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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 12:25pm
CAringheart,
are you making a fail attempt to run away from what I asked/challenged you to prove. I have said that according to the evidence the Bible and Christians contradict on these three major issue, and many others:
1-God
2-Jesus
3-Salvation
Anytime, anywhere, I and others have provided all the proof and will provide again if asked. You have no ground to stand if you claim: God is not all powerful. And consists of a Trinity.
That Jesus is God, equal to God, and always existed as God. God fathered Jesus like a man fathers his child.
That Salvation comes from the blood shedding of Jesus as a ransom for the sins of all the world.
I hope you face the reality rather than distracting or ...
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Caringheart





<span lang="">

<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, mono">Promotion of pride(and unequality) in Islam

<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, mono">
</span>

<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, mono">3:110

<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, mono">

<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, mono">You are the best of peoples...

<font size="2" face="Courier New, Courier, mono">
and does not the following promote prejudice?
5:<a name="51">51<a name="51"></a> O ye who believe! <span>Take not the Jews
and the Christians for friends.</span>



 
Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala loves the believers and hates the unbelievers. Simple.
 
If you like, yes He hates the Jews and Christians for not following His Laws and Commands.
 
If you find that hard to accept then tough.


Well said Abu Loren.

It seems they have an issue with the Lord of the Quran ... and if that is the case, it cannot be helped.
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 6:39pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Caringheart

Promotion of pride(and unequality) in Islam
You are the best of peoples...
and does not the following promote prejudice?
5:Take not the Jews
and the Christians for friends.
Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala loves the believers and hates the unbelievers. Simple.
 
If you like, yes He hates the Jews and Christians for not following His Laws and Commands.
 
If you find that hard to accept then tough.


Well said Abu Loren.

It seems they have an issue with the Lord of the Quran ... and if that is the case, it cannot be helped.
 
Greetings Nausheen,
I am quite surprised at you having taken this response because I consider you to be more enlightened.  I thought you could see the point that you can not say that there are no Jews, and there are no Christians, that follow Gods laws and commands.  There are many who do, as there are many who do not... just as there are many who call themselves muslim who do, and many who do not.  To promote prejudice against 'Jews' or 'Christians' or 'muslims' is not something from my God.  To sort those who follow God's ways from those who do not is an entirely different matter.  I consider myself to follow in the way of God and I would challenge anyone to say that I am other than a child of God.
 
How would it be if I said that my god said, 'take no muslim as a friend because they are not followers of God', instead of considering how they conduct themselves in their lives as individuals?  Does God not look at the individual heart to judge for Himself?  Is He going to tell His children you can judge all peoples hearts because of what they call themselves and if they call themselves a Jew or a Christian they have a bad heart?  What if I were to say because you call yourself a muslim you have a bad heart?  Are there muslims with a bad heart?  I say yes, there certainly are.  Would you like to be judged on the basis of those?
 
Even among muslims themselves pride is a problem.  I have heard the complaints of asian muslims of how they are less accepted because they are not arab muslims.  Pride is not a thing of God... yet Islam promotes it.  These lines of the quran set people against one another simply by the group to which they belong.  It removes the person as individual.  Did Jesus say that all samaratans were bad or did he treat them equally with others as individuals?
 
Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 08 January 2013 at 6:51pm
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by Caringheart

and does not the following promote prejudice?
5:51 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends.

Allah (SWT) did not mean ALL Jews and Christians.

JEWISH / CHRISTIAN ALLIANCE IN ISLAM - SHEIKH IMRAN HOSEIN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eslpGkSpZU

"It should be clear that the Qur’an has prohibited Muslims from maintaining friendly ties with only that Judeo-Christian alliance and not with all Christians and all Jews."
http://www.imranhosein.org/articles/understanding-islam/73-neither-friends-nor-allies.html
 
Thanks Rational, for sharing that.
It didn't really help with the issue of the scriptures though.
 
God's Word is supposed to be for all time, for all people. The quran does not fulfill this.  The quran is not clear it continually needs reinterpretation... (the reason for Muhammad's 'abrogation')
(sorry about the bold, I am having issues with my computer.  It will not do as I say.Ermm)
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 08 January 2013 at 7:21pm
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nospam001
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Quote nospam001 Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala loves the believers and hates the unbelievers. Simple.
First He chooses to lead some of us astray, then He hates us ... for being so easily led astray.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2013 at 12:29am
Originally posted by nospam001


Originally posted by Abu Loren


Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala loves the believers and hates the unbelievers. Simple.
First He chooses to lead some of us astray, then He hates us ... for being so easily led astray.


Allah does not choose to lead anyone astray. People choose to go astray, and He chooses not to guide those who choose to go astray.

Children blame everything besides themselves when things go wrong. A sign of growing up and becoming mature is that one learns to take responsibility.
Mostly smart people know how to stand up for their choices.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2013 at 5:36am
Hello Caringheart,

I saw Abu Loren's comment only in the context of the first chapter of the Quran.

Technically speaking, the jews and christians of today have rejected faith ... they have rejected the last prophet of God.

Whatever interpretation the western world wants to give it ... be it prejudice, pride etc etc is their way of looking at it.
For me its simply that they have rejected truth - and we muslims are warned in the Quran again and again to not become like them in rejection. Because rejecting faith/truth is the greatest loss for the soul.

I dont have problems with anybody as a human being. But that does not mean I am going to accept or believe that their faith is correct. Im sorry to surprise you, but I do believe that the present day judaism and christianity is wrong - they have gone astray and thus incurred anger of God. I don't know how this translates as being proud. I just don't understand your interpretation.
Just because there are good human beings in every faith does not automatically means every faith is correct.

The quran warns us against every form of rejection of God and His system. Thus we believe in every messenger before Muhammad pbuh, and every book that was sent before HIm. But now that he pbuh is the final messenger, and quran is the final word, salvation through any other route is closed.


I don't know what it means to be a child of God. For me everyone is a creation of God and has the potential to search Him and an opportunity in this life to be guided by Him. Those who sincerely seek Him, do find him.

Definition of friendship is different for different people. It depends on context also. A colleague from work who I sometimes go for coffee with, I call her friend. But that is in a particular context. Im not going to share intimate details of my life with her, though I have compassion for her and would be there for her if she needs me.

Somebody who uses blasphemous words against my prophet, I cannot call such a person friend in any context, because this person does not share my sentiments - rather this person does not care about my sentiments.

So the question is in what context you are talking about friendship and which does that verse refer to - and it does not matter how the western world interprets those verses.

'Pride is not a thing of God... yet Islam promotes it.'

Quoting Hadith Qudsi: Greatness is My upper garment and pride is My lower garment - whosoever tries to compete Me in these two I shall destroy him and I do not care.

This is God speaking of Himself. This is how He warns against pride.
The closest relationship between man and God is that of a humble slave and a mighty Lord - in arabic we say of Ubudiya and Rububiya.
A slave is closest to his lord when he has his forehead on the ground and his heart totally humbled before Him.

Islam says that every disease of heart stems from 4
1. Ujub: self glory
2. Kibr: pride and arrogance
3. Riyaa: Ostentation
4. Hasad: Envy

'These lines of the quran set people against one another simply by the group to which they belong.'



I never saw these verses as a reason to 'go against' the non-muslims or puff myself up with pride as the chosen one. To me these are a warning to not fall in wrongs which caused others to lose the favor of their Lord most High.
You see, there are many people who want to believe that God is compassionate and merciful, but they forget or want to delete the information that God is wise, just, has a system of reward and punishment - sends blessings and tribulations, gives and witholds. We see God as One who has more than 99 different attributes. He is Loving and Kind, but He is also all powerful who can do whatever He wills, while we can do nothing accept what He allows thru His will.

Quran is full of warnings to those who wish to taste paradise. If anyone wants to sit there and feel small or get offended by those verses, then its their choice, for those who take heed is again their choice.

Quran has divided people according to faith and further divided them according to the level of faith. It says the hearafter is more excellent in ranks than this world ... ie depending on ones status in serving the Lord.

Quran also says its a guidance for those who believe in it and a means to go astray for those who reject it.




Edited by Nausheen - 09 January 2013 at 5:44am
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2013 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Nausheen

Hello Caringheart,

I saw Abu Loren's comment only in the context of the first chapter of the Quran.

Technically speaking, the jews and christians of today have rejected faith ... they have rejected the last prophet of God.

Whatever interpretation the western world wants to give it ... be it prejudice, pride etc etc is their way of looking at it.
For me its simply that they have rejected truth - and we muslims are warned in the Quran again and again to not become like them in rejection. Because rejecting faith/truth is the greatest loss for the soul.

I dont have problems with anybody as a human being. But that does not mean I am going to accept or believe that their faith is correct. Im sorry to surprise you, but I do believe that the present day judaism and christianity is wrong - they have gone astray and thus incurred anger of God. I don't know how this translates as being proud. I just don't understand your interpretation.
Just because there are good human beings in every faith does not automatically means every faith is correct.

The quran warns us against every form of rejection of God and His system. Thus we believe in every messenger before Muhammad pbuh, and every book that was sent before HIm. But now that he pbuh is the final messenger, and quran is the final word, salvation through any other route is closed.

I don't know what it means to be a child of God. For me everyone is a creation of God and has the potential to search Him and an opportunity in this life to be guided by Him. Those who sincerely seek Him, do find him.

Definition of friendship is different for different people. It depends on context also. A colleague from work who I sometimes go for coffee with, I call her friend. But that is in a particular context. Im not going to share intimate details of my life with her, though I have compassion for her and would be there for her if she needs me.

Somebody who uses blasphemous words against my prophet, I cannot call such a person friend in any context, because this person does not share my sentiments - rather this person does not care about my sentiments.

So the question is in what context you are talking about friendship and which does that verse refer to - and it does not matter how the western world interprets those verses.

'Pride is not a thing of God... yet Islam promotes it.'

Quoting Hadith Qudsi: Greatness is My upper garment and pride is My lower garment - whosoever tries to compete Me in these two I shall destroy him and I do not care.

This is God speaking of Himself. This is how He warns against pride.
The closest relationship between man and God is that of a humble slave and a mighty Lord - in arabic we say of Ubudiya and Rububiya.
A slave is closest to his lord when he has his forehead on the ground and his heart totally humbled before Him.

Islam says that every disease of heart stems from 4
1. Ujub: self glory
2. Kibr: pride and arrogance
3. Riyaa: Ostentation
4. Hasad: Envy

'These lines of the quran set people against one another simply by the group to which they belong.'

I never saw these verses as a reason to 'go against' the non-muslims or puff myself up with pride as the chosen one. To me these are a warning to not fall in wrongs which caused others to lose the favor of their Lord most High.
You see, there are many people who want to believe that God is compassionate and merciful, but they forget or want to delete the information that God is wise, just, has a system of reward and punishment - sends blessings and tribulations, gives and witholds. We see God as One who has more than 99 different attributes. He is Loving and Kind, but He is also all powerful who can do whatever He wills, while we can do nothing accept what He allows thru His will.

Quran is full of warnings to those who wish to taste paradise. If anyone wants to sit there and feel small or get offended by those verses, then its their choice, for those who take heed is again their choice.

Quran has divided people according to faith and further divided them according to the level of faith. It says the hearafter is more excellent in ranks than this world ... ie depending on ones status in serving the Lord.

Quran also says its a guidance for those who believe in it and a means to go astray for those who reject it.
Greetings Nausheen,
 
I am going to challenge what you say.
"Technically speaking, the jews and christians of today have rejected faith"
This means you know as little about Judaism and Christianity, much as others like to accuse of knowng little about Islam and muslims.  You throw all into one category. 

 
"technically speaking"... Do you really think God is a 'technical' God?  If He was then tell me how did he accept David with all of his flaws, faults, and sins?

 
What about the Jews today who are practicing the faith as it was always meant to be?  There are those you know.

 
And what about the Christians who are faithfully practicing the faith the way it was always intended?  There are those also.

 
Do even these have the wrath of God?  I think not.

 
Are there muslims who have the wrath of God?  I think so.  Does this mean we discard all muslims?

 
This is the problem with the teaching of the pride and the prejudice.  There are those who would be proud who truly have the wrath of God, and there are those against whom you would be prejudiced whom truly have the love of God.

 
The quran does not have what the early faith taught.  The quran does not even know what the early faith taught.  But the followers of the early faith do know.  This is why the quran refers you to seek those who have the book... the first scriptures.
"though I have compassion for her and would be there for her if she needs me. "
Would you have compassion and be there for her if she was being persecuted, knowing that she is a good person, would you stand up for your friend?  and if not, is it real friendship?  and do you really serve a loving God?

 
"greater love has no man than this, than he lay down his life for a friend"

 
This is love God approves.

 
"because this person does not share my sentiments - rather this person does not care about my sentiments. "
Perhaps they do not share your sentiments but this does not preclude caring about your sentiments.  It is possible to have differing beliefs and still care about people.  It is possible to care about and respect another persons beliefs even if you do not share them.  At least where I come from and the way I am raised.
 
"and it does not matter how the western world interprets those verses."
In part you are correct... what matters is how they are practiced by the people who learn them... but also,
 here is the crux of the problem.  What if everyone were to say, 'it does not matter what YOU think'?  It always matters what others think.  If you take the attitude that it does not matter then understanding and peace can never be achieved.  We must care about how the other thinks or there will never be understanding... there will never be peace.  Who is it that wants continued misunderstanding and dissention among people?

 
ostentation... let's take a look at this...

 
The muslim way of dress could be considered a form of ostentation... a show or pretense of being better than everyone else... like the pharisees liked to parade or show themselves in their robes.

 
self glory - aren't the muslims taught to glorify themselves... that they are "the best of all peoples"?
 
 
"I never saw these verses as a reason to 'go against' the non-muslims or puff myself up with pride as the chosen one."
It is good that you personally do not feel this way (although I would advise you to take a deep and honest look to be sure)...

 
but this is why we must view each as an individual because while you may not have learned from your scriptures to think you are better than others, there are others who have learned this very lesson, and are likely not even aware that they hold these judgements within themselves.  Who is the great deceiver?  Whose very words in the garden of Eden led Eve astray by their cunning use?

 
I don't think other people feel small or offended by those verses, but it is offensive that those others are taught to think themselves better... that is offensive.  The very fact that you could make such a statement reveals the hidden prejudice that you do have... that you do think you are better... that it's 'not your fault' if 'others feel small' because of you.

 
True servers of God are humble, knowing that they too, like all others, "have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".  There are none who are "the best of peoples".  There are only people, individuals, judged in their hearts only by God Himself.

 
I am frankly surprised that my words made no impact on you.
"How would it be if I said that my god said, 'take no muslim as a friend because they are not followers of God', instead of considering how they conduct themselves in their lives as individuals?"

 
"To sort those who follow God's ways from those who do not is an entirely different matter." -- than what they call themselves by their faith or upbringing.
______________________________
 
I was just asking myself the question this morning;
 
 
Is there, honestly, any muslim who does not think he is better than everyone else?
Can you love a Jew or a Christian?
Let's compare this with what Jesus taught;
Jesus taught, 'every man is a sinner and if there is any that say otherwise, he is a liar'.
Jesus taught that no one is better than any other. He taught to embrace all in love.

 
It's not about who is better than another, at least it should not be... God created us all, and loves us all. Our Creator only wants what is best for us... He is our protector. His Word is to guide us in wisdom and to protect us... to teach us how to love ourselves, by loving the Father who gave us life, and to love one another.
 
 
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another...
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John)
 
 
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans)
 
 
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
 
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. (1 John 2)
 
 
We are all created by the Creator, and born of Adam... all brothers and sisters... all children of the Creator.
 
Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 09 January 2013 at 1:39pm
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