Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: What is this "something else"? Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 18 Next >>
Author Message
Ghazzali
 Islam
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 94
Quote Ghazzali Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2012 at 1:01pm
Okay, thanks for the atheist view. Still waiting for the Christian and Jew point of views.
The world is a dangerous place to live in, not because of the bad people, but because of the good people who does not do anything about it.
IP IP Logged
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2097
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2012 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by Ghazzali

Okay, thanks for the atheist view. Still waiting for the Christian and Jew point of views.


I gave mine but it was not allowed to post. (and it was nothing so terrible... just my view, which is after all what was asked for)

That something else...
the things you said,
He is not an example of what I believe can be held up as an example of a man of God.
and
Muhammad's religion's intent on sowing seeds of discord and prejudice...
of the dissemination of ideas (and the use of repeating them again and again) that subtly propagate prejudice in minds of men, using God as validation and obscuring the sight of man as to their true nature.


Edited by Caringheart - 16 November 2012 at 11:26pm
IP IP Logged
Salaam_Erin
Male Christian
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 30 October 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 41
Quote Salaam_Erin Replybullet Posted: 15 November 2012 at 7:34am
Muhammad's alleged behaviour points to him being only an example for 7th century Arabia.  But that's not the real issue.

The real issue comes down as far as Christians are concerned, to four things:

One: A denial of the need for blood atonement for sin. 

Two: A denial of the death of Jesus to achieve that blood atonement.

Three: The Qur'an thinks that Christianity teaches that God fathered a son by sexual means and had him as His partner, and that the Trinity is God, Mary and Jesus.  God is one of a Trinity.  I ask: Doesn't Allah the All-knowing know what Christianity actually teaches?
IP IP Logged
nospam001
Male Agnostic
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 October 2012
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 149
Quote nospam001 Replybullet Posted: 16 November 2012 at 12:12am

The Fourth, Luke, use the Fourth...!

IP IP Logged
Abu Loren
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1114
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 16 November 2012 at 2:27am
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Muhammad's alleged behaviour points to him being only an example for 7th century Arabia.  But that's not the real issue.
Why do you say that?


Three: The Qur'an thinks that Christianity teaches that God fathered a son by sexual means and had him as His partner, and that the Trinity is God, Mary and Jesus.  God is one of a Trinity.  I ask: Doesn't Allah the All-knowing know what Christianity actually teaches?
 
The Christian creed says "...begotten not made....".
IP IP Logged
Placid
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 November 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 231
Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 18 November 2012 at 4:36am
Hi Salaam,

Quote: The real issue comes down as far as Christians are concerned, to four things:
One: A denial of the need for blood atonement for sin.
Two: A denial of the death of Jesus to achieve that blood atonement.

Response: --- I hope I am not intruding, I am new here, --- but on checking some of the topics and not knowing what has been written before, --- (but knowing that a lot of topics are on the same subjects), --- I would like to join you.

When I started on an interfaith forum some time ago, I said I wanted to learn about Islam. --- And a Moderator said, “If you want to learn about Islam, read the Quran.” --- I had a copy of the Pickthall translation which contains much of the history in the opening Introduction, and has an intro to each Surah, --- so I have been studying it since.

Having high regard for Muhammad and the Quran, after reading it, I wanted to compare it to the former Scriptures which the Quran confirms in Surah 3:
3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was revealed before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

--- I have read that Muhammad said to his comrades, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.”
And I have been told by Muslims that anything that is not ‘confirmed’ in the Quran, is not accepted.
--- Therefore, it should be the best to study the Quran in relationship to the former Scriptures and see what they say. Because I don’t know Arabic, I have been comparing the different translations on Quranbrowser.com.

As you say in points 1 and 2, --- I know that many say that there is no blood sacrifices for atonement in the Quran, --- but there is something from the time of Moses that is very interesting.

It speaks of a series of offenses of the Jews for which God commanded Moses to have the people offer a certain type of blood sacrifice, in Surah 2:

63. And (remember, O Children of Israel) when We made a covenant with you and caused the mount to tower above you, (saying): Hold fast that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein, that ye may ward off (evil).
64. Then, even after that, ye turned away, and if it had not been for the grace of Allah and His mercy ye had been among the losers.
65. And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath,
66. And We made it an example to their own and to succeeding generations, and an admonition to the God-fearing.’

67. ‘And when Moses said unto his people: Lo! Allah commandeth you that ye sacrifice a cow, they said: Dost thou make game of us? He answered: Allah forbid that I should be among the foolish!
68. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith, Verily she is a cow neither with calf nor immature; (she is) between the two conditions; so do that which ye are commanded.
69. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us of what colour she is. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a yellow cow (some versions say, ‘fawn coloured,’ or ‘golden coloured’). Bright is her colour, gladdening beholders.
70. They said: Pray for us unto thy Lord that He make clear to us what (cow) she is. Lo! cows are much alike to us; and Lo! if Allah wills, we may be led aright.
71. (Moses) answered: Lo! He saith: Verily she is a cow unyoked; she plougheth not the soil nor watereth the tilth; whole and without mark. They said: Now thou bringest the truth. So they sacrificed her, though almost they did not.’

Yusuf Ali: He said: "He says: A heifer not trained to till the soil or water the fields; sound and without blemish." They said: "Now hast thou brought the truth." Then they offered her in sacrifice, but not with good-will.

(More to follow)


Placid

IP IP Logged
Placid
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 November 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 231
Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2012 at 11:59am
(To continue):

There was a comparable sacrifice of an unblemished heifer in Numbers 19 where they took a heifer that was neither a calf nor a mature cow, but the choice of the field. --- This was a special sacrifice where, after they killed the animal they burned it as ‘a whole burnt offering,’ along with cedar wood, hyssop and scarlet 19:6.

They then saved the ashes, and stored them in a dry place and used them for ‘purification from sin.’ ---If an Israelite was defiled by touching a dead body, a bone or a grave, or in any other way, then it says this in 19:
17 ‘And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel.
18 A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it on them.
   
In Surah 2:63-71, it was reminding the Jews at Madinah of the past when they broke the commandment and violated the Sabbath, as well as having made a golden calf to worship in verse 51.

--- And, If we go on in Surah 2 from the sacrifice of the heifer in verse 71, --- it says:
72 Remember ye slew a man and fell into a dispute among yourselves as to the crime: But God was to bring forth what ye did hide.
73 So We said: "Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer)." Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand.

A footnote in the Pickthall translation says that the Translator and Commentator, Maulana Muhammad Ali’s exposition of 72 and 73 is that this refers to the martyrdom of Jesus Christ.

--- The Jews ‘engineered’ the death of Jesus though they didn’t carry it out.
72 ---They first claimed they had killed the Messiah, then they denied it, --- but the truth was made known later.

73 is the mystery verse because this says --- “Strike (the body) with a piece of the (Heifer).” --- If the heifer refers to the heifer in verse 71, it is speaking about an OT sacrifice. --- So the mystery goes even deeper.

However, Maulana says this in his commentary on verse 73:
“The construction of the phrase, i˙rib∂-hu bi-ba‘˙i-ha, (Strike him with some of it) is rather difficult, but a comparison with 4:157 makes the meaning clear.
Oarb, as shown in 60a, conveys a number of significations. It means striking as well as likening.”
--- So, in his commentary, Maulana Muhammad Ali says the word used can mean, ‘striking,’ or ‘likening,’ --- or, ‘comparing,’ --- as Sher Ali renders it.

Sher Ali: ‘Then WE said, “Compare this incident with some other similar ones and you will discover the truth.” Thus does GOD give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.’

--- It was impossible to ‘strike the dead body’ of Jesus ‘with a piece of the heifer,’ that was reduced to ashes hundreds of years before, --- so it has to mean ‘make a comparison’ or ‘apply the incident’ of the sacrifice of Jesus for sin, --- to the ashes of the heifer from Numbers 19, for the purification from sin.


Placid

IP IP Logged
honeto
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 March 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2397
Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 25 November 2012 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Caringheart




Originally posted by Ghazzali

Okay, thanks for the atheist view. Still waiting for the Christian and Jew point of views.

I gave mine but it was not allowed to post. (and it was nothing so terrible... just my view, which is after all what was asked for)That something else...the things you said, He is not an example of what I believe can be held up as an example of a man of God.andMuhammad's religion's intent on sowing seeds of discord and prejudice...of the dissemination of ideas (and the use of repeating them again and again) that subtly propagate prejudice in minds of men, using God as validation and obscuring the sight of man as to their true nature.


Caringheart,
really, you have used that excuse many times, e-mailing privately with nearly nothing in them.
And your prejudice against prophet Mohammed(pbuh) is evident. If you are comparing or have an issue with Islam or the prophet, bring it up with your proof not just your hatred, just because you have a different product to sell.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 25 November 2012 at 3:32pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 18 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com