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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2012 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



Originally posted by honeto

Question 1.
God is One. Why do your concept of God in a Trinity contradicts to the Bible itself?

Question 2.
Jesus, you claim him to be God, why does the Bible clearly contradicts that?

Question 3.
Salvation you say is achieved through the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Why does that contradicts the Bible.

I am really interested to know the answers to the aboe questions, as you say you know what you believe.

Hasan

 
Greetings Hasan,
 
The answer to all 3 is, "It doesn't".
According to my understanding, according to my belief, my reading, my studying, and what God has revealed to me...
It does not.
 
As you know... as I keep saying... each person forms their own beliefs... each must form their own belief.  God reveals, what He reveals, to whom He wills. There is no way that all people will ever have identical belief, whether they are labeled Jewish, muslim, Christian, Hindu, buddhist, or even atheist.  Even within each of these groups their will always be differences of understanding.  Every person is an individual, with an individual mind given them by God, and their own individual relationship with God, and that is why only God can judge 'what is between Me and thee'. 
 
Salaam,
CH



Caringheart,
I am not talking about the different levels of understandings we have, which we do and I agree with that.
What I am talking about is more what our two eyes can see, what our mind can think and easily figure out: Like 2+2, or difference between a round shape vs a square. Separating red color from yellow and so on. Counting, reading and comprehension, simple as that.

So with the help of those basic abilities we all have been blessed with, it is very easy to come to some sensible conclusion. Some of us don't accept it and keep in a state of denial and some simply accept it as truthful outcome, a fruit of their labor.

The reason that I picked those three is that all our discussions revolve around those three basic issues.

1-God, you claim God is One but Jesus is son of God one of the three persons of God, who is equal to God.
The Bible contradicts all of that and some more. On top you claim that your belief comes from the Bible.
2- Jesus, you say is the only begotten son of God, who was first created, you say he is equal to God, and is God.
Again, the Bible contradicts your this claim as well.

3-you say that Jesus gave his live and died and paid ransom for your sins with his blood.
Again, the Bible contradicts that one as well.

Not, one, not two, but all three of the major claims that are foundation of your belief seem not to be inline with your trusted source, the Bible!

Now I see you mentioned you receive revelations? Do you base then your belief on the ones you receive and not the Bible?

Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 21 December 2012 at 7:51pm
Greetings Hasan,
You have completely ignored what I wrote.

"The Bible contradicts all of that and some more."
No it doesn't.  Not for me.  Not by my interpretation or understanding.  Maybe by someone else's interpretation though.  It's all a matter of interpretation.  The same with the quran.
The Bible does not contradict any of these things... only by the interpretation of some.
All that is revealed to me is from God and His Word... the Bible.
Have you read the Bible for yourself?  (All of it?)

Salaam,
CH
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Nausheen,I have read extensively from all sides, originally starting out to question the roots and practices of Christianity.  So I have been reading and viewing DVD's across many subjects that call up the history of Islam.  I have been studying the history of England, and the english empire, the moors in Spain, the crusades, the arab conquests, how the early church was formed(Catholicism), the Ottoman empire... goodness, it's too extensive to list all the places my journey has taken me in this study.Most of my reading has been online and I try to balance it with reading from many sources so as to get a balanced view.  I try to sort out the propaganda, but look for stories from both sides.  I try to look for stories written by people familiar with Islam, those having grown up with it, who can give a birdseye view of what goes on in those countries.  I have been trying to sort Islam the religion, from Islam the culture, and Islam the political.I did ask one time on the forum where I might go to read an unbiased history of Muhammad.  Do you have a suggestion?I had begun reading the hadiths but admit I have not gotten nearly as far with them as I would like.  I have found that it takes a lifetime to understand the religion that one was born into, let alone begin to understand the religion of others.  That's why I came to the forum for conversation.  I thought it would be easier to talk to people and wanted to get to know them.   Reading is not my strong suit.  It takes a great deal of time and energy that I do not have.  Though I keep plowing on because I have an insatiable desire for knowledge.  :-)Salaam,Caringheart




Greetings Caringheart,

Thank you for your careful response.
Please accept my apologies for having missed it until just now.

Looks like you have read a lot more than myself on the history of Islam. Im impressed.

Since you've asked for suggestions, I will take the liberty of directing you to two sources.

1. Had read this book a while ago : Muhammad: A biography of the Prophet by Karen Armstrong.
Did not know she was a muslim until a few months ago. Before writing here, I checked Amazon.com for her contribution - you might want to take a look at http://www.amazon.com/Karen-Armstrong/e/B000AQ72VE

2. Go to old forums on islamicity - can find the link thru the top right panel of this page, and search for discussions by 'Servetus'
He is a non-muslim who read extensively about islam - much thru discussions - and a great thing about him was that everyone amoungst us muslims loved him.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2012 at 7:40am
Originally posted by Nausheen

  Had read this book a while ago : Muhammad: A biography of the Prophet by Karen Armstrong.
Did not know she was a muslim until a few months ago.
 
I assume  you meant wasn't a Muslim until a few months ago, and, if so, what evidence now points to Karen Armstrong's conversion to Islam.
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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2012 at 7:44am
Originally posted by Caringheart

more of this 'something else'

I share my thoughts not as blasphemy but because it is asked, and because by sharing my views you may come to understand me, if that is what you seek, as I am also able to see and understand by your speaking, why you do not believe in Jesus.  And it is in understanding one another that we may find peace with one another.  Understanding is key.

My difficulties with Muhammad;
- Muhammad's message is a carnal message.  It appeals to the selfish nature promising fleshly things as reward.
so 1.)  It's carnal rather than spiritual in nature
     2.)  It appeals to serving of self, rather than selflessness
and, 3.)  for these reasons I don't trust where his word comes from.

God is Spirit, not flesh
God's kingdom is spirit, not flesh

'all scripture is useful for instruction' (2 Timothy)
The problem with Muhammad is that I don't trust where he got his scriptures from.

- You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are.
This to me is the same as brainwashing, instilling and constantly reinforcing a prejudice against people, and an inflated pride in self.
God would not teach pride, but the devil would certainly use this tool.
These are the problems I have with what Muhammad and his word teaches.
Salaam,
CH


Hi CaringHeart,

Are you claiming that during Muslim prayers they are taught to say how wonderful they are, and how terrible Christians and Jews are?

Can you provide any evidence of that?

I did some research, and I came across a brief summary of what is actually said, from a non-Muslim site so no one can complain it is biased towards Islam.

Please check it out.

This is not a defence of Muhammad. Although I believe he meant well and that he did have some things right about God, he was wrong about other things including denying His incarnation as His Son Jesus Christ, His death on the cross being the biggest ones, and the Quran although it does contain some truths, also contains things that are not correct.

However, having said this, it is not true that Muslims are taught to curse Christians and Jews as they pray.

There are some *****s who do claim that cursing Christians and Jews is "permissible", which is something I find quite low. We are called to pray for people's salvation and that God blesses them, even if they are our enemies.

http://www.islamqa.info/en/ref/36674/cursing

However, this is not a command from either the Quran or any hadith I am aware of. Saying that Muslims are told to curse non-Muslims during their prayers is like saying that Christians worship 3 gods. It is simply not true.

We need to be careful to be truthful and to make claims about what others believe only after we have done good research and made sure this is what they actually hold to.

 Otherwise we come across as bigots and liars, not as people who are representing the Lord and Saviour who came to the earth to live with us and die for us.

Jesus bless.Smile

Worshiping in Congregation

If there is more than one person praying in congregation, the people stand in rows, side by side, with shoulders and feet touching each other. In a mixed-gender group, the men form separate rows from the women to avoid distractions during the movements of prayer. Some mosques offer a separate balcony or room for women to pray so that they may have privacy during the prayer.

In a group of worshipers, an imam is chosen to lead the prayer. The imam recites the verses and words of prayer, and the people follow his movements. During the service, he stands facing away from the worshipers, toward the direction of Mecca.

Prayer Cycles

Each formal prayer is made up of cycles, called raka'at. Each one of the five prayers is assigned a number of cycles, anywhere from two to four raka'ats in length. For each cycle, the worshiper performs certain symbolic movements while reciting the words of prayer.

The following steps outline how a worshiper would perform a typical daily prayer. All words are given here in English translation, although the prayers are actually recited in Arabic:

  • While standing, raises his or her hands and says, “God is Great.”

  • Continues standing, with hands crossed over the chest.

  • Recites the first chapter of the Qur'an, and then any other small chapter or collection of verses. The choice of a particular chapter might vary according to a particular occasion or personal preference.

  • Repeats “God is Great,” then lowers into a bowing position, reciting words of praise to Allah.

  • Says, “Allah hears those who praise Him; Our Lord, You deserve our praise,” and rises to a standing position.

  • Repeats “God is Great,” then lowers into a position of prostration, forehead to the ground, reciting words of praise to Allah.

  • Repeats “God is Great,” then rises to a sitting position.

  • Repeats “God is Great,” then prostrates, again reciting words of praise to Allah.

  • Rises to a standing position again for another cycle of prayer.

When the prayers are performed in a congregation, the faithful follow the imam in prayer. They listen as he recites from the Qur'an and perform the movements after he does so. He makes all the necessary choices, such as deciding which verses from the Qur'an to recite in that particular prayer.

The first chapter of the Qur'an, which is repeated several times during each prayer, is called Al-Fatihah (the Opening Chapter). It is sometimes called the “Lord's Prayer” of Islam, due to its concise summing-up of the Islamic faith, offering praise and seeking guidance of God.

When two cycles of prayer are complete, the worshiper remains sitting for a moment. During this time, he or she recites the tashahhud, a short passage in which one praises God, asks for His blessings, and recites the declaration of faith (“There is no god worthy to be worshiped except Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”).

If the prayer is longer than two cycles, the worshiper stands up again to complete the rest of the cycles of prayer, and then sits down again. After repeating the first tashahhud, the worshiper then recites the second tashahhud, a passage in which Muslims ask God to send blessings on the Prophet Muhammad and his family.

Throughout the prayer, Muslims are free to add personal supplications to seek God's forgiveness, guidance, and mercy. When finished, the worshiper does the salutation of peace (tasleem) by turning to the right and proclaiming (in Arabic), “Peace and God's mercy be with you.” Then he or she turns to the left and repeats the salutation, formally concluding the prayer service.


http://www.netplaces.com/understanding-islam/islamic-prayer/performing-the-prayers.htm




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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2012 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by abuayisha


I assume  you meant wasn't a Muslim until a few months ago, and, if so, what evidence now points to Karen Armstrong's conversion to Islam.



I saw her on Ramadan 2012 webcast of Celebrate Mercy. They said she was a muslim - which was a surprise because I always thought she was not.

I checked right now for any web information about her but no luck.

If you know anything about her post Ramadan 2012, please let me know.

Jazak Allahu khair.

Edited by Nausheen - 25 December 2012 at 10:09pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2012 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...
Originally posted by Caringheart


such as that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how "terrible Jews and Christians are"
I did not say this.  This may just be a communication problem that you and I have.  Show me where I said this.  This appears to be you twisting my words which may not be your intent at all, but merely the way you understand me.In other words... 'what my words mean to you'. You are very quick to make judgements about others and to put negative labels on them without trying to reach understanding.
You are either a fool, a liar or have a short memory...or maybe all three!What do you think we have been talking about all this time?!  This is what you wrote on 12/8:"You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims> are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are."It seems to me like you are a fool and a liar with a very short memory.  You make st**id accusations and then try to back out later when you are cornered.  There can be no "understanding" with a person like you.  That would be like a Jewish person trying to "reach understanding" with a member of the KKK!



Im not sure about the policies of moderation anymore - however, personally it is extremely objectionable that someone is being called a 'fool' a 'liar' and 's***id'

If I was still moderating, would have had serious issues with you !!
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2012 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


more of this 'something else'I share my thoughts not as blasphemy but because it is asked, and because by sharing my views you may come to understand me, if that is what you seek, as I am also able to see and understand by your speaking, why you do not believe in Jesus.  And it is in understanding one another that we may find peace with one another.  Understanding is key.My difficulties with Muhammad;- Muhammad's message is a carnal message.  It appeals to the selfish nature promising fleshly things as reward.so 1.)  It's carnal rather than spiritual in nature     2.)  It appeals to serving of self, rather than selflessnessand, 3.)  for these reasons I don't trust where his word comes from.God is Spirit, not fleshGod's kingdom is spirit, not flesh'all scripture is useful for instruction' (2 Timothy)The problem with Muhammad is that I don't trust where he got his scriptures from.- You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are.This to me is the same as brainwashing, instilling and constantly reinforcing a prejudice against people, and an inflated pride in self.God would not teach pride, but the devil would certainly use this tool.These are the problems I have with what Muhammad and his word teaches.Salaam,CH




Had to dig thru this thread to find this post on very early pages.

The muslim prayer is as it has been posted by one of the participants above ...

We repeat in every cycle the first chapter of the Quran.

It consists of 7 verses.
First is the basmallah "in the name of the All merciful the Compassionate"
2-4 are praise to God.
in verse 5-7 we seek His guidance and favor.

Following is a translation by Sahih International:

In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

[All] praise is [due] to Allah , Lord of the worlds -

The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful,

Sovereign of the Day of Recompense.

It is You we worship and You we ask for help.

Guide us to the straight path -

The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.

You will be surprised to know that there have been volumes written as tafsir of these 7 verses. The easiest and convincing would be to pick one of those explanations and read for yourself what muslims say in their 5 daily prayers.

Would you please point to your source which says 'how terrible jews and christians are'? Thank you.

Edited by Nausheen - 25 December 2012 at 10:32pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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