Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Prove that Paul or Muhammad had a Revelation. Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 10 Next >>
Author Message
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2389
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 14 December 2012 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


7.  Amos - 0 witnesses


But do not seek Bethel, Nor enter Gilgal, Nor pass over to Beersheba; For Gilgal shall surely go into captivity, And Bethel shall come to nothing.
—Amos 5:5

Bethel
(Luz, Beth-aven): Benin. Bethel "house of God" was a town about 10 miles N of Jerusalem, originally Luz (Gen 28:19). It was here that Abraham encamped (12:8; 13:3) in this beautiful pastureland. It received the name of Bethel, "house of God," because of Jacob's dream (28:10-22). Bethel was assigned to the Benjamites, but they did not possess it, and we find it taken by the children of Joseph (Judg 1:22-26). Apparently the Ark of the Covenant was brought here (Judg 20:26-28). It was one of the three places that Samuel chose in which to settle legal matters (1 Sam 7:16), and Jeroboam chose Bethel as one of the two places in which he set up golden calves (1 Kings 12:28-33). King Josiah removed all traces of idolatry and restored the true worship of Jehovah (2 Kings 23:15-20). Bethel was occupied by Jews returning from Babylon (Ezra 2:28 with Neh 11:31).

Around 1235 BC the city was destroyed in a great fire that left debris five feet thick in places. It is believed to be attributed to the Israelite conquest of Judg 1:22-25. The later Israelite level of occupation has construction strikingly inferior to Canaanite levels, but the period of David and Solomon shows noticeable recovery. No sanctuary dating to the days when Jeroboam I instituted calf worship there has yet been recovered. Although Bethel was only a small village during Nehemiah's day (5th cent BC), it became an important place during the Hellenistic period and grew even larger in Roman and Byzantine days. Remains in the area show that the city continued to exist throughout the Byzantine era but apparently disappeared when the Muslims took over Palestine.
________________________

Prophesy fulfilled.  There is no better witness than that.
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2256
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 12:44pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by islamispeace


7.  Amos - 0 witnesses


But do not seek Bethel, Nor enter Gilgal, Nor pass over to Beersheba; For Gilgal shall surely go into captivity, And Bethel shall come to nothing.
—Amos 5:5

Bethel
(Luz, Beth-aven): Benin. Bethel "house of God" was a town about 10 miles N of Jerusalem, originally Luz (Gen 28:19). It was here that Abraham encamped (12:8; 13:3) in this beautiful pastureland. It received the name of Bethel, "house of God," because of Jacob's dream (28:10-22). Bethel was assigned to the Benjamites, but they did not possess it, and we find it taken by the children of Joseph (Judg 1:22-26). Apparently the Ark of the Covenant was brought here (Judg 20:26-28). It was one of the three places that Samuel chose in which to settle legal matters (1 Sam 7:16), and Jeroboam chose Bethel as one of the two places in which he set up golden calves (1 Kings 12:28-33). King Josiah removed all traces of idolatry and restored the true worship of Jehovah (2 Kings 23:15-20). Bethel was occupied by Jews returning from Babylon (Ezra 2:28 with Neh 11:31).

Around 1235 BC the city was destroyed in a great fire that left debris five feet thick in places. It is believed to be attributed to the Israelite conquest of Judg 1:22-25. The later Israelite level of occupation has construction strikingly inferior to Canaanite levels, but the period of David and Solomon shows noticeable recovery. No sanctuary dating to the days when Jeroboam I instituted calf worship there has yet been recovered. Although Bethel was only a small village during Nehemiah's day (5th cent BC), it became an important place during the Hellenistic period and grew even larger in Roman and Byzantine days. Remains in the area show that the city continued to exist throughout the Byzantine era but apparently disappeared when the Muslims took over Palestine.
________________________

Prophesy fulfilled.  There is no better witness than that.


Ummm, if you had actually read my response to Kish, you would have seen that I was talking about people who witnessed the fist instance when Amos or the other prophets received their revelations.  This has to do with his unique interpretation of Deuteronomy 19:15.  So far, he has provided no evidence that any one witnessed the revelations coming to the prophets, yet he hypocritically asks the same of Muhammad (pbuh). 

By the way, we can discuss the prophecies of Muhammad (pbuh).  Here is just one example:

"Abu Dharr reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You would soon conquer Egypt and that is a land which is known (as the land of al-qirat). So when you conquer it, treat its inhabitants well. For there lies upon you the responsibility because of blood-tie or relationship of marriage (with them). And when you see two persons falling into dispute amongst themselves for the space of a brick, than get out of that. He (Abu Dharr) said: I saw Abd al-Rahman b. Shurahbil b. Hasana and his brother Rabi'a disputing with one another for the space of a brick. So I left that (land)."  (Sahih Muslim, Book #031, Hadith #6174)

Egypt was conquered by the Muslims under Amr ibn al-As in 641 CE, almost 10 years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) [1].  So, there you go!  In your own words:

"Prophesy fulfilled.  There is no better witness than that."
  

In any case, you response does not cite any authoritative source for the information you presented about Bethel.  You simply copied a source without providing a citation for the rest of us.  Of course, I know where you got it from.  A simple internet search yields the following link:

http://www.bible-history.com/geography/ancient-israel/bethel.html

You overlooked a key sentence in the above article:

"Bethel is identified with the modern Benin or Beitin. It stands upon the point of a low rocky ridge, between two shallow wadis which unite, the water then falls into the Wadi Suweinit toward the SE."

Moreover, Amos (pbuh) was warning the people of Bethel, who were worshiping idols, of their impending doom, not the destruction of Bethel thousands of years later.  As the Jewish website "Chabad.org" states:

"Stepping fearlessly into the midst of the celebrating crowds in Bethel, before the temple Jeroboam had built for the worship of the calves, Amos announced the terrible punishment G-d would bring upon the sinful people of Israel." [2]
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2389
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 15 December 2012 at 5:21pm
I actually do not remember the source.  I was researching Bethel to find out where in the world it was located after reading about it in the scriptures.  I was reading in Genesis.  I'm not sure how I came across the verse in Amos.  Anyway, that's how I happened upon the information.  Then I happened to be reading on this thread.

To me, 'ceased to exist' is the definition of
"will come to nothing"
and it was after the Byzantine era that Bethel truly did cease to exist.
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2256
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2012 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

I actually do not remember the source.  I was researching Bethel to find out where in the world it was located after reading about it in the scriptures.  I was reading in Genesis.  I'm not sure how I came across the verse in Amos.  Anyway, that's how I happened upon the information.  Then I happened to be reading on this thread.

To me, 'ceased to exist' is the definition of
"will come to nothing"
and it was after the Byzantine era that Bethel truly did cease to exist.


So again, it is your opinion and not what the text actually says that ultimately wins out in your mind.  What would be the purpose of Amos (pbuh) prophesying the destruction of Bethel thousands of years afterwards if the primary reason he was sent by God in the first place was to warn the Israelites because of their idol worship?  How would that serve as a warning to the Israelites.   

You also conveniently ignored the statement that Bethel is identified with the city of Beitin. 

It is absurd to claim that you can't remember what your source was!  I showed you the source because you cut and pasted directly from it, word for word!  Or was that just a remarkable coincidence?     
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2389
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 16 December 2012 at 2:02pm
Greetings islamispeace,

You're the one who keeps saying God gave us a mind to reason with.  Yes, I don't just mindlessly quote others, I process what I study.
So the text says something different to you?
What does 'will come to nothing' mean to you?

Bethel - Beitin... I didn't ignore it.  What difference does it make?  Different name, same place.

No, I'd say you did what I do when I am interested in the source of the things that other people post, or when I need clarification, or further definition, or further study... you copied part of the text I posted, pasted it into Google, and it turned up the source of the information.  So what?
I was simply saying that I did not go seeking the information for the purpose of posting on this thread.

By the way, this shows that you can do your own research when you want to. Wink


Edited by Caringheart - 16 December 2012 at 2:08pm
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2256
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2012 at 6:55pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

You're the one who keeps saying God gave us a mind to reason with.  Yes, I don't just mindlessly quote others, I process what I study.
So the text says something different to you?
What does 'will come to nothing' mean to you?

Bethel - Beitin... I didn't ignore it.  What difference does it make?  Different name, same place.

No, I'd say you did what I do when I am interested in the source of the things that other people post, or when I need clarification, or further definition, or further study... you copied part of the text I posted, pasted it into Google, and it turned up the source of the information.  So what?
I was simply saying that I did not go seeking the information for the purpose of posting on this thread.

By the way, this shows that you can do your own research when you want to. Wink


LOL It's funny how you try to downplay the fact that you were caught deceptively quoting a source and not giving all the information, not to mention that you cut and pasted it like so many plagiarists! 

I immediately recognized that you were cutting and pasting because I have seen it so often!  And when I checked on the source you copied, I found that you did not even give all the information (Bethel being identified with Beitin).  That is why so many people do not provide citations!  They know that if they did, they would caught covering up the full story!

You still have not offered a reasonable explanation as to why Amos (pbuh) would be sent to warn the Israelites of their impending doom only to prophecy the destruction of their city thousands of years after they would all be dead and turned to dust!



Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2389
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 17 December 2012 at 9:23pm
whatever...
IP IP Logged
Kish
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar

Joined: 07 July 2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 237
Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2012 at 12:40pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

Please provide the names of witnesses who corroborated the biblical prophets in their lifetimes.

Now names are not just good enough, you want to rewrite the LAW? Where is this NEW law of yours in the Torah where the “two witnesses” rule HAD to live during their lifetime, although some actually did although it was not a mandatory rule? WHERE?

Now islamispeace wants to add other stipulations to the LAW of Moses, interesting indeed when you’re grasping from the straw mans hat!

Just because “NO ONE” can confirm NONE of Muhammad’s revelation in the Quran, no need to get bent out of shape and disgusted and try to make NEW rules. That was the purpose of the LAW, so that imposters would be dealt with fairly and justly.

Again, by your admission . . .

Originally posted by islamispeace

According to your interpretation of Deut. 19, there have to be at least two human witnesses or one human witness who is willing to take an oath.

AND ALL THOSE NAMES AT LEAST TWO OR MORE WITNESSES CONFIRMED OR TESTIFIED THE MATTER AS TRUTH IN WHICH THESE PEOPLE SPOKE OR WENT THROUGH. YES, FIRMLY ESTABLISHED!

Ironically, even the Quran has established, confirmed and testified the individuals YOU listed that what they said and experience as TRUTH – THANKS!!

Where in the Quran or the Bible is that done for Muhammad.

What is a witness? A witness is someone who has, who claims to have, or is thought, by someone with authority to compel testimony, to have knowledge relevant to an event or other matter of interest. In law a witness is someone who, either voluntarily or under compulsion, provides testimonial evidence, either oral or written, of what he or she knows or claims to know about the matter before some official authorized to take such testimony.

In islamispeace mind he thinks a witness is one who has to SEE an event, NO! Look up the word my friend.

Again, where in the Quran or the Bible did someone testified, heard or even furnished evidence for Muhammad. ZERO! But those names YOU provided there is a testimony to each one of them in the Bible and even in your Quran, how about that! You nor I can say the say about Muhammad.

Originally posted by islamispeace

The main point to take away from all this is that all of these prophets were alone when God's word came to them.

No, the main points are the “two or more witness” rule that makes their statement credible. Other people confirmed or testified the event they experience as TRUTH!

I know this is a blow to you Islam but look up the word witness to get clarity.  

Your attempt to water down the LAW went down the drain. A witness did not always have to be present as YOU continue to insist but “TWO OR MORE” witnesses HAD to testify to the event for it to be credible.

Who! Who! Who! In the Quran established Muhammad’s revelations as credible, a matter of TRUTH, WHO or forever hold your peace?  

IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 10 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com