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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: What is this "something else"? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 25 November 2012 at 4:32pm
Greetings Hasan,

I have no hatred or prejudice, only the conclusions I have reached from my studies, regarding Muhammad, his life, his teaching, and his leadership.  Some things about Muhammad I am still inconclusive on, but some things I am absolutely certain about.

and I believe you do know the truth about my posts, whether or not you want to acknowledge it.

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 26 November 2012 at 8:08pm
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 25 November 2012 at 6:51pm
Greetings CaringHeart,

may I ask what books/resources on Muhammad (peace be upon him) you have referred to for your said conclusions.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 26 November 2012 at 8:05pm
Greetings Nausheen,

I have read extensively from all sides, originally starting out to question the roots and practices of Christianity.  So I have been reading and viewing DVD's across many subjects that call up the history of Islam.  I have been studying the history of England, and the english empire, the moors in Spain, the crusades, the arab conquests, how the early church was formed(Catholicism), the Ottoman empire... goodness, it's too extensive to list all the places my journey has taken me in this study.

Most of my reading has been online and I try to balance it with reading from many sources so as to get a balanced view.  I try to sort out the propaganda, but look for stories from both sides.  I try to look for stories written by people familiar with Islam, those having grown up with it, who can give a birdseye view of what goes on in those countries.  I have been trying to sort Islam the religion, from Islam the culture, and Islam the political.

I did ask one time on the forum where I might go to read an unbiased history of Muhammad.  Do you have a suggestion?
I had begun reading the hadiths but admit I have not gotten nearly as far with them as I would like.  I have found that it takes a lifetime to understand the religion that one was born into, let alone begin to understand the religion of others.  That's why I came to the forum for conversation.  I thought it would be easier to talk to people and wanted to get to know them.   Reading is not my strong suit.  It takes a great deal of time and energy that I do not have.  Though I keep plowing on because I have an insatiable desire for knowledge.  :-)

Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 26 November 2012 at 8:07pm
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2012 at 2:05am
A few weeks ago Caringheart stated that s/he was reading Surah 3 of the Holy Qur'an and yet s/he has the audacity to comment on Islam and Muslims.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2012 at 10:23am
To continue from a few posts back:

--- It is interesting that Surah 2 is entitled ‘The Cow’ after the heifer in verse 71.
Quote: 2:72 Remember ye slew a man and fell into a dispute among yourselves as to the crime: But God was to bring forth what ye did hide.
73 is the mystery verse because it says --- “Strike (the body) with a piece of the (Heifer).” --- If the heifer refers to the heifer in verse 71, it is speaking about the OT sacrifice. --- So the mystery goes even deeper.

However, Maulana says this in his commentary on verse 73:
“The construction of the phrase, i˙rib∂-hu bi-ba‘˙i-ha, (Strike him with some of it) is rather difficult, but a comparison with 4:157 makes the meaning clear.
Oarb, as shown in 60a, conveys a number of significations. It means striking as well as likening.”
--- So, in his commentary, Maulana Muhammad Ali says the word used can mean, ‘striking,’ or ‘likening,’ --- or, ‘comparing,’ --- as Sher Ali renders it.

Sher Ali: ‘Then WE said, “Compare this incident with some other similar ones and you will discover the truth.” Thus does GOD give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.’

It was impossible to ‘strike the dead body’ of Jesus ‘with a piece of the heifer,’ but to make a ‘comparison’ or ‘apply the incident’ of the sacrifice of Jesus for sin, --- to the ashes of the heifer from Numbers 19, for the purification from sin, is possible.

--- As the Old Covenant required ‘the shedding of blood’ for the remission of sins, so, the choice of an unblemished heifer was burned with ‘cedar wood, hyssop, and scarlet,’ --- and the ashes were saved to sprinkle on the unclean person
If we ‘apply’ to the dead body, --- or ‘compare’ the dead body of Jesus to the sacrificed heifer (which was the perfect sacrifice of hundreds of years earlier for the Jewish people), --- we can see a parallel --- that Jesus was the perfect Sacrifice for sin, --- (as were the ashes of the heifer from the OT Covenant that God instructed, for the purification from sin).

--- The difference is that the dead body of Jesus was brought back to life, --- and therefore conquered death. --- And in this we ‘see His Sign,’ of ‘newness of life’ or ‘resurrection from the dead.’ --- And then, after Jesus was raised from the dead, God took Him up to Himself, --- as it says in 3:55.
(Jesus was resurrected, rather than the OT sacrifice for purification from sin, that, when the ashes were all used up, they had to be replaced by the ashes of another perfect heifer).

--- A footnote in the Pickthall translation: --- Maulana says that verses 72-73 refer to the Martyrdom of Jesus Christ.
Here I want to give some of the commentary on verses 72 and 73 by Maulana Muhammad Ali; from his website: http://www.muslim.or...quran/quran.htm

(Quote): When we compare the incidents narrated here in 2:63-71 with the same incidents as narrated in Surah 4:153–157, where, after enumerating almost all the incidents narrated here, --- (their disobedience, their breaking of the Covenant, and their breaking of the Sabbath), --- the Qur’an goes on to accuse the Jews in the following words: “And for their saying: We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah, and they killed him not, nor did they cause his death on the cross, but he was made to appear to them as such. And certainly those who differ therein are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge about it, but only follow a conjecture” (4:157).
The part quoted answers exactly to verses 72 and 73, only that the name is omitted. This comparison makes it clear that it is the apparent killing of Jesus that is referred to here.

The act of murder was not completed in the case of Jesus, as the Gospels show, for his legs were not broken, as in the case of the thieves. The meaning of the
sentence is therefore according to the signification of ˙arb that we adopt: strike him with partial death, or liken his condition to that of the partially dead man; and thus he was made to appear as a dead man, as stated in 4:157. There is no other case of a murder or an attempted murder in Jewish history of which the whole nation could be said to have been guilty, and which might answer to the description of these two verses.

(In his footnotes) --- He explained that the words صَلَبُوهُ مَا in Qur'an 4:157, do not negate Jesus' PBUH, being nailed to a cross; they only negate his having expired on the cross as a result of being nailed to it. He also explains that Prophet Jesus, PBUH, "died a natural death" as is plainly stated in Surah 5:
117 I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and thou art witness of all things. --- Shakir’s translation. --- End of quote.
(I will conclude this next)


Placid


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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2012 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

A few weeks ago Caringheart stated that s/he was reading Surah 3 of the Holy Qur'an and yet s/he has the audacity to comment on Islam and Muslims.
 
Greetings Abu Loren,
 
I do not understand why it is that you just like to pick fights with me.  Yes at some previous time I may have been reading surah 3... which would mean that I had read 89 out of 114 verses if it was after I had begun my deliberate sequential study.
I have read many other verses at many other times as well.  Whenever anyone has taken the time to share any verse with me I have taken the time to read it in full context.
... because I am truly interested in understanding what it is that Islam teaches, and what Mulims believe, and how Muslims can be counted on to treat me.
 
Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 28 November 2012 at 5:37pm
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2012 at 1:32pm
more of this 'something else'

I share my thoughts not as blasphemy but because it is asked, and because by sharing my views you may come to understand me, if that is what you seek, as I am also able to see and understand by your speaking, why you do not believe in Jesus.  And it is in understanding one another that we may find peace with one another.  Understanding is key.

My difficulties with Muhammad;
- Muhammad's message is a carnal message.  It appeals to the selfish nature promising fleshly things as reward.
so 1.)  It's carnal rather than spiritual in nature
     2.)  It appeals to serving of self, rather than selflessness
and, 3.)  for these reasons I don't trust where his word comes from.

God is Spirit, not flesh
God's kingdom is spirit, not flesh

'all scripture is useful for instruction' (2 Timothy)
The problem with Muhammad is that I don't trust where he got his scriptures from.

- You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are.
This to me is the same as brainwashing, instilling and constantly reinforcing a prejudice against people, and an inflated pride in self.
God would not teach pride, but the devil would certainly use this tool.
These are the problems I have with what Muhammad and his word teaches.
Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 08 December 2012 at 1:33pm
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2012 at 3:49pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

My difficulties with Muhammad;
- Muhammad's message is a carnal message.  It appeals to the selfish nature promising fleshly things as reward.
so 1.)  It's carnal rather than spiritual in nature
     2.)  It appeals to serving of self, rather than selflessness
and, 3.)  for these reasons I don't trust where his word comes from.

God is Spirit, not flesh
God's kingdom is spirit, not flesh

'all scripture is useful for instruction' (2 Timothy)


Oh boy...where to start in yet another ignorant rant from "Caringheart". 

1.  "It appeals to the selfish nature promising fleshly things as a reward" -

How is "promising fleshly things as a reward" an appeal "to the selfish nature"?  God rewards those who are righteous.  What is "righteousness"?  The Quran answers:

"It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing." (2:177)


Where is the "selfishness" here?  Are you just making things up, as usual?  Are you just basing your opinion on what the Quran "means" to you?

2.  "It's carnal rather than spiritual in nature" -

And why is it wrong to promise the righteous that they shall receive pleasures and joys in the afterlife?  Because you say so?  Indeed, the Quran promises many pleasures in Paradise, but it also promises them the greatest reward, which is the honor of seeing God:

"Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty);- Looking towards their Lord; And some faces, that Day, will be sad and dismal,In the thought that some back-breaking calamity was about to be inflicted on them;" (al-Qiyamah, 75:22-25)


"The Messenger (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “When the inhabitants of Paradise enter Paradise, Allah will say to them, ‘Do you want Me to give you anything more?’ They will reply, ‘Have You not made our faces bright? Have You not brought us into Paradise and moved us from Hell?’ Allah will then remove the Veil and they will feel that they have not been awarded anything dearer to them than looking at their Lord.”" (Sahih Muslim)


What was that you were saying about Muhammad's teaching being "carnal rather than spiritual in nature" (not that there is anything wrong with that). 

Speaking of carnal nature and promising fleshly things in reward:

"I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”" (Matthew 26:29)

"Barnes' Notes on the Bible" states regarding the phrase "when I drink it new with you" as follows:

"Not that he would partake with them of literal wine there, but in the thing represented by it. Wine was an important part of the feast of the Passover, and of all feasts. The kingdom of heaven is often represented under the image of a feast. It means that he will partake of joy with them in heaven; that they will share together the honors and happiness of the heavenly world." [1]

"And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:30)


Matthew 19:28 makes a similar promise, and "Barnes' Notes on the Bible" comments on that verse as follows:

"This is figurative. To sit on a throne denotes power and honor, and means here that they would be distinguished above others, and be more highly honored and rewarded." [2]

The Bible speaks of fleshly rewards in Paradise.  In light of this, for a Christian to complain about Islam's promise of Paradise is certainly ironic!

Originally posted by Caringheart

The problem with Muhammad is that I don't trust where he got his scriptures from.


But for some reason, you "trust" where the Bible came from.  What makes you "trust" the Bible?

Originally posted by Caringheart

- You are taught to say, 5 times a day, how wonderful you[muslims] are, and how terrible Jews and Christians are.
This to me is the same as brainwashing, instilling and constantly reinforcing a prejudice against people, and an inflated pride in self.
God would not teach pride, but the devil would certainly use this tool.
These are the problems I have with what Muhammad and his word teaches.


Wow!  So Muslims pray five times a day to curse Jews and Christians!  That's a new one to me! 

"Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds: No partner hath He: this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His will." (Al-Anaam, 6:162-163)


"For Him (alone) is prayer in Truth: any others that they call upon besides Him hear them no more than if they were to stretch forth their hands for water to reach their mouths but it reaches them not: for the prayer of those without Faith is nothing but (futile) wandering (in the mind)." (Ar-Rad, 13:14)


Here are among the supplications Muslims make during the prayer:

1.  Dua al-Istiftah - "Glory be to you, O Allah, and all praises are due unto you, and blessed is your name and high is your majesty and none is worthy of worship but you."

2.  Surah Al-Fatihah - "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; Most Gracious, Most Merciful; Master of the Day of Judgment. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray."

3.  "Allahu Akbar" - God is Great

4.   Supplication during Ruku - "Glory to my Lord the Exalted."

5Supplication when standing up after Ruku -  "Verily Allah listens to one who praises Him. Oh our Lord, all praises be to you."

6.  Supplication During Sajdah - "Oh Allah, glory be to you, the most High."

7Supplication In Between the Two Sajdahs - "Oh Allah, forgive me, and have mercy on me."

8.  Tashahud - "All compliments, all physical prayer, and all monitary worship are for Allah.  Peace be upon you, Oh Prophet, and Allah's mercy and blesings.  Peace be on us and on all righteous slaves of Allah.  I bear witness that no one is worthy of worship except Allah. And I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger."

9.  Durood Sharif - "Oh Allah, send grace and honour on Muhammad and On the family and true followers of Muhammad just as you sent Grace and Honour on Ibrahim and on the family and true followers of Ibrahim
Surely, you are praiseworthy, the Great.
Oh Allah, send your blessing on Muhammad and the true followers of Muhammad, just as you sent blessings on Ibrahim and his true followers. Surely, you are praiseworthy, the Great."

10. Supplication After Durood Sharif - "Oh Lord, make me and my children keep up prayers, Our Lord, accept our prayer, Our Lord, forgive me and my parents and all the Believers on the Day of Judgement."

11. Supplication at the End of the Prayer - "Peace be on you and the mercy of Allah."

Obviously, "Caringheart" has no idea how a Muslim prays.  As Mark Twain said:

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”


Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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