.