IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: What is this "something else"?

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Caringheart

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Posted: 15 December 2012 at 6:28pm

such as that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how "terrible Jews and Christians are"

I did not say this. This may just be a communication problem that you and I have. Show me where I said this. This appears to be you twisting my words which may not be your intent at all, but merely the way you understand me.
In other words... 'what my words mean to you'.

You are very quick to make judgements about others and to put negative labels on them without trying to reach understanding.

Edited by Caringheart - 15 December 2012 at 6:32pm

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Caringheart

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Posted: 15 December 2012 at 6:36pm

Let me point out a difference to you.
Calling someone greedy is placing a label on them.
I am asking about written and recited prayers and scriptures. I am not putting labels on muslims. I am asking about their words. I have placed no judgement on the person.
I have shared what those words have been said to mean, by a muslim themselves, and I have asked if other muslims recognize this as a meaning that they convey? And can they see the problem?

Edited by Caringheart - 15 December 2012 at 6:43pm

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Caringheart

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Posted: 15 December 2012 at 6:53pm

"The point is that someone who acknowledges that her scripture contains racist and prejudiced undertones is in no moral position to point her finger at others."

So it's ok to point the finger at others as long as you are too arrogant to be honest and acknowldge the same problems with your own?
The prayer that you pray 5 times a day promotes prejudice and pride... you just can't see it, or just won't admit it.

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Caringheart

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Posted: 15 December 2012 at 7:05pm

" instead of realizing that it could not have come from God"

So you have the mind of God? You see you place your mind, and your understanding, above God, making your own judgements.
Probably the only difference between me, and these other 'Christian' friends, is that I truly know what I believe and they likely had, or have, no footing in belief but are, or were, still searching. I would be interested in talking to your 'Christian' friends. The term Christian means nothing to me... any more than the term muslim.

Sorry about all the separate posts. I did not expect to have the time to get through your entire post, and so I answered in parts.

Salaam,
CH

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islamispeace
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Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:33pm

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

"Do you think that it is incumbent upon me to "disprove" this ridiculous claim? "

You have already told me that the prayers do not mean this to you...
(or have you?)
I make no claim, I only ask what they mean to you.
I have pointed out

"... getting to know each other, and try to seek if there is any basis for trust. You say what you say, but there is no proof in what you say either... only whether I believe I can trust or not.
... I am asking the questions, to learn... to see if trust can be had... to see what muslims say of themselves... what do they present to me... Do I see good fruit coming from the tree of Islam towards the rest of the world, or not? Or is the good fruit reserved only for other muslims. If the tree does not bear good fruit for the whole world, it is not a good tree.
I wish to know what muslims themselves actually believe their religion teaches, what it is that they believe they must adhere to. If I wanted to stereotype I would believe whatever I hear and not seek for myself. I would not bother to talk to muslims."

This is about building relationship, trust.
The point bunter and I have been making is that you do not reflect the nature that you say is the nature of the prophet and religion you follow. It is not about 'being insulted' as much as it is about what you reveal of yourself. You do not reveal a good spirit. Your actions and attitudes do not promote a spirit of peace... they do not encourage relationship or trust... they only reveal hostility.

Conversation is about building relationship, understanding... trust. It's about your belief, and my belief, and reaching for mutual understanding. Why is it so hard for you to have a civilized conversation with someone about faith?

Salaam,
CH

Frankly, I could care less if you feel that I don't "reveal a good spirit". Why would I care what an obvious bigot like you thinks? It is amply clear to me that you (I don't yet know that about Bunter) are not interested in "conversation" or "learning". Wrong thread, by the way.

Furthermore, someone who is interested in promoting a "spirit of peace" yet cannot denounce infanticide as pure evil is obviously a hypocrite. I am not accusing you of promoting infanticide but I am accusing you of hypocrisy for promoting "peace" on the one hand yet staying silent on the issue of biblical infanticide.

How can I have a "civilized conversation" with someone who can't denounce the savagery mentioned in the Bible and also makes flagrant accusations against Muslims without providing any proof? Are you kidding me?

Edited by islamispeace - 16 December 2012 at 12:52pm

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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islamispeace
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Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:37pm

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

such as that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how "terrible Jews and Christians are"

You are either a fool, a liar or have a short memory...or maybe all three!

What do you think we have been talking about all this time?! This is what you wrote on 12/8:

"You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are."

It seems to me like you are a fool and a liar with a very short memory. You make st**id accusations and then try to back out later when you are cornered.

There can be no "understanding" with a person like you. That would be like a Jewish person trying to "reach understanding" with a member of the KKK!

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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islamispeace
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Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:41pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Let me point out a difference to you.
Calling someone greedy is placing a label on them.
I am asking about written and recited prayers and scriptures. I am not putting labels on muslims. I am asking about their words. I have placed no judgement on the person.
I have shared what those words have been said to mean, by a muslim themselves, and I have asked if other muslims recognize this as a meaning that they convey? And can they see the problem?

So now you admit that you said that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how terrible Jews and Christians are? Going in circles again, are we?

Regardless of where or who you heard it from, you made an accusation that you assumed was true, without knowing if it was. That makes you a stereotypical bigot, and yes...I am labeling you! Wink

Moreover, I already showed you the "written and recited scriptures"! I showed you what Muslims say in the 5 daily prayers all over the world! Yet, you insisted that I did not "prove" anything.

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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islamispeace
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Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:45pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

"The point is that someone who acknowledges that her scripture contains racist and prejudiced undertones is in no moral position to point her finger at others."

Which one? I showed you many prayers. Which one are you talking about? Where is the "prejudice"?

It is laughable for a Christian who has problems with her own scripture to point the finger at Islamic scripture for allegedly promoting "prejudice" and then say that that is one of the reasons she rejects the latter. Isn't that what you said? Isn't that why you reject Islam? So, how can you accept the Bible on the one hand for its racism and yet reject Islam for promoting something you cannot even prove?

And again, as you so conveniently do all the time. you ignored the proof from the Quran and Sunnah which show that Islam completely rejects racism, whereas your Bible promotes it (as you admitted). For shame! Embarrassed

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Topic: What is this "something else"?
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Author	Message
Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1333	Posted: 15 December 2012 at 6:28pm
	such as that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how "terrible Jews and Christians are" I did not say this. This may just be a communication problem that you and I have. Show me where I said this. This appears to be you twisting my words which may not be your intent at all, but merely the way you understand me. In other words... 'what my words mean to you'. You are very quick to make judgements about others and to put negative labels on them without trying to reach understanding. Edited by Caringheart - 15 December 2012 at 6:32pm
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1333	Posted: 15 December 2012 at 6:36pm
	Let me point out a difference to you. Calling someone greedy is placing a label on them. I am asking about written and recited prayers and scriptures. I am not putting labels on muslims. I am asking about their words. I have placed no judgement on the person. I have shared what those words have been said to mean, by a muslim themselves, and I have asked if other muslims recognize this as a meaning that they convey? And can they see the problem? Edited by Caringheart - 15 December 2012 at 6:43pm
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1333	Posted: 15 December 2012 at 6:53pm
	"The point is that someone who acknowledges that her scripture contains racist and prejudiced undertones is in no moral position to point her finger at others." So it's ok to point the finger at others as long as you are too arrogant to be honest and acknowldge the same problems with your own? The prayer that you pray 5 times a day promotes prejudice and pride... you just can't see it, or just won't admit it.
	IP Logged

Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1333	Posted: 15 December 2012 at 7:05pm
	" instead of realizing that it could not have come from God" So you have the mind of God? You see you place your mind, and your understanding, above God, making your own judgements. Probably the only difference between me, and these other 'Christian' friends, is that I truly know what I believe and they likely had, or have, no footing in belief but are, or were, still searching. I would be interested in talking to your 'Christian' friends. The term Christian means nothing to me... any more than the term muslim. Sorry about all the separate posts. I did not expect to have the time to get through your entire post, and so I answered in parts. Salaam, CH
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:33pm
	In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful... *Originally posted by Caringheart* Greetings islamispeace, "Do you think that it is incumbent upon me to "disprove" this ridiculous claim? " You have already told me that the prayers do not mean this to you... (or have you?) I make no claim, I only ask what they mean to you. I have pointed out "... getting to know each other, and try to seek if there is any basis for trust. You say what you say, but there is no proof in what you say either... only whether I believe I can trust or not. ... I am asking the questions, to learn... to see if trust can be had... to see what muslims say of themselves... what do they present to me... Do I see good fruit coming from the tree of Islam towards the rest of the world, or not? Or is the good fruit reserved only for other muslims. If the tree does not bear good fruit for the whole world, it is not a good tree. I wish to know what muslims themselves actually believe their religion teaches, what it is that they believe they must adhere to. If I wanted to stereotype I would believe whatever I hear and not seek for myself. I would not bother to talk to muslims." This is about building relationship, trust. The point bunter and I have been making is that you do not reflect the nature that you say is the nature of the prophet and religion you follow. It is not about 'being insulted' as much as it is about what you reveal of yourself. You do not reveal a good spirit. Your actions and attitudes do not promote a spirit of peace... they do not encourage relationship or trust... they only reveal hostility. Conversation is about building relationship, understanding... trust. It's about your belief, and my belief, and reaching for mutual understanding. Why is it so hard for you to have a civilized conversation with someone about faith? Salaam, CH Frankly, I could care less if you feel that I don't "reveal a good spirit". Why would I care what an obvious bigot like you thinks? It is amply clear to me that you (I don't yet know that about Bunter) are not interested in "conversation" or "learning". Wrong thread, by the way. Furthermore, someone who is interested in promoting a "spirit of peace" yet cannot denounce infanticide as pure evil is obviously a hypocrite. I am not accusing you of promoting infanticide but I am accusing you of hypocrisy for promoting "peace" on the one hand yet staying silent on the issue of biblical infanticide. How can I have a "civilized conversation" with someone who can't denounce the savagery mentioned in the Bible and also makes flagrant accusations against Muslims without providing any proof? Are you kidding me? Edited by islamispeace - 16 December 2012 at 12:52pm
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:37pm
	In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful... *Originally posted by Caringheart* such as that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how "terrible Jews and Christians are" I did not say this. This may just be a communication problem that you and I have. Show me where I said this. This appears to be you twisting my words which may not be your intent at all, but merely the way you understand me. In other words... 'what my words mean to you'. You are very quick to make judgements about others and to put negative labels on them without trying to reach understanding. You are either a fool, a liar or have a short memory...or maybe all three! What do you think we have been talking about all this time?! This is what you wrote on 12/8: "You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are." It seems to me like you are a fool and a liar with a very short memory. You make st**id accusations and then try to back out later when you are cornered. There can be no "understanding" with a person like you. That would be like a Jewish person trying to "reach understanding" with a member of the KKK!
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
	IP Logged

islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:41pm
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* Let me point out a difference to you. Calling someone greedy is placing a label on them. I am asking about written and recited prayers and scriptures. I am not putting labels on muslims. I am asking about their words. I have placed no judgement on the person. I have shared what those words have been said to mean, by a muslim themselves, and I have asked if other muslims recognize this as a meaning that they convey? And can they see the problem? So now you admit that you said that Muslims pray 5 times a day to say how terrible Jews and Christians are? Going in circles again, are we? Regardless of where or who you heard it from, you made an accusation that you assumed was true, without knowing if it was. That makes you a stereotypical bigot, and yes...I am labeling you! Moreover, I already showed you the "written and recited scriptures"! I showed you what Muslims say in the 5 daily prayers all over the world! Yet, you insisted that I did not "prove" anything.
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
	IP Logged

islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:45pm
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* "The point is that someone who acknowledges that her scripture contains racist and prejudiced undertones is in no moral position to point her finger at others." So it's ok to point the finger at others as long as you are too arrogant to be honest and acknowldge the same problems with your own? The prayer that you pray 5 times a day promotes prejudice and pride... you just can't see it, or just won't admit it. Which one? I showed you many prayers. Which one are you talking about? Where is the "prejudice"? It is laughable for a Christian who has problems with her own scripture to point the finger at Islamic scripture for allegedly promoting "prejudice" and then say that that is one of the reasons she rejects the latter. Isn't that what you said? Isn't that why you reject Islam? So, how can you accept the Bible on the one hand for its racism and yet reject Islam for promoting something you cannot even prove? And again, as you so conveniently do all the time. you ignored the proof from the Quran and Sunnah which show that Islam completely rejects racism, whereas your Bible promotes it (as you admitted). For shame!
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
	IP Logged