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Message Icon Topic: Prove that Paul or Muhammad had a Revelation. Post Reply Post New Topic
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2012 at 10:48am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Kish

Now names are not just good enough, you want to rewrite the LAW? Where is this NEW law of yours in the Torah where the “two witnesses” rule HAD to live during their lifetime, although some actually did although it was not a mandatory rule? WHERE?


Kish, you are getting desperate.  You are trying to interpret the Torah to fit your own agenda.  You are so desperate that you are not even making any sense anymore!  Think about it.  Deuteronomy 19:15 states that when when a person is accused of a crime, two witnesses must come forward to testify.  Obviously, if these "witnesses" were anonymous, then their testimony would be meaningless, right?  Imagine if in a court, a defense attorney attempted to give the testimony of an anonymous witness.  Do you think the jury would accept such a testimony?  Also, what would be the point of witnesses coming forward after the accused is already dead?!  Come to your senses, Kish.  LOL

Originally posted by Kish

Now islamispeace wants to add other stipulations to the LAW of Moses, interesting indeed when you’re grasping from the straw mans hat!

Just because “NO ONE” can confirm NONE of Muhammad’s revelation in the Quran, no need to get bent out of shape and disgusted and try to make NEW rules. That was the purpose of the LAW, so that imposters would be dealt with fairly and justly.

Again, by your admission . . .
    

More desperation.  I understand that you are confounded. 

Originally posted by Kish

AND ALL THOSE NAMES AT LEAST TWO OR MORE WITNESSES CONFIRMED OR TESTIFIED THE MATTER AS TRUTH IN WHICH THESE PEOPLE SPOKE OR WENT THROUGH. YES, FIRMLY ESTABLISHED!


Calm down, Kish.  Writing in all caps will not help your argument.  I don't even know what you are trying to say here. 

Originally posted by Kish

Ironically, even the Quran has established, confirmed and testified the individuals YOU listed that what they said and experience as TRUTH – THANKS!!

Where in the Quran or the Bible is that done for Muhammad.

What is a witness? A witness is someone who has, who claims to have, or is thought, by someone with authority to compel testimony, to have knowledge relevant to an event or other matter of interest. In law a witness is someone who, either voluntarily or under compulsion, provides testimonial evidence, either oral or written, of what he or she knows or claims to know about the matter before some official authorized to take such testimony.

In islamispeace mind he thinks a witness is one who has to SEE an event, NO! Look up the word my friend.

Again, where in the Quran or the Bible did someone testified, heard or even furnished evidence for Muhammad. ZERO! But those names YOU provided there is a testimony to each one of them in the Bible and even in your Quran, how about that! You nor I can say the say about Muhammad.


LOL Again, when Kish gets cornered, he changes his argument and asks for something else entirely!  He then provides a selective definition of the word "witness" (without providing a citation, of course).  Unfortunately for him, I know exactly where he got this definition from...Wikipedia.  Here is what the article says that Kish conveniently "forgot" to mention:

"A percipient witness or eyewitness is one who testifies what they perceived through his or her senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching). That perception might be either with the unaided human sense or with the aid of an instrument, e.g., microscope or stethoscope, or by other scientific means, e.g.,a chemical reagent which changes color in the presence of a particular substance.

A hearsay witness is one who testifies what someone else said or wrote. In most court proceedings there are many limitations on when hearsay evidence is admissible. Such limitations do not apply to grand jury investigations, many administrative proceedings, and may not apply to declarations used in support of an arrest or search warrant. Also some types of statements are not deemed to be hearsay and are not subject to such limitations.

An expert witness is one who allegedly has specialized knowledge relevant to the matter of interest, which knowledge purportedly helps to either make sense of other evidence, including other testimony, documentary evidence or physical evidence (e.g., a fingerprint). An expert witness may or may not also be a percipient witness, as in a doctor or may or may not have treated the victim of an accident or crime. [...]

Eyewitness testimony is generally presumed to be more reliable than circumstantial evidence. Studies have shown, however, that individual, separate witness testimony is often flawed, and parts of it can be meaningless." [1]

Of these "classes" of witnesses, the only one which would apply to the Biblical prophets would be the "percipient witness" or "eyewitness".  So far, Kish has failed miserably to provide any evidence of eyewitnesses to the Biblical prophets, even though he has been harping about the important of eyewitnesses according to the Torah!  Awkward...Embarrassed

Originally posted by Kish

No, the main points are the “two or more witness” rule that makes their statement credible. Other people confirmed or testified the event they experience as TRUTH!

I know this is a blow to you Islam but look up the word witness to get clarity.


It's hilarious how you make these passionate statements but provide absolutely no evidence to back them up!  Please do let us know the names of the people who "confirmed or testified the event they experience [sic]".  I have been waiting eagerly for you to answer this question.  Your silence is, of course, an answer in itself!  Thanks! Big%20smile\

Originally posted by Kish

Your attempt to water down the LAW went down the drain. A witness did not always have to be present as YOU continue to insist but “TWO OR MORE” witnesses HAD to testify to the event for it to be credible.

Who! Who! Who! In the Quran established Muhammad’s revelations as credible, a matter of TRUTH, WHO or forever hold your peace?

Still making up your own rules using nonsensical and childish logic?  Kish, my dear, please explain how two "witnesses" could testify to an event if they were not even there to experience it???  Confused 

I think it is safe to say from your gobbledygook that you would not make a good lawyer or judge! LOL



Edited by islamispeace - 22 December 2012 at 11:08am
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 23 December 2012 at 10:38pm

. . . and as always rather than present ANY witnesses to Muhammad be it a “hearsay witness” an “expert witness” an “eyewitness” or otherwise as defined by the word – Witness, Islam gives us NOTHING

Whereas any giving Prophet in the Old and Testament fits at least one or more of the criteria of what a witness to their testimony is.

So, here is your chance again. Can YOU provide proof of anyone in the Quran that falls under anyone of these witness categories to Muhammad’s revelations, at least ONE?

Originally posted by islamispeace

Kish, my dear, please explain how two "witnesses" could testify to an event if they were not even there to experience it???

Please forgive him he’s stuck on . . . . Islam read your OWN definition of what defines a witness in ANY dictionary.

I think it is safe to say when it comes to the Quran, Islam and it’s beliefs you could not testify in behalf of it or make a good WITNESS of any sort. How can you, according to your definition of it you were not there.



Edited by Kish - 23 December 2012 at 10:39pm
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 9:43am

Well, Islam had more than enough chances to present his case to bring forth “two or more witnesses” within the Quran and according to the LAW of Moses to establish Muhammad’s revelation as being an established historical fact and that he was indeed a messenger or a prophet of God.

Based on his own thorough research in what defines a witness, Muhammad failed in ALL respect. UNLIKE, Jeremiah, Jesus, Paul and ALL other writers of the Holy Scriptures (Old and New Testament) who had credible witnesses to testify, confirm and acknowledge their “inspired” written message Muhammad had NONE, ZERO, ZILCH!

Which means in his case the “two or more witness” rule was NOT applied and that Muhammad’s message was NOT a true inspired revelation but a false one.

When God said through Moses that no prophet should be accepted until his prophecy comes true, He was saying that there must be two witnesses.

What are the confirming witnesses that the words of the Qur'an which Muhammad spoke came from God? Why does every prophet in the Holy Scriptures have a confirming “witness” and in the Quran Muhammad does not have a confirming “witness”, that is the million dollar question. Why was Muhammad so secretive with his so call revelation?

When Muhammad walked into Mecca, or now walks into the mind of one who reads the Qur'an, and says that God spoke to him and told him about the day of judgment, how will the person hearing or reading know? Muhammad is only one witness.

When I have asked whether anyone other than Muhammad heard the Angel Gabriel, every person has answered that he was the only one.

REMEMBER, it was NOT Gabriel who identified himself, it was Muhammad who made this claim. If Muhammad as Muslims claim was greater than Moses and Jesus and these two Prophets fit every detail defined by the word WITNESS why does Muhammad fail in every aspect in the word, not having even ONE credible witness to confirm his revelation?

From Mt. Sinai God spoke to Moses and ALL the Children of Israel and they SAW his power.

During the life of Jesus there were three times that God spoke openly as a second witness. The first time was when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.

Obviously, John and those being baptized at the same time heard this voice. The second time occurred in the presence of his three disciples - Peter, James and John (two or more witnesses to confirm) He took them up on a high mountain where he was transfigured. His clothes became dazzling. Moses and Elijah, who had each been dead for more than 900 years, appeared to Jesus.

Although most prophets are not confirmed by a voice from heaven but many have, or by fire like in the case of Moses and Elijah, BUT no one, I mean NO ONE in the Quran can confirm ANY of Muhammad claims by even the definition of the word witness. If he was greater and if he was a prophet as Muslims like to claim what made him so great compared to the others? Where did he even come from and by whose authority?

Well, wherever he came from it really does not matter because according to the LAW of Moses it was not from God.

But, now we do see why the message of such Prophets as - Moses, Jeremiah, Jesus and Paul (primarily known as an apostle) directly contradicts the message of Muhammad, why I am not surprised.

Since this thread is really about Paul and Muhammad, read this closely and carefully:

Here is what one renowned commentary, Al-Qurtubi, says about Paul:

Ibn Ishaq stated that of the apostles and disciples that Jesus sent (to preach) there were Peter AND PAUL who went to Rome;

al-Qurtubi had no qualms in admitting that Paul was a legitimate follower of Christ!

Then there is this candid admission in reference to Q 3:54 and Q 61:14

The Quran teaches that Jesus was God's best prophet, and that Christians will be placed above non-believers until the Day of Judgment. (Dr. Nader Pourhassan, The Corruption of Moslem Minds [Barbed Wire Publishers, Las Cruces, New Mexico 2002], pp. 61-62)

The first time I read this verse [3:54] in the Quran, I could hardly believe my eyes. Even today, any Muslim I discuss this verse with is shocked. In the Quran, God tells all Muslims that the followers of Jesus will be exalted above the disbelievers until the Day of Resurrection. God's prediction that the Christians will succeed in doing so is even clearer in the following verse [author then cites 61:14] ..."

Most Muslims obtain their understanding of the Quran from the interpretations of their religious leaders. Few ever question what they are told to believe. But the book contains many messages that might shock them from their complacency.

The above verse says very simply that Christians will be above non-believers until the resurrection.



Edited by Kish - 24 December 2012 at 1:52pm
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 December 2012 at 1:55pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Kish

. . . and as always rather than present ANY witnesses to Muhammad be it a “hearsay witness” an “expert witness” an “eyewitness” or otherwise as defined by the word – Witness, Islam gives us NOTHING


LOL Oh Kish, how quickly you forget.  Don't you remember that I already referred to Bahira and Waraqah?  As Ibn Kathir related:

"When Muhammad was twelve years old, he accompanied his uncle Abu Talib on a mercantile journey to Syria, and they proceeded as far as Busra. The journey lasted for some months. It was at Busra that the Christian monk Bahira met Muhammad. He is related to have said to Abu Talib: 'Return with this boy and guard him against the hatred of the Jews, for a great career awaits your nephew." [...]

Khadijah said: "Rejoice, O dear husband and be cheerful. He is Whose hands stands Khadijah's life bears witness to the truth of this fact, that you will be the prophet to this people." Then she arose and went to her cousin Waraqa Ibn Naufal, who was old and blind and who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians, and is stated to have translated them into Arabic. When she told him of what she had heard, he cried out: "Holy! Holy! Verily, this is the Namus (The Holy Spirit) who came to Moses. He will be the prophet of his people. Tell him this and bid him to be brave at heart." When the two men met subsequently in the street, the blind old student of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures spoke of his faith and trust: "I swear by Him in Who hand Waraqa's life is, Allah has chosen you to be the prophet of this people. They will call you a liar, they will persecute you, they will banish you, and they will fight against you. Oh, that I could live to those days. I would fight for these." And he kissed him on the forehead."
[1]

I have met your challenge, as misguided as it is, given that the Bible completely disagrees with your interpretation.  Now I know that, in your usual style, you will shift gears and change your argument.  You will make excuses that Bahira and Waraqah do not count as witnesses to Muhammad's prophethood. 

Originally posted by Kish

Whereas any giving Prophet in the Old and Testament fits at least one or more of the criteria of what a witness to their testimony is.


Sure, sure.  You have yet to prove this baseless claim.  Who were the witnesses for Obadiah?  For Amos?  For Joel?  Why are you ignoring these questions?  What are you afraid of? 

Originally posted by Kish

So, here is your chance again. Can YOU provide proof of anyone in the Quran that falls under anyone of these witness categories to Muhammad’s revelations, at least ONE?


In addition to Bahira and Waraqah, we also have the Negus of Ethiopia as an example:

"And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses." (5:83)

It is well-known that his verse was revealed with regard to the Negus. 

See, Kish?  You asked for one example, but I gave you three!

Now if you could kindly provide the witnesses to the Biblical prophets I mentioned above, we can continue.

Originally posted by Kish

Please forgive him he’s stuck on . . . . Islam read your OWN definition of what defines a witness in ANY dictionary.

I think it is safe to say when it comes to the Quran, Islam and it’s beliefs you could not testify in behalf of it or make a good WITNESS of any sort. How can you, according to your definition of it you were not there.

Kish, Kish, Kish.  What are we going to do with you?  Did you not read what your own source stated about the different types of "witnesses"?

"A percipient witness or eyewitness is one who testifies what they perceived through his or her senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching). That perception might be either with the unaided human sense or with the aid of an instrument, e.g., microscope or stethoscope, or by other scientific means, e.g.,a chemical reagent which changes color in the presence of a particular substance.

A hearsay witness is one who testifies what someone else said or wrote. In most court proceedings there are many limitations on when hearsay evidence is admissible. Such limitations do not apply to grand jury investigations, many administrative proceedings, and may not apply to declarations used in support of an arrest or search warrant. Also some types of statements are not deemed to be hearsay and are not subject to such limitations.

An expert witness is one who allegedly has specialized knowledge relevant to the matter of interest, which knowledge purportedly helps to either make sense of other evidence, including other testimony, documentary evidence or physical evidence (e.g., a fingerprint). An expert witness may or may not also be a percipient witness, as in a doctor or may or may not have treated the victim of an accident or crime. [...]

Eyewitness testimony is generally presumed to be more reliable than circumstantial evidence. Studies have shown, however, that individual, separate witness testimony is often flawed, and parts of it can be meaningless."

So far, you have failed to provide "eyewitness testimony" for any of the Biblical prophets.  All you have provided are examples of "hearsay witnesses".  On the other hand, I have given you two examples of "eyewitnesses" to Muhammad's prophethood.  They are Bahira and Waraqah.  You have failed your own challenge and have unwittingly proven that Muhammad (pbuh) is a true prophet!  Thanks! 



Edited by islamispeace - 24 December 2012 at 1:57pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2012 at 1:57am
Originally posted by Kish

Well, Islam had more than enough chances to present his case to bring forth “two or more witnesses” within the Quran and according to the LAW of Moses to establish Muhammad’s revelation as being an established historical fact and that he was indeed a messenger or a prophet of God.

Based on his own thorough research in what defines a witness, Muhammad failed in ALL respect. UNLIKE, Jeremiah, Jesus, Paul and ALL other writers of the Holy Scriptures (Old and New Testament) who had credible witnesses to testify, confirm and acknowledge their “inspired” written message Muhammad had NONE, ZERO, ZILCH!

Which means in his case the “two or more witness” rule was NOT applied and that Muhammad’s message was NOT a true inspired revelation but a false one.

When God said through Moses that no prophet should be accepted until his prophecy comes true, He was saying that there must be two witnesses.

What are the confirming witnesses that the words of the Qur'an which Muhammad spoke came from God? Why does every prophet in the Holy Scriptures have a confirming “witness” and in the Quran Muhammad does not have a confirming “witness”, that is the million dollar question. Why was Muhammad so secretive with his so call revelation?

When Muhammad walked into Mecca, or now walks into the mind of one who reads the Qur'an, and says that God spoke to him and told him about the day of judgment, how will the person hearing or reading know? Muhammad is only one witness.

When I have asked whether anyone other than Muhammad heard the Angel Gabriel, every person has answered that he was the only one.

REMEMBER, it was NOT Gabriel who identified himself, it was Muhammad who made this claim. If Muhammad as Muslims claim was greater than Moses and Jesus and these two Prophets fit every detail defined by the word WITNESS why does Muhammad fail in every aspect in the word, not having even ONE credible witness to confirm his revelation?

From Mt. Sinai God spoke to Moses and ALL the Children of Israel and they SAW his power.

During the life of Jesus there were three times that God spoke openly as a second witness. The first time was when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.

Obviously, John and those being baptized at the same time heard this voice. The second time occurred in the presence of his three disciples - Peter, James and John (two or more witnesses to confirm) He took them up on a high mountain where he was transfigured. His clothes became dazzling. Moses and Elijah, who had each been dead for more than 900 years, appeared to Jesus.

Although most prophets are not confirmed by a voice from heaven but many have, or by fire like in the case of Moses and Elijah, BUT no one, I mean NO ONE in the Quran can confirm ANY of Muhammad claims by even the definition of the word witness. If he was greater and if he was a prophet as Muslims like to claim what made him so great compared to the others? Where did he even come from and by whose authority?

Well, wherever he came from it really does not matter because according to the LAW of Moses it was not from God.

But, now we do see why the message of such Prophets as - Moses, Jeremiah, Jesus and Paul (primarily known as an apostle) directly contradicts the message of Muhammad, why I am not surprised.

Since this thread is really about Paul and Muhammad, read this closely and carefully:

Here is what one renowned commentary, Al-Qurtubi, says about Paul:

Ibn Ishaq stated that of the apostles and disciples that Jesus sent (to preach) there were Peter AND PAUL who went to Rome;

al-Qurtubi had no qualms in admitting that Paul was a legitimate follower of Christ!

Then there is this candid admission in reference to Q 3:54 and Q 61:14

The Quran teaches that Jesus was God's best prophet, and that Christians will be placed above non-believers until the Day of Judgment. (Dr. Nader Pourhassan, The Corruption of Moslem Minds [Barbed Wire Publishers, Las Cruces, New Mexico 2002], pp. 61-62)

The first time I read this verse [3:54] in the Quran, I could hardly believe my eyes. Even today, any Muslim I discuss this verse with is shocked. In the Quran, God tells all Muslims that the followers of Jesus will be exalted above the disbelievers until the Day of Resurrection. God's prediction that the Christians will succeed in doing so is even clearer in the following verse [author then cites 61:14] ..."

Most Muslims obtain their understanding of the Quran from the interpretations of their religious leaders. Few ever question what they are told to believe. But the book contains many messages that might shock them from their complacency.

The above verse says very simply that Christians will be above non-believers until the resurrection.

 
The following is for you Kish....
 
Sahih International
 
Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.
Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.
And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.
They [think to] deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive not except themselves and perceive [it] not.
In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they [habitually] used to lie.
2:6-10
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2012 at 2:25pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by Kish

Well, Islam had more than enough chances to present his case to bring forth “two or more witnesses” within the Quran and according to the LAW of Moses to establish Muhammad’s revelation as being an established historical fact and that he was indeed a messenger or a prophet of God.


Obviously, Kish's desperation has hit rock-bottom.  Not only has he failed to prove his own theory with regard to the Biblical prophets, he has ignored the fact that I have already provided the evidence he seeks regarding Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).  Oh well.  As the Quran says:

"The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom." (2:171)

Originally posted by Kish

Based on his own thorough research in what defines a witness, Muhammad failed in ALL respect. UNLIKE, Jeremiah, Jesus, Paul and ALL other writers of the Holy Scriptures (Old and New Testament) who had credible witnesses to testify, confirm and acknowledge their “inspired” written message Muhammad had NONE, ZERO, ZILCH!


Oh, Kish...You resorted to special pleading with regard to the Biblical prophets when you realized that your own interpretation of Deuteronomy 19:15 left you between a rock and a hard place.  None of the Biblical prophets had two witnesses in their lifetimes, which is what Deuteronomy 19:15 required.  They had to be living witnesses who could testify on behalf of the accused person or against him. 

Originally posted by Kish

When God said through Moses that no prophet should be accepted until his prophecy comes true, He was saying that there must be two witnesses.


Which is why it is obvious that Paul made a false prophecy about Jesus' second coming.  When this didn't happen, the early Christians were confused and began questioning why Jesus (pbuh) had not yet returned.  As a result, other Christians tried to come up with an excuse:

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:8-9)

It is abundantly clear that Paul and the other Christians were eagerly waiting for Jesus' return in their lifetimes.  When this did not happen, even long after Paul was dead, other Christians tried to make excuses.

Originally posted by Kish

What are the confirming witnesses that the words of the Qur'an which Muhammad spoke came from God? Why does every prophet in the Holy Scriptures have a confirming “witness” and in the Quran Muhammad does not have a confirming “witness”, that is the million dollar question. Why was Muhammad so secretive with his so call revelation?


Already answered, Kish, if only you would pay attention and were not so in love with the sound of your voice! LOL

Originally posted by Kish

When Muhammad walked into Mecca, or now walks into the mind of one who reads the Qur'an, and says that God spoke to him and told him about the day of judgment, how will the person hearing or reading know? Muhammad is only one witness.


Here is more evidence, in addition to the testimonies of Bahira, Waraqah and the Negus.  The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) prophesied that the Muslims would conquer Persia.  This prophecy was related by more than one person:

"Nafi' b. Utba reported: We were with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in an expedition that there came a people to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) from the direction of the west. [...] I however, went to them and stood between them and him and I remember four of the words (on that occasion) which I repeat (on the fingers of my hand) that he (Allah's Messenger) said: You will attack Arabia and Allah will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack Persia and He would make you to Conquer it. Then you would attack Rome and Allah will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack the Dajjal and Allah will enable you to conquer him. Nafi' said: Jabir, we thought that the Dajjal would appear after Rome (Syrian territory) would be conquered.  (Sahih Muslim, Book #041, Hadith #6930)"

"'Abdullah b. 'Amr b. al-As reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: How would you be, oh people, when Persia and Rome would be conquered for you? 'Abd at-Rahman b Auf said: We would say as Allah has commanded us and we would express our gratitude to Allah Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Nothing else besides it? You would (in fact) vie with one another, then you would feel jealous. Then your relations would be estranged and then you will bear enmity against one another. or something to the same effect. Then you would go to the poor emigrants and would make some the masters of the others.  (Sahih Muslim, Book #042, Hadith #7067)
"

How much more evidence do you need, Kish?  Why do you keep lying to yourself?  Ponder these words of the Quran, for your own good:

"But as to those who rejected Allah, (to them will be said): "Were not Our Signs rehearsed to you? But ye were arrogant, and were a people given to sin!" (45:31)

Originally posted by Kish

When I have asked whether anyone other than Muhammad heard the Angel Gabriel, every person has answered that he was the only one.


We are back to that again?  How clueless are you?  As I have shown, many prophets in the Bible were alone when they received God's word!  It's no wonder that you ignored my list of Biblical prophets and holy people who received God's word in solitude:

1.  Isaiah - 0 witnesses

"The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah." (Isaiah 1:1)

2.  Jeremiah - 0 witnesses

"The words of Jeremiah son of Hilkiah, one of the priests at Anathoth in the territory of Benjamin. The word of the Lord came to him in the thirteenth year of the reign of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah, and through the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, down to the fifth month of the eleventh year of Zedekiah son of Josiah king of Judah, when the people of Jerusalem went into exile." (Jeremiah 1:1-3)

3.  Ezekiel - 0 witnesses

"In my thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God." (Ezekiel 1:1)

4.  Daniel - 0 witnesses

"Then Daniel returned to his house and explained the matter to his friends Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah. 18 He urged them to plead for mercy from the God of heaven concerning this mystery, so that he and his friends might not be executed with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. 19 During the night the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision." (Daniel 2:17-19)

5.  Hosea - 0 witnesses

"The word of the Lord that came to Hosea son of Beeri during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and during the reign of Jeroboam son of Jehoasha]">[a] king of Israel:" (Hosea 1:1)

6.  Joel - 0 witnesses

"The word of the Lord that came to Joel son of Pethuel." (Joel 1:1)

7.  Amos - 0 witnesses

"The words of Amos, one of the shepherds of Tekoa—the vision he saw concerning Israel two years before the earthquake, when Uzziah was king of Judah and Jeroboam son of Jehoasha]">[a] was king of Israel." (Amos 1:1)

8.  Zechariah (NT) - 0 witnesses

"Once when Zechariah’s division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God, he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10 And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside.

11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense." (Luke 1:8-11)

9.  Mary (NT) - 0 witnesses

"
In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”" (Luke 1:26-28)

Zechariah is especially important since the Gospel of Luke states clearly that he was alone in the temple when an angel appeared to him.  Therefore, the fact that Muhammad (pbuh) was alone in the Cave of Hira when Gabriel (as) visited him is not without precedent in the Bible.  It is hilarious that Kish ignores the fact that the Biblical prophets were alone and had no witnesses yet screams like a shrieking harpy that Muhammad (pbuh) was alone. 

Originally posted by Kish

Prophets fit every detail defined by the word WITNESS why does Muhammad fail in every aspect in the word, not having even ONE credible witness to confirm his revelation?


Ignorant man...It is well-known that when Muhammad (pbuh) fled from the cave, he saw the angel again and it identified itself as Gabriel (as):

"Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) repeated the words after the Angel, and then fled in fear down the mountain. When halfway down the mountain, he heard a voice speaking:
"O Mohammad, you are the Messenger of God, and I am Gabriel."
The Prophet stood, looking upward, and he saw the Angel of God everywhere, to the farthest reaches of the horizon." [1]


For a visual aid, see the following clip (specifically from 8:50 onwards):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUNRXiVogZI

Gabriel (as) identified himself clearly to Muhammad (pbuh).  Your ignorance misguides you.

By the way, who was the "angel" that appeared to Mary to announce to her the birth of Jesus (pbuh)?  The Gospel of Luke states that it did not identify clearly itself to Mary, but rather claims that it was Gabriel:

"In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”" (Luke 1:26-28)


Why is it that you keep changing your argument?  Every time you do, you dig yourself into a deeper hole.  When will you open your eyes?

Originally posted by Kish

From Mt. Sinai God spoke to Moses and ALL the Children of Israel and they SAW his power.

During the life of Jesus there were three times that God spoke openly as a second witness. The first time was when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.

Obviously, John and those being baptized at the same time heard this voice. The second time occurred in the presence of his three disciples - Peter, James and John (two or more witnesses to confirm) He took them up on a high mountain where he was transfigured. His clothes became dazzling. Moses and Elijah, who had each been dead for more than 900 years, appeared to Jesus.

Yeah, and there were also witnesses to Jesus' alleged prophecy that he would return in the lifetime of the disciples:

"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthc]">[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d]">[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that ite]">[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." (Matthew 24:30-35)

Therefore, according to your "two witnesses" theory, Jesus (pbuh) made a false prophecy.  It's no wonder that Paul also made the same false prophecy.

Originally posted by Kish

Although most prophets are not confirmed by a voice from heaven but many have, or by fire like in the case of Moses and Elijah, BUT no one, I mean NO ONE in the Quran can confirm ANY of Muhammad claims by even the definition of the word witness. If he was greater and if he was a prophet as Muslims like to claim what made him so great compared to the others? Where did he even come from and by whose authority?

Still denying the truth?  See above.

You still have yet to name the witnesses for the minor prophets like Obadiah (pbuh), Amos (pbuh) etc.  Who were the witnesses for Zechariah (pbuh)?  

Originally posted by Kish

Well, wherever he came from it really does not matter because according to the LAW of Moses it was not from God.

More special pleading?  I have already proven that Muhammad (pbuh) brought the same message as the previous prophets.  I also showed that the Law of Moses was for the Jews only, whereas the Law of Muhammad was for all people of the world.  Even then, both sets of laws shared many similarities. 

On the other hand, the Jesus of the Bible did not uphold the Law of Moses, and neither did Paul.  Of course, Kish conveniently ignores this fact and tries to lessen the damage by saying that they "principally" upheld the Law of Moses.

Originally posted by Kish

But, now we do see why the message of such Prophets as - Moses, Jeremiah, Jesus and Paul (primarily known as an apostle) directly contradicts the message of Muhammad, why I am not surprised.

Mindless repetition...now I see why you keep doing that!  You are trying to convince yourself with your own ignorance  and lies!

Originally posted by Kish

Ibn Ishaq stated that of the apostles and disciples that Jesus sent (to preach) there were Peter AND PAUL who went to Rome;

al-Qurtubi had no qualms in admitting that Paul was a legitimate follower of Christ!

Here is another one of Kish' favorite tactics...shameless copying of "Answering-Islam"!

What Kish fails to realize is that Ibn Ishaq was known to rely heavily on Jewish and Christian traditions and that these traditions have no importance to Muslims, because our sources are the Quran and Sunnah.

Moreover, had Kish actually read the Quran, he would have realized that Jesus (pbuh) was speaking in Surah 61:14 to his disciples and that this was before the attempt on his life.  How then can this verse be referring to Paul, whom your own Bible admits only became a "disciple" on the road to Damascus?!  Use your head, Kish! 

If you need more proof, ponder on what the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas states:

"They were 12 male disciples, the first to believe in him and help him against his enemies. All of these men were believers." [2]

The moral of the story, Kish, is: don't cut and paste from "Answering-Islam"! LOL

Originally posted by Kish

Then there is this candid admission in reference to Q 3:54 and Q 61:14

...which, if you had actually read them, would make you realize that they could not have been referring to Paul, who did not become a "disciple" until much later!  Do you not believe your own Bible? Confused

Originally posted by Kish

The Quran teaches that Jesus was God's best prophet, and that Christians will be placed above non-believers until the Day of Judgment. (Dr. Nader Pourhassan, The Corruption of Moslem Minds [Barbed Wire Publishers, Las Cruces, New Mexico 2002], pp. 61-62)

The first time I read this verse [3:54] in the Quran, I could hardly believe my eyes. Even today, any Muslim I discuss this verse with is shocked. In the Quran, God tells all Muslims that the followers of Jesus will be exalted above the disbelievers until the Day of Resurrection. God's prediction that the Christians will succeed in doing so is even clearer in the following verse [author then cites 61:14] ..."


LOL Another pathetic appeal to pseudo-experts who have no knowledge about the Quran.  Let me educate you and "Dr. Pourhassan".  First, one wonders what verse "Dr. Pourhassan" was reading because if we look at 3:54, here is what we find:

"And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah." (3:54)

Has "Dr. Pourhassan" even read the Quran? LOL He probably meant 3:55, which states:

"Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute." (3:55)

All this verse says is that Allah (swt) will hold in high esteem those who follow Jesus (pbuh) over those who disbelieved.  If the Quran was saying that Christians (does that include Jehovah's Witnesses??) were the true followers of Jesus (pbuh), then it would not say that Christians have "forgotten" a large part of Jesus' message:

"From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done." (5:14)

Second, no, dear "doctor", the Quran does not place one prophet above another:

"Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."" (2:136)

It also states that Jesus (pbuh) is one of God's creations, just like Adam (pbuh):

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." (3:59)

Also, it states that Muslims, not Christians, are the "best of people" and actually criticizes the Jews and Christians for not doing the same:

"Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors." (2:110)

Originally posted by Kish

Most Muslims obtain their understanding of the Quran from the interpretations of their religious leaders. Few ever question what they are told to believe. But the book contains many messages that might shock them from their complacency.

The above verse says very simply that Christians will be above non-believers until the resurrection.

How rich!  An ignorant Christian who has never read the Quran himself and gets all of his information from pseudo-scholarly sources like "Answering-Islam" criticizes Muslims for "obtaining their understanding...from the interpretation of their religious leaders"!  Clap  Oh the irony!



Edited by islamispeace - 25 December 2012 at 2:38pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 31 December 2012 at 2:31pm
So, again my only question still remains unanswered by Islam although he is beginning to understand the term “WITNESS” but continues to dance around the correct answer. . .
Originally posted by kish

What are the confirming witnesses that the words of the Qur'an which Muhammad spoke came from God? Why does every prophet in the Holy Scriptures have a confirming “witness” and in the Quran Muhammad does not have a confirming “witness”, that is the million dollar question. Why was Muhammad so secretive with his so call revelation?

His answer . . .
Originally posted by islamispeace

. . . testimonies of Bahira, Waraqah and the Negus. . . " . . . (Sahih Muslim, Book #041, Hadith #6930) But as to those who rejected Allah, (to them will be said): "Were not Our Signs rehearsed to you? But ye were arrogant, and were a people given to sin!" (45:31)

A real easy question for someone who has an sincere answer; Why it is that Islam cannot provide a “Witness” testimony from within the Quran but has to resort to the Hadith? I will tell you why, the Quran is incomplete without it. Imagine that, someone Holy Book incomplete. How much confidence can you have in an incomplete book? If you need outside sources to complete your book, you’re way in danger, that is something that your Mahdi on the white horse carrying black flags cannot help you with.
But the problem with this is that Muhammad is expressly told to follow and judge only by the inspiration which HE received, and what he received was the Quran NOT the hadith:
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee… So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee… S. 5:48-49
. . . Say (O Muhammad): It is not for me to change it of my accord. I only follow that which is inspired in me. Lo! if I disobey my Lord I fear the retribution of an awful Day. S. 10:15
You follow your desires; even Shia Muslims dismiss some of its contents as fabrications or untrustworthy due to the questionable reliability of some narrators, conflicts with the Qur'an or character of the Prophet of Islam.
So, not even all Muslims believe in the hadiths, and Muslims have been divided since the existence of these books. http://www.rim.org/muslim/hadith.htm
Unlike the Bible, the Quran cannot provide a single “witness” to Muhammad’s revelations in which the religion of Islam stands on, a serious blow!
Originally posted by islamispeace

How much more evidence do you need, Kish?

Just your Quran, can you do that?
Then I asked. . .
Originally posted by kish

. . . anyone other than Muhammad heard the Angel Gabriel, every person has answered that he was the only one.

You answered . . .
Originally posted by islamispeace

As I have shown, many prophets in the Bible were alone when they received God's word!

Which means not one person heard what the LAST prophet supposedly heard the last of the last prophets, right, and not any witnesses like what Jesus or Paul experience, the very Prophets you and I are discussing?
Also, the list that you have from Isaiah – Mary, as I said before . . .
Originally posted by kish

. . . any giving Prophet in the Old and Testament fits at least one or more of the criteria of what a witness to their testimony is.

Why you continue to put - 0 witnesses is beyond me unless you are still stuck on the fact that no one eye-witnessed it, if so go to Webster’s dictionary again and read what the definition of a witness is out aloud. They all were confirmed an acknowledged by two or more witnesses in the Bible.
In the Quran where are Muhammad’s witness testimonies? He did not have any, which means that he is a self-proclaimed messenger of God which carries no credentials at all.
Originally posted by islamispeace

It is hilarious that Kish ignores the fact that the Biblical prophets were alone and had no witnesses yet screams like a shrieking harpy that Muhammad (pbuh) was alone.

Wow! It is true, you still have no idea what the word witness means so here it is again . . .you really believe the person(s) has to be right in front of your eyes to witness an event or testimony, like in the case of Moses, Jesus, Paul etc. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/witness
Originally posted by islamispeace

By the way, who was the "angel" that appeared to Mary to announce to her the birth of Jesus (pbuh)? The Gospel of Luke states that it did not identify clearly itself to Mary, but rather claims that it was Gabriel:

. . .and yet by definition of the word “WITNESS” Muhammad confirms the Gospel account in his book the Quran that it was Gabriel that spoke to Mary and Elizabeth all though he was not present with them.
A hearsay witness is one who testifies what someone else said or wrote.
This gets easier by the day. Now that Muhammad confirms/witnesses the Gospel account of Mary and Elizabeth, who conforms the account of Muhammad in the Quran?
Here is the quote of the day!
Originally posted by islamispeace

. . . you dig yourself into a deeper hole. When will you open your eyes?

Now, that hurts.
Does Islam get it?
Originally posted by islamispeace

You still have yet to name the witnesses for the minor prophets like Obadiah (pbuh), Amos (pbuh) etc. Who were the witnesses for Zechariah (pbuh)?

Nope he does not get it yet! Islam, go get Webster’s dictionary from upstairs, now! Because you and your Quran confirm the testimony to these “minor” prophets just by giving them the credit as prophets, obviously the Quran agrees that they are.
Originally posted by islamispeace

So far, you have failed to provide "eyewitness testimony" for any of the Biblical prophets.

Selected amnesia I see. Show me where the Torah specifically said eyewitnesses, since you feel it is necessary to change it from where it says witnesses. On the other-hand Moses, Jesus, Paul and many others had several eyewitnesses at a time.
Originally posted by islamispeace

On the other hand, I have given you two examples of "eyewitnesses" to Muhammad's prophethood. They are Bahira and Waraqah.

If only you can do the same with Muhammad using the sura’s in the Quran and not the books of the hadith (Sahih) which is based on the alleged traditions of men, an outside source that have divided the Muslim world. Because that in itself makes the Quran incomplete!
As far as the legendary, fanciful stories of Bahira, Waraqah and Negus which are of totally separate events in his life, well these are nice bedtime stories I guess you can tell your children before they go to sleep on how Muhammad in his early life talked with Christians and their paradise gardens in heaven and how Muhammad had spots and moles on him which was proof of him being a prophet.
Bottom line, they all point to the hadith not the Quran as it source and overwhelmingly failed the “two or more witness” rule to his revelations, back to square one.
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Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 01 January 2013 at 10:42am

Hi Islamispeace,

Sorry but I fail to see how you have convinced Kish of anything. I know you believe it to the fullest extent yourself so proof is as easy as an Arabic word, (most of which have many meanings). This looks like a case of proving it to yourself over and over and getting frustrated when your twos and two don’t make fours in the eyes of others. There are reasons for that. In the same way you cannot convince me by your arguments that Paul was not a Prophet.

If you want to convince me you will have to go deeper into his ministry and show me where he contradicted Jesus, but this much for now…

Originally posted by islamispeace

Let us deal with Paul first.  Before we delve into whether he passed the test of Deuteronomy 18, it is prudent to read the story of his life-changing experience on the road to Damascus.  In fact, there are multiple accounts of this encounter in the New Testament:

"As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” 5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”  

7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything." (Acts 9:3-9)

"“About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’ 8 “‘Who are you, Lord?’ I asked. “ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. 9 My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me. 10 “‘What shall I do, Lord?’ I asked. “ ‘Get up,’ the Lord said, ‘and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’ 11 My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me." (Acts 22:6-11)

"“On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,a]">[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’" (Acts 26:12-14)

The differences in these verses are self-evident.  One would think that the "inspired" authors of the New Testament would not have written contradictory accounts of the same story. 

Contradictory? One account mentions the companions heard but did not see anything. (How’s your spiritual vision doing?) Another says  couldn’t  see anything, (possibly because of a bright light?) Another says they fell to the ground. Do the first two accounts say they did not fall to the ground? K, noticed the variations, missed the contradictions. People like to mix them up lots.

This is an old Muslim criticism. All NT accounts must be exact yet the 7 variations of the Quranic account  of Sodom and Gomorrah should not be questioned. It’s a double standard.

 

Moving on, does Paul pass the test of Deuteronomy 18?  Did he speak in the name of the One God or in the name of "other gods"?  Did he proclaim anything that did not come to pass?  The answer can be found in the following verses:

"To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:2-3)

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." (Titus 2:11-14)

Clearly, Paul spoke in the name of Jesus and worshiped him as "God", which is of course nothing new.  It is the central tenet of Christianity that Jesus was God incarnate.  But by speaking in the name of Jesus, Paul fails the test of Deuteronomy 18.

Clearly you are into the NIV and its updated opinions. Read the KJV and you will note how Paul always separates God from Jesus. I suppose nobody ever said Praise Allah and Muhammad in the same sentence before?

Finally, Paul also spoke about future events, as in the following:

"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18)

Clearly, Paul was stating that Jesus' return was imminent and that it would occur within the lifetime of some of the first generation of Christians. 

Jesus said “Behold I come quickly” Jesus meant when He comes it will be quick; Paul’s prophesy was not about “Cool, we’ll see ya tomorrow” but about on the day it would happen. Where does Paul tell them they will all live until that day? Wishful thinking I’d say and same for every generation since that has sculpted the verses to believe it meant in their lifetime.

[quote] This prophecy was also made in the First Epistle of John:

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)

I find it odd you would use the words of another author, (John) as an argument against Paul. On the surface they seem to agree, not contradict, but it’s irrelevant to your argument. How did you miss that?  

John’s talk was a warning based on the appearance of anti-christs cast to the earth, which is what happened and remains even until this “hour”.  Not something Muslims want to get into, they’d rather say it’s all about the Jinn.

So what happens to a prophet that prophesies about the end time that isn’t going to happen until the end time? Would you not want to put them to death cuz it didn’t happen in your lifetime? John died of old age.

[quote]Therefore, Paul failed the second part of the test of Deuteronomy 18.  Hence, according to the Bible, Paul was a false prophet.

These arguments are not your own. They are age old and refuted many times. I would even venture to guess your training on this has been more Google than from sitting and listening to your Imam.  

On the other side of the coin…Using the NIV in your arguments will mess up a lot of “Christians” who do not know their own scripture. ;)

I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
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