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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2013 at 7:44am
Hi Hasan,

Quote: I was interested in only the facts of how the Christians changed the meanings of the entire verse by changing the place of the words in order to make their case. There is nothing more than that to it.
Here is the Jewish version and the same verse appears in Isaiah 9:5
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."   

Response: --- I don’t quite see what is changed. However, the Jewish version may separate the two Personages mentioned so it appears easier to understand

This is Isaiah from the Dead Sea Scroll:
9:6 “For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will be upon His shoulders. He is called Wonderful Councilor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
The Jewish version:
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

--- So are you suggesting that Christians changed something? --- Did they go back 750 years before Christianity began, to influence Isaiah when he wrote it? Or did they change the copy that was used from 125 BC to be put in the Dead Sea Scroll, to be taken out about 1947? --- Or did some Christians infiltrate the deciphering of the Hebrew in some secluded country, and then have it revealed through this Gnostic Library source?

The only change between the Scroll of Isaiah and the verse we have in the Bible today is the comma between Wonderful and Counselor in some versions.
   
Now if you can just get away from your "forever link to trinity every time Jesus is mentioned" --- for a minute, you might see the truth of the verse.

Isaiah said in 7:14 --- God Himself would give a Sign. A virgin would conceive and bear a Son and His name will be called Immanuel, --- meaning ‘God.’ --- But a special representative of God and not God Himself, --- who never leaves heaven.
--- And the government will be upon His (Immanuel’s) shoulders.
This special One who was called, ‘The Everlasting Father,’ or ‘Father of Eternity’ had to be the One who was with God from the beginning in order to be referred to as ‘everlasting.’

As I’ve said many times, the Word (Logos) was in the beginning with God. --- And the Word was the one who was Manifested at different times in the OT.

For instance, --- Melchizedek. It says this in Hebrews 7:
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, --- first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life.

That was the eternal One who was with God in the beginning and will continue into eternity.--- If you notice that John ‘called’ the Word, ‘God.’ --- Maybe this will help you understand the connection between the two, as this is written in John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
--- And we can say, the Word was God (or Immanuel, who came down from heaven) --- because, Immanuel means “God with us.”

--- So this is saying that not only is the Word ‘everlasting’ but the Word was the Manifestation of God that came down to us. --- So the Word was Immanuel, who came down to us, --- who was identified as the One who had the Government upon His shoulders, and was the Wonderful Counsellor, the Mighty God and the Everlasting Father (of Eternity).

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
--- (So there you have it. The Word came down from heaven to indwell a human body. The name of the heavenly Being was Immanuel, but the human that He indwelt would be called Jesus.)

--- Isn’t that what it says in Surah 3?:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

--- So the Word from Him (God) was the Personage (Immanuel) that came down from heaven to indwell a body on earth, --- and while on earth, He was ‘called’ Jesus, ‘the Prince of Peace.’
(More later)


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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 23 January 2013 at 1:39pm
Hi Hasan,

I want to add this, which might clarify what I said before. This again is from the Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah, chapter 9:
6 “For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will be upon His shoulders. He is called Wonderful Councilor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, --- (I basically said that the titles to here would apply to the One who came down from heaven, ‘Immanuel,’ --- which means God with us. --- But while He was on earth, He was called Jesus) --- “The Prince of Peace.”

--- (But look at the next verse to see what it says in the prophecy):
7 His government shall expand, and peace will be endless for the throne of David and his kingdom, to establish it and to sustain it with justice and righteousness from now on and forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do it.”

Here is what it says, after the birth was announced to Mary, in Luke 1:
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall CALL His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

Notice, in 31 “You will bring forth a Son and shall CALL His name Jesus
Notice the word, CALL – CALL – CALL His name Jesus. --- That was the 'earthly' name of the Immanuel that came down from heaven to dwell with mankind..

--- The name Jesus, means Savior. Matthew 1:
21. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall CALL His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
--- This One was also chosen to be a Sacrifice, as John the Baptist said in John 1:
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

BUT WHAT I WANT TO POINT OUT IS THIS PROPHECY IN ISAIAH 9:
7 His government shall expand, and peace will be endless for the throne of David and his kingdom, to establish it and to sustain it with justice and righteousness from now on and forever
And Luke 1:
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

Now, you see, this was not fulfilled in Jesus was it?
Jesus came as a Servant to bring Salvation first to the Jews and then the Gentiles.
He did not sit on the throne of David, and there was no physical sight of Him ruling over the house of Jacob. --- The house of Jacob and the nation of Israel pretty much came to an end in AD 70, when the Romans plundered and destroyed the Temple. --- Destroying all the records and genealogies.

33 “And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

--- But remember, Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world.” --- And Jesus established His Spiritual kingdom which WILL go on forever. --- But it was not from the throne of David, but was from the Throne of God, through God’s Holy Spirit that had descended on the Apostles and disciples on the Day of Pentecost.


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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2013 at 7:26am
(To continue)

--- But remember, Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world.” --- And Jesus established His Spiritual kingdom which WILL go on forever. --- But it was not from the throne of David, but was from the Throne of God, through God’s Holy Spirit that had descended on the Apostles and disciples on the Day of Pentecost.

The preliminary training was done through the three years that the Apostles spent with Jesus, while teaching the Jews, so that the Gospel would go ‘to the Jew first’ as was promised. --- The Day of Pentecost was the launching of the Spiritual Church to the Gentile world, --- and to whoever will receive the Gospel.

So you see, while these prophecies weren’t literally fulfilled, in Jesus, --- these are yet to be fulfilled when Jesus returns. --- He will not return in a human body, but in the power of God. --- As well as being called JESUS, --- it says this in Revelation 19:
11 “Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.”

***

--- And that will be the end of the great battles to subdue earth under the rule of Him who sat on the white horse, who was CALLED Faithful and True, --- And “The Word of God."

--- Then this is the final conclusion in 1 Corinthians 15:
24 Then comes the end, when He (Jesus, who is CALLED the Son, and the Word of God) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For “He (God) has put all things under His feet.”
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him (Jesus, the Son, the Word of God), then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him (God) who put all things under Him, --- THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.


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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2013 at 12:30pm
Placid,
all the pages you wrote were useless for one simple reason that they do not address the facts, rather you tried to simply cover the discovered truth with long unrelated posts. Am I not familiar with those tricks, sure I am. Will I leave it there, you bet, never.

You even failed to see the difference between the Jewish version and the Christian version.
I will repeat this a million time if you refuse it a time short!
Here is Jewish's version of the verse:
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
If you missed whoever is being talked about here is only called "the prince of peace", (Jesus, let us assume). And who is calling him that? God: "and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father,".
Now remember this comes from Jewish version, let us see what flipping did the Christians did to support their agenda.
Christian's version changed a lot just look at it and this is how it appears in many Christian Bibles:
" “For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will be upon His shoulders. He is called Wonderful Councilor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace."
Don't tell me you cannot tell the difference!
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 24 January 2013 at 12:33pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2013 at 12:35pm
This little change and alteration of a few words changed the entire concept of who is God and who is not. It is indeed a prime example of Bible alteration.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 28 January 2013 at 3:21am
Originally posted by honeto

You even failed to see the difference between the Jewish version and the Christian version. I will repeat this a million time if you refuse it a time short! Here is Jewish's version of the verse: "For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace." If you missed whoever is being talked about here is only called "the prince of peace", (Jesus, let us assume). And who is calling him that? God: "and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father,". Now remember this comes from Jewish version, let us see what flipping did the Christians did to support their agenda.
Christian's version changed a lot just look at it and this is how it appears in many Christian Bibles:“For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will be upon His shoulders. He is called Wonderful Councilor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace." Don't tell me you cannot tell the difference!
Hasan


Please can you tell us which translations you are using here then I can see if what you say has any validity?

Edited by bunter - 28 January 2013 at 3:22am
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 28 January 2013 at 6:31am
Hi Hasan,

Sorry, too many words.
This is what you said earlier:
Quote: Here is the Jewish version and the same verse appears in Isaiah 9:5
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."   
(My) Response: --- I don’t quite see what is changed. However, the Jewish version may separate the two Personages mentioned, so it appears easier to understand

--- Isaiah said He would be called “Immanuel,” --- which is a name of God. --- But it means “God with us” so it can’t mean Almighty God who never leaves heaven, but God’s Manifestation ‘Immanuel’ who came to earth. --- And He is this Personage who ‘has the authority upon his shoulder,’ --- who is called ‘Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, the Everlasting Father (of Eternity),’ --- But while He was on earth, indwelling the other Personage, --- He was called Jesus --- ‘the Prince of Peace.’

--- So, who was ‘Immanuel’ that came from God?

--- Notice what it says in Surah 3?:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

--- So the ‘Word from Him (God)’ was the Personage (Immanuel) that came down from heaven to indwell a body on earth, --- and while on earth, He was ‘CALLED’ Jesus, ‘the Prince of Peace.’

Surah 4:171 --- The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary,
So Jesus was the Messenger, --- and the Word that indwelt the Messenger, was the ‘Immanuel’ from God.

Surah 19:34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
36 Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
--- Notice: --- This is the Quran --- verifying Isaiah.


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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 29 January 2013 at 2:34am
Originally posted by Placid

Sorry, too many words.
This is what you said earlier:
Quote: Here is the Jewish version and the same verse appears in Isaiah 9:5
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."   
(My) Response: --- I don’t quite see what is changed. However, the Jewish version may separate the two Personages mentioned, so it appears easier to understand

--- Isaiah said He would be called “Immanuel,” --- which is a name of God. --- But it means “God with us” so it can’t mean Almighty God who never leaves heaven, but God’s Manifestation ‘Immanuel’ who came to earth. --- And He is this Personage who ‘has the authority upon his shoulder,’ --- who is called ‘Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, the Everlasting Father (of Eternity),’ --- But while He was on earth, indwelling the other Personage, --- He was called Jesus --- ‘the Prince of Peace.’

--- So, who was ‘Immanuel’ that came from God?

--- Notice what it says in Surah 3?:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

--- So the ‘Word from Him (God)’ was the Personage (Immanuel) that came down from heaven to indwell a body on earth, --- and while on earth, He was ‘CALLED’ Jesus, ‘the Prince of Peace.’

Surah 4:171 --- The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary,
So Jesus was the Messenger, --- and the Word that indwelt the Messenger, was the ‘Immanuel’ from God.

Surah 19:34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35 It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
36 Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
--- Notice: --- This is the Quran --- verifying Isaiah.


Why is it that you cannot tell us what translations you are using for the Bible or Quran?
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