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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: What is this "something else"? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2012 at 4:55pm
Greetings islamispeace,
"So Muslims pray five times a day to curse Jews and Christians!"
I didn't say that, but I think it is interesting that you did.
I simply said that having the same thing repeated over and over to oneself is a form of brainwashing, and that in this case it tends to instill and reinforce prejudice and pride.

I trust in the Bible because it promotes peace, unity, and acceptance of others... based on the new testament... the teaching of Jesus, the new covenant.
I do not trust the source of the quran because I see it as promoting disunity, prejudice, and unequal treatment.  I see it as promoting dissention among people rather than unity, making one believe that they are above others.

"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; Most Gracious, Most Merciful; Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray."
It all comes down to what this surah means in the muslim mind, does it not?

Thank you for sharing all the other prayers.  It helps to know the prayers which are recited.  I would like to hear from many, many, more.  Better still, I would like to be able to attend for myself.  I imagine it differs in many mosques, in many places, and countries.

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 09 December 2012 at 4:57pm
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2012 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


more of this 'something else'I share my thoughts not as blasphemy but because it is asked, and because by sharing my views you may come to understand me, if that is what you seek, as I am also able to see and understand by your speaking, why you do not believe in Jesus.  And it is in understanding one another that we may find peace with one another.  Understanding is key.My difficulties with Muhammad;- Muhammad's message is a carnal message.  It appeals to the selfish nature promising fleshly things as reward.so 1.)  It's carnal rather than spiritual in nature     2.)  It appeals to serving of self, rather than selflessnessand, 3.)  for these reasons I don't trust where his word comes from.God is Spirit, not fleshGod's kingdom is spirit, not flesh'all scripture is useful for instruction' (2 Timothy)The problem with Muhammad is that I don't trust where he got his scriptures from.- You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are.This to me is the same as brainwashing, instilling and constantly reinforcing a prejudice against people, and an inflated pride in self.God would not teach pride, but the devil would certainly use this tool.These are the problems I have with what Muhammad and his word teaches.Salaam,CH




CArinheart,
Like you have been asked, I will ask you again, where do you get your misinformation I mean information about Islam, where is your references to what your concluded?
It appears as if you got it all wrong, so I don't blame you for your conclusions only for your lack of knowledge and understandings of Islamic teachings.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 10 December 2012 at 2:15pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2012 at 4:26pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

"So Muslims pray five times a day to curse Jews and Christians!"
I didn't say that, but I think it is interesting that you did.
I simply said that having the same thing repeated over and over to oneself is a form of brainwashing, and that in this case it tends to instill and reinforce prejudice and pride.


Too late to go back on it now!  You claimed that:

"You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are."

You did not provide any evidence for this false statement, and it is obvious what you were saying.  There is no point in denying it. 

As I showed you, the prayer involves worshiping and glorifying Allah (swt).  That is the purpose of the prayer.  You know nothing about it and, as usual, try to insist on the truth of your own prejudices.  How ironic!  A shameless hypocrite accuses others of being "prejudiced" and yet doesn't admit her own prejudices!  Before you point your finger at others, maybe you should point it at yourself!

Speaking of "instilling prejudice and pride":

"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22)

"This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." (1 John 4:2-3)

"We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)

"If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work." (2 John 1:10-11)

Hypocrisy much, Caringheart?!

Originally posted by Caringheart

I trust in the Bible because it promotes peace, unity, and acceptance of others... based on the new testament... the teaching of Jesus, the new covenant.
I do not trust the source of the quran because I see it as promoting disunity, prejudice, and unequal treatment.  I see it as promoting dissention among people rather than unity, making one believe that they are above others.


Righhhht...Which Bible are you reading?  LOL

Originally posted by Caringheart

"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; Most Gracious, Most Merciful; Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray."
It all comes down to what this surah means in the muslim mind, does it not?


And I suppose you know what it "means in the Muslim mind", right?  Once again, you present no evidence for your blubbering nonsense, except whatever childish thought comes into your befuddled mind. 

Surah al-Fatihah is a timeless prayer, which glorifies the Lord of the Worlds.  It beseeches Him to guide us on the straight path and to protect us from being misguided.  This is clear to those with a clear mind.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Thank you for sharing all the other prayers.  It helps to know the prayers which are recited.  I would like to hear from many, many, more.  Better still, I would like to be able to attend for myself.  I imagine it differs in many mosques, in many places, and countries.
 

Wrong again!  The supplications I mentioned are said in the 5 daily prayers by Muslims all over the world!  Here are some videos for your enlightenment:

Fajr Prayer in Mecca - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsBZsvbUZow

Jumaah Prayer in Pakistan - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IUjt1W0QNQ

Taraweeh Prayers in Egypt - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgbCEv6JDJI

Jumaah Prayers in India - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbLP_JQi-ls

This is just a small sample.  Once again, your ignorance rears its ugly head.


Edited by islamispeace - 10 December 2012 at 4:42pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote nospam001 Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2012 at 6:17pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

As Mark Twain said:

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”

I agree. It's also worth considering some of the other things he said about religion.

God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2012 at 6:41pm
Greetings islamispeace,

You make me laugh.  I have not insisted on anything.
In fact... I quote an earlier reply to you...
you had said:
"you try to insist that you are right."
and I replied:
Actually I believe I told you that I was encouraged by what you say the verse in question means to you."
Saying,
"You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are."
as I did,
is not the same as what you said, in saying that muslims curse Jews and Christians.  I did not say that.  I said nothing about cursing.

The scriptures from the Bible that you share are about belief and unbelief.  They do not name groups of people to be singled out but rather they encourage one to look at the individual as to whether they believe or disbelieve in God.  The Biblical scriptures simply highlight that there are those who seek to belong to God and those who do not.  If you say that you interpret your scriptures in the same way, this is good.  This is encouraging.  Do you think this is true of all muslims, what this prayer says to them?

You also would agree, would you not, that whoever does not acknowledge Jesus and His teaching, is anti-Christ?
Would you not also acknowledge that the world is under the control of the evil one?

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 10 December 2012 at 6:46pm
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 11 December 2012 at 4:49pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Saying,
"You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are."
as I did,
is not the same as what you said, in saying that muslims curse Jews and Christians.  I did not say that.  I said nothing about cursing.


Perhaps in your confused mind.  I won't get into the detailed semantics, but saying "how terrible" someone else is, is essentially the same as "cursing" them.  I could have used some other word, like "defame", but they all mean the same thing.  Moreover, you still have yet to provide any proof for your claim.  That is typical of you.  You complain of "prejudice" and "stereotyping" yet that is exactly what you have been doing. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

The scriptures from the Bible that you share are about belief and unbelief.  They do not name groups of people to be singled out but rather they encourage one to look at the individual as to whether they believe or disbelieve in God.  The Biblical scriptures simply highlight that there are those who seek to belong to God and those who do not.
 

Special pleading, as expected.  The verses I showed clearly differentiate between Christians and...everyone else.  The "everyone" group also includes other Christians who were considered to be "heretics", but it includes all non-Christians in general.  It does not name any particular group because every group was considered as being wrong.  This also applies to individuals.   

However, as it turns out, there is a passage from the Gospel of Matthew which also names specific groups and determines that one is better than the other:

"Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” 25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread [the Jews] and toss it to the dogs [the Gentiles]. 27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment."(Matthew 15:21-28)

Talk about prejudice! 

Originally posted by Caringheart

If you say that you interpret your scriptures in the same way, this is good.  This is encouraging.  Do you think this is true of all muslims, what this prayer says to them?


Why not?  If you think it doesn't, then provide the proof. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

You also would agree, would you not, that whoever does not acknowledge Jesus and His teaching, is anti-Christ?
Would you not also acknowledge that the world is under the control of the evil one?


Of course, but I am not the one complaining about how Christians think about non-Christians.  I am simply pointing out your own hypocrisy in criticizing Muslims for believing that Jews and Christians are wrong, while defending Christian caricatures of non-Christians.  Get it?


Edited by islamispeace - 11 December 2012 at 4:55pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 11 December 2012 at 9:35pm
Greetings islamispeace,

I call it reinforcing a negative image.  Cursing would be outright saying 'damn them to hell'.  This is much more subliminal than that.  It plants a negative seed to be awakened later.

You seek proof.  Where am I to get this proof unless I myself become a muslim and join with Islam so that I can learn what is being taught... and then if I do not like what is being taught, I am already trapped.  Do you see the problem?  There is no way for proof.  Only getting to know each other, and try to seek if there is any basis for trust.  You say what you say, but there is no proof in what you say either... only whether I believe I can trust or not.
I am not stereotyping, I am asking the questions, to learn... to see if trust can be had... to see what muslims say of themselves... what do they present to me... Do I see good fruit coming from the tree of Islam towards the rest of the world, or not?  Or is the good fruit reserved only for other muslims.  If the tree does not bear good fruit for the whole world, it is not a good tree. 
I wish to know what muslims themselves actually believe their religion teaches, what it is that they believe they must adhere to.  If I wanted to stereotype I would believe whatever I hear and not seek for myself.  I would not bother to talk to muslims.

The passage that you quote from Matthew I have always had a problem with, from the first time I read it.  I do not understand this image of Jesus.


Regarding this;
where I said;
If you say that you interpret your scriptures in the same way, this is good.  This is encouraging.  Do you think this is true of all muslims, what this prayer says to them?
and you reply;
Why not?  If you think it doesn't, then provide the proof.  

I think the question for me comes from having read from a muslim themself, what they said it meant to them, and the fact that they said that all muslims know the underlying meaning and it is only non-muslims who are ignorant to its true meaning.
So how am I to know what to believe, unless I am a muslim myself?  And I do think it is not all muslims that 'understand this underlying meaning', but it is a subliminal implant of a negative nature into the mind of a muslim, just the same.

I don't know about other people, but I do not see the world as Christian and non-Christian. 
So I don't know if you mean me personally or not, but I do not defend
'Christian caricatures of non-Christians'
There are many who call themselves Christian who have no idea what it means to belong to God.  I don't view the world according to what people call themselves but according to what their actions say about themselves.  I believe that is what Jesus was teaching.  
'by the measure that you judge, ye shall be judged'
'remove the plank from your own eye rather than the splinter from another's'
'there are those who will cry Lord, Lord, and on that day I will say get away, I do not know you, for you never knew Me'

Jesus spoke against the pharisees who made all outward appearance and show of being 'good', but in their hearts was no good thing.
Jesus taught that the Truth of who one belongs to is revealed in the fruits of their lives... in how they treat one another... all people... even samaritans.
'When you gave to the least of these, it was then that you gave to me... and when you gave not, you gave not to me'
One who truly is led by Jesus and belongs to God, does not see the world as Christian and non-Christian, but as true followers and those who are either hypocrites, or are deceived... those whose 'ears are open to hear, and eyes to see', and those who are blind and do not see.
But we do not fault, or condemn, those who do not see, we pray for them, and speak to them, and try to help them to find the right way.  We do not build up in our mind a wall against them as though they will never find their way. 
We leave it for God to judge on judgement day.  Only God knows all Truth.
'for we see only as in a glass darkly, but then[when we meet our Maker] we will know in full'.

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 15 December 2012 at 10:54am
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 12 December 2012 at 3:40pm
"What makes you "trust" the Bible?"

Question asked by islamispeace.

I trust the Bible because it is so clear to see the truth... to see prophesy happening right before our very eyes, and how everything spoken of in the Bible has proven true.
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