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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: What is this "something else"? Post Reply Post New Topic
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2013 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Something to add;

Jesus came to save the lost.

How do you define 'the lost'?   Only as someone who does not accept Muhammad?

See because I define the lost as one who does not know God.

There are many ways to know God, and there are many who know Him without knowing or accepting Muhammad.

I am sure that there are many who know Him without knowing Jesus.  Jesus is a way... He leads the lost.  If you are not lost do you need Jesus?  God knows which are lost and which know Him.  I beleive we are all given a knowing at birth, so some never get lost, others do and need a shepherd to lead them home.
 
"they that are whole, have no need of the physician, but they that are sick"  (the words of Jesus)


Hi Caringheart,

Thanks for your understanding, please forgive me for jumping in once more.

Jesus did not say He is a way, He said He is the way.

John 14:5-7

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will knowb]">[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”


Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are one God. You cannot know God without knowing Jesus. Jesus was God coming down in human form to teach us and live among us and give us His grace and His sacrifice.

A person cannot accept God while rejecting Him... there is no way to accept God while rejecting Jesus.

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nospam001
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Quote nospam001 Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2013 at 4:58pm
Getting back to Ghazzali's original question of "what is this 'something else'", the Qur'an provides a clear and coherent answer in the four verses I referred to above. Despite my unbelief I can still see the internal logic of that explanation, if we suppose such a God really exists. But it does make me wonder why we unbelievers are then singled out for the worst punishment, considering how deliberately we have been - and continue to be - handicapped. Am I the only one who finds this a bit unfair? Perhaps my question about fairness assumes a set of values that is not universal?
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2013 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by nospam001

Getting back to Ghazzali's original question of "what is this 'something else'", the Qur'an provides a clear and coherent answer in the four verses I referred to above. Despite my unbelief I can still see the internal logic of that explanation, if we suppose such a God really exists. But it does make me wonder why we unbelievers are then singled out for the worst punishment, considering how deliberately we have been - and continue to be - handicapped. Am I the only one who finds this a bit unfair? Perhaps my question about fairness assumes a set of values that is not universal?


You are not alone.  One of my biggest issues is with this notion of deception that is present in the quran.
My God is not a God of deception.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2013 at 11:04pm
Folks, am drowned in your responses.

Will try to catch up with all of you by the end of this week. As for now, its 4:00 pm Japan local time, and am off to too many things till satruday, so come back on sunday.

Peace!
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2013 at 4:21am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Folks, am drowned in your responses.

Will try to catch up with all of you by the end of this week. As for now, its 4:00 pm Japan local time, and am off to too many things till satruday, so come back on sunday.

Peace!


Nausheen!!!! NO!!!!

You must respond.... NOW... if you DON'T... I will judge you and Islam and all Muslims in the world by the fact that you didn't drop everything you were doing, ignore any life you may have offline, forget friends and family... and IMMEDIATELY rush to respond to my brilliant and excellent arguments!!!

Just kidding of course. Take your time. Look forward to reading your thoughts and responses when you get around to posting.

Salaam wa Allahma3k. Smile
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nospam001
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Quote nospam001 Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2013 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

You are not alone. One of my biggest issues is with this notion of deception that is present in the quran.
My God is not a God of deception.
Hi Caringheart

Those same revelations may be missing from the Bible, but doesn't your God also deceive, by continuing to choose plausible deniability at every turn, thus avoiding any direct worldly intervention that might blow His cover? Perhaps, even, actively tampering with empirical observations wherever necessary to sustain the illusion?

No doubt the deception is all done for a worthy cause, such as testing the Faithful, or ensuring an ample supply of non-believers to 'make an example of'. But the same could also be said of 2:7, 6:25, 17:97 and 18:57.

I'm not so bothered about the deception part. It's actually quite ingenious, the more I think about it.

What really irks me is the apparent injustice of being condemned to eternal hellfire just for my inability to remove a seal that Allah() placed on my heart expressly for the purpose of ensuring that I will never believe.
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by nospam001


Those same revelations may be missing from the Bible, but doesn't your God also deceive, by continuing to choose plausible deniability at every turn, thus avoiding any direct worldly intervention that might blow His cover? Perhaps, even, actively tampering with empirical observations wherever necessary to sustain the illusion?

No doubt the deception is all done for a worthy cause, such as testing the Faithful, or ensuring an ample supply of non-believers to 'make an example of'. But the same could also be said of 2:7, 6:25, 17:97 and 18:57.

I'm not so bothered about the deception part. It's actually quite ingenious, the more I think about it.

What really irks me is the apparent injustice of being condemned to eternal hellfire just for my inability to remove a seal that Allah() placed on my heart expressly for the purpose of ensuring that I will never believe.


I'm a big Star Trek fan and whenever I think of God I am put in mind of the prime directive.
That we are meant to work things out for ourselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mH-L6UCCAE
Smile
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 12 January 2013 at 2:22am
In The Name Of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Originally posted by nospam001

No doubt the deception is all done for a worthy cause, such as testing the Faithful, or ensuring an ample supply of non-believers to 'make an example of'. But the same could also be said of 2:7, 6:25, 17:97 and 18:57.

I'm not so bothered about the deception part. It's actually quite ingenious, the more I think about it.

What really irks me is the apparent injustice of being condemned to eternal hellfire just for my inability to remove a seal that Allah() placed on my heart expressly for the purpose of ensuring that I will never believe.

Hi nospam001,

The way I look at this is, the further you deviate from the righteous path, the further you are from it, the harder it is to return to it. And it is a reminder and a warning to the believers not to disbelieve. And Allah knows best.

If we contemplate, look around us and ask questions, and not distract ourselves in unworthily things, then we have made steps towards the truth. If we are sincere then there is no doubt that our Creator will answer to us and give us the truth. For you to be contemplating those versus indicates that you are seeking.

You have been given free will and if you choose to take the wrong path i.e. disbelieve then that is an individual's choice. Allah has given sign after sign after sign:
"And He has subjected for you the night and day and the sun and moon, and the stars are subjected by His command. Indeed in that are signs for a people who reason." (16:12)

He (the Almighty) also says:
"And if you should count the favor of Allah, you could not enumerate them. Indeed, mankind is [generally] most unjust and ungrateful." (14:34)

Indeed those favors are all around us. I don't need to go far, I'm looking at my fingers move, the mechanics behind this is overwhelming. Looking at my nails, it's fascinating how they are hard and positioned right at the tip of each finger. etc etc etc… Was this all by chance? Surely this is the Fashioner of forms, the best Creator.

"Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah, the best of creators." (23:14)

And if these signs are willingly disregarded, Allah won't force you to believe. Just like a teacher trying to teach their student, but if this student refuses to learn, you can't force them, it isn't just.

It isn't "apparent injustice of being condemned to eternal hellfire" as you may think, as this surah in it self mentions:
"So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah. And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment." (9:3)

Also, Hadith Qudsi (*):

"Allah the Almighty said: I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed. (1) Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: "I am as My servant expects Me to be". The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty. It was related by al-Buhkari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn-Majah)."

http://sunnah.com/qudsi40/15

We need Allah, He doesn't need us and we need to surrender to Him and His will. If we do this, we are saved and there would be no seal on our hearts. But we have to make the choice ourselves. If we continue to disobey, then Allah will make it harder for us to seek the righteous path.

(*) Hadith Qudsi are the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) as revealed to him by the Almighty Allah. Hadith Qudsi (or Sacred Hadith) are so named because, unlike the majority of Hadith which are Prophetic Hadith, their authority (Sanad) is traced back not to the Prophet but to the Almighty.



Edited by Rational - 12 January 2013 at 4:15am
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