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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 11:42am
Hi Abu,

Quote: Either you are confused or I am. Whoever wrote the Book of Hebrews, did he also have revelations from God? No he was just writing his own thoughts.

Response: --- The Book of Hebrews was called, ‘Paul’s Epistle to the Hebrews in the Douay and King James, but the newer Versions, have not named it.
It was no doubt included with Paul’s letters to the various Churches, as they were originally distributed individually and then sent as sections, and the Church letters were circulated among all the Churches, so it may have been natural to keep them together.

The other reason is the personal note in Chapter 13:
18 “Pray for us; for we are confident that we have a good conscience, in all things desiring to live honorably.
19 But I especially urge you to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.”
22 And I appeal to you, brethren, bear with the word of exhortation, for I have written to you in few words.
23 Know that our brother Timothy has been set free, with whom I shall see you if he comes shortly.
24 Greet all those who rule over you, and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.
--- This was no doubt written by Paul because he mentions Timothy and ‘those from Italy.’

22 --- refers to ‘his exhortation, written in a few words,’ --- and I believe this is an indication that Paul perhaps wrote all of Chapter 13, which would be a ‘short letter’ to the Hebrews, which is the only part that is written in Paul's style.

The 12 chapters are inspired revelation that fulfill many prophecies from the OT, --- so whether they were dictated to and through Paul or one of the other disciples, as has been suggested, there is no indication. (But not something off the top of anyone’s head.)

Quote: I don't understand about the geneology bit.
So you still think that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) appeared throughout history as different men? You also think that the Lord of Hosts is also Jesus (Alayhi Salaam)?

Response: --- There was no genealogy of Melchizedek, --- that is the point, which is evident that he came from God.
No I don’t believe Jesus appeared throughout the OT history --- since He hadn’t come into ‘being’ yet. --- He would have the DNA of Mary, so Jesus couldn’t precede Mary, could He?
But as I said, I believe that the Supernatural appearances, including the Lord of hosts were the Word (Logos).
Who do you think the Lord of hosts was?

Quote: So let me get this straight, you are saying that this 'more than an angel' figure is Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) or the Logos?

Response: --- I believe this ‘more than an angel’ figure with the wisdom of God was again the Word (Logos), in appearance like the other two. According to the Scriptures, the Word (Logos) was with God from the beginning and will go into eternity, --- that is why there was no genealogy. --- Jesus was born on earth, lived on earth, and died on earth, --- but because He was the special Messenger and Messiah of God, He was indwelt by the Word. --- As it says in Surah 3:45.
--- I believe that it was the Word that appeared in these other forms in the OT, before He indwelt the physical body of Jesus.

Quote: Why should God Almighty needs to manifest Himself to us? He has His angels as messengers. Seems very silly to me.

Response: --- But He had Prophets as messengers too, and as it says in Surah 4:171, Jesus son of Mary was a Messenger, --- where it also mentions, that He was the Messenger of, ‘God, the Word, and the Spirit,’ --- and it says, “But don’t say three, God is only One God.”

These are all good questions and I understand where you are coming from. --- So I am only trying to acquaint you with what is written in Scripture.
You don’t have to believe it as I do, but if it is God's word, you can’t easily discard it all, can you?


Placid

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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 17 January 2013 at 5:20am
Originally posted by Placid


Response: --- The Book of Hebrews was called, ‘Paul’s Epistle to the Hebrews in the Douay and King James, but the newer Versions, have not named it.
It was no doubt included with Paul’s letters to the various Churches, as they were originally distributed individually and then sent as sections, and the Church letters were circulated among all the Churches, so it may have been natural to keep them together.

--- This was no doubt written by Paul because he mentions Timothy and ‘those from Italy.’

22 --- refers to ‘his exhortation, written in a few words,’ --- and I believe this is an indication that Paul perhaps wrote all of Chapter 13, which would be a ‘short letter’ to the Hebrews, which is the only part that is written in Paul's style.
Ok so Hebrews was written by Paul. I'm sorry but if that is the case then I just can't take it seriously.

The 12 chapters are inspired revelation that fulfill many prophecies from the OT, --- so whether they were dictated to and through Paul or one of the other disciples, as has been suggested, there is no indication. (But not something off the top of anyone’s head.)
I think you are going a bit OTT with lines like "inspired revelation". I'm from the school that says Paul did not receive any revelation nor did he meet the 'risen Christ'.


Response: --- There was no genealogy of Melchizedek, --- that is the point, which is evident that he came from God.
No I don’t believe Jesus appeared throughout the OT history --- since He hadn’t come into ‘being’ yet. --- He would have the DNA of Mary, so Jesus couldn’t precede Mary, could He?
But as I said, I believe that the Supernatural appearances, including the Lord of hosts were the Word (Logos).
Who do you think the Lord of hosts was?
There was no geneology according to that charlatan Paul.
I think the Lord of Hosts was God Himself.


Response: --- I believe this ‘more than an angel’ figure with the wisdom of God was again the Word (Logos), in appearance like the other two. According to the Scriptures, the Word (Logos) was with God from the beginning and will go into eternity, --- that is why there was no genealogy. --- Jesus was born on earth, lived on earth, and died on earth, --- but because He was the special Messenger and Messiah of God, He was indwelt by the Word. --- As it says in Surah 3:45.
--- I believe that it was the Word that appeared in these other forms in the OT, before He indwelt the physical body of Jesus.
 
So God can't do all these things without the Word? There is no need for the Word to co-exist with the God from the beginning. That would be saying that
God wasn't capable of anything.



Response: --- But He had Prophets as messengers too, and as it says in Surah 4:171, Jesus son of Mary was a Messenger, --- where it also mentions, that He was the Messenger of, ‘God, the Word, and the Spirit,’ --- and it says, “But don’t say three, God is only One God.”
I see that you STILL have problems comprehending verse 4:171.
Sahih International
 
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. 4:171
All it says is that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) is not the son of god but a messenger of God. A word from God which means that all God had to say was "Be" and lo and behold Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) came into being or rather was conceived in the womb of Mary. Spirit (soul) created from Him, all human beings are given spirit or soul before they are born so that is not exclusive to Jesus (Alayhi Salaam).

These are all good questions and I understand where you are coming from. --- So I am only trying to acquaint you with what is written in Scripture.
You don’t have to believe it as I do, but if it is God's word, you can’t easily discard it all, can you?

You don't understand where I'm coming from because whatever I say to you goes over your head and then you complicate things. I am well acquainted with what is written as I used to be a Christian. I accept that there are still words of God contained the the Bible, mixed with man made corruptions. the trouble is you over complicate things where you see things that are not there. If you just accept that there is only One God then everything becomes crystal clear, like the fog has been lifted. 

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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2013 at 6:30am
Hi Hasan,

To study these verses from Isaiah in the Dead Sea scrolls:.

7:14 “Therefore the LORD Himself will give you a Sign. The young woman has conceived and is bearing a son, and His name will be Immanuel.”
9:6 “For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will be upon His shoulders. He is called Wonderful Councilor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

This is where God was giving a prophecy that Isaiah would not understand, because it would not be fulfilled for some 700 years.
--- This is how prophesy worked in the OT. --- Prophets were inspired by the Holy Spirit to make a prediction for the future, --- and, at the time of fulfillment, another servant of God who was inspired by the same Holy Spirit, would reveal it.

--- This is why, especially in the Gospel of Matthew which was written for the Jews, --- there are many places it says, “Thus it is written,” and then a ‘cross reference’ is given with chapter and verse.
Notice, in the Scroll copy, 7:14, it says ‘the young woman,’ whereas, it says in Matthew 1: 22, --- So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
--- Perhaps 700 years earlier, there was no question that a young woman referred to a virgin, --- but perhaps when this was revealed to Matthew in Greek, it was more accurate to identify her as a virgin, (which she was, or she would not have been a pure vessel for God to use).

As well as that, it establishes the name that Immanuel meant, “God with us.”
And this is a question from another topic where Islam said:
Quote: Jesus (pbuh) was never referred to by the name "Immanuel". Yet, Isaiah 7:14 clearly states that the name of the child will be "Immanuel" (not Jesus). How can this apply to Jesus?
--- This is the mystery, that the one called Immanuel, --- meaning ‘God with us,’ --- indwelt the human being (of virgin birth, with no human father), who would be called Jesus.

--- This is a statement from the other topic by Islam:
Quote: By the way, I already pointed out before that the name "Jesus" does not mean "savior". I don't know where you are getting this from. It actually means "God saves" or "Yahweh saves". Put another way, it means "The Lord is Salvation"

So, we have Immanuel, ‘God with us,’ --- and Jesus, ‘God saves,’ --- and as you said before, “Names remain the same” and have meaning.

So we have the two names. --- Immanuel, ‘God with us’ --- who was with God from the beginning, who could be called ‘the wonderful counselor,’ the Mighty God (not the Almighty God, but with power, because the government was placed upon his shoulders), and the Everlasting Father of eternity, --- because this Immanuel will be there till the end, and through eternity.

--- And Jesus, 'God saves,’ or ‘the Lord is salvation,’ or simply ‘Savior' --- who was not from the beginning, so these eternal names could not apply, to Him.
--- But He was and is called, ‘The Prince of Peace.

So, here is the Jewish verse from Torah:
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, (Immanuel, God with us) and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name (Jesus, Savior), "the prince of peace."     

It is easy to identify Immanuel as the Word, who was with God in the beginning, and came from heaven to earth to indwell the human body of Jesus as it says in John 1:14, and in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;


Placid

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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 8:21am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Hasan,

To study these verses from Isaiah in the Dead Sea scrolls:.

7:14 “Therefore the LORD Himself will give you a Sign. The young woman has conceived and is bearing a son, and His name will be Immanuel.”
9:6 “For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will be upon His shoulders. He is called Wonderful Councilor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

This is where God was giving a prophecy that Isaiah would not understand, because it would not be fulfilled for some 700 years.
--- This is how prophesy worked in the OT. --- Prophets were inspired by the Holy Spirit to make a prediction for the future, --- and, at the time of fulfillment, another servant of God who was inspired by the same Holy Spirit, would reveal it.

--- This is why, especially in the Gospel of Matthew which was written for the Jews, --- there are many places it says, “Thus it is written,” and then a ‘cross reference’ is given with chapter and verse.
Notice, in the Scroll copy, 7:14, it says ‘the young woman,’ whereas, it says in Matthew 1: 22, --- So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
--- Perhaps 700 years earlier, there was no question that a young woman referred to a virgin, --- but perhaps when this was revealed to Matthew in Greek, it was more accurate to identify her as a virgin, (which she was, or she would not have been a pure vessel for God to use).

As well as that, it establishes the name that Immanuel meant, “God with us.”
And this is a question from another topic where Islam said:
Quote: Jesus (pbuh) was never referred to by the name "Immanuel". Yet, Isaiah 7:14 clearly states that the name of the child will be "Immanuel" (not Jesus). How can this apply to Jesus?
--- This is the mystery, that the one called Immanuel, --- meaning ‘God with us,’ --- indwelt the human being (of virgin birth, with no human father), who would be called Jesus.

--- This is a statement from the other topic by Islam:
Quote: By the way, I already pointed out before that the name "Jesus" does not mean "savior". I don't know where you are getting this from. It actually means "God saves" or "Yahweh saves". Put another way, it means "The Lord is Salvation"

So, we have Immanuel, ‘God with us,’ --- and Jesus, ‘God saves,’ --- and as you said before, “Names remain the same” and have meaning.

So we have the two names. --- Immanuel, ‘God with us’ --- who was with God from the beginning, who could be called ‘the wonderful counselor,’ the Mighty God (not the Almighty God, but with power, because the government was placed upon his shoulders), and the Everlasting Father of eternity, --- because this Immanuel will be there till the end, and through eternity.

--- And Jesus, 'God saves,’ or ‘the Lord is salvation,’ or simply ‘Savior' --- who was not from the beginning, so these eternal names could not apply, to Him.
--- But He was and is called, ‘The Prince of Peace.

So, here is the Jewish verse from Torah:
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, (Immanuel, God with us) and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name (Jesus, Savior), "the prince of peace."     

It is easy to identify Immanuel as the Word, who was with God in the beginning, and came from heaven to earth to indwell the human body of Jesus as it says in John 1:14, and in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;


Placid

 
Mr. Placid stop twisting the Qur'anic verses to suit your confused ideology. I guess you are a Trinitarian Muslim? Be very careful o your will start a new cult.
 
What you have said in this forum, in my opinion, is just pure rubbish. I'm sure many people are having a laugh at your expense. A bit of friendly adivise, please stop now before your already tarnished reputation is damaged beyond repair.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 10:07am
Placid,
I was interested in only the facts of how the Christians changed the meanings of the entire verse by changing the place of the words in order to make their case.
There is nothing more than that to it. One cover up or one lie leads one to many more. I am just amazed and it confirms the truth that Jesus a man was made into God by man. It does not appeal to logic, it does not make sense, it defies all facts, it is untrue.
Here is the Jewish version and the same verse appears in Isaiah 9:5
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."           ה. כִּי יֶלֶד יֻלַּד לָנוּ בֵּן נִתַּן לָנוּ וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה עַל שִׁכְמוֹ וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ אֵל גִּבּוֹר אֲבִי עַד שַׂר שָׁלוֹם:"
See, this Jewish version of the verse has no problem and is in contrast to the Christian version. And another thing if you noticed is the tense used. "has been" not "will be" as the Christians changed it to.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 10:54am
Originally posted by honeto

Placid,
I was interested in only the facts of how the Christians changed the meanings of the entire verse by changing the place of the words in order to make their case.
There is nothing more than that to it. One cover up or one lie leads one to many more. I am just amazed and it confirms the truth that Jesus a man was made into God by man. It does not appeal to logic, it does not make sense, it defies all facts, it is untrue.
Here is the Jewish version and the same verse appears in Isaiah 9:5
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."           ה. כִּי יֶלֶד יֻלַּד לָנוּ בֵּן נִתַּן לָנוּ וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה עַל שִׁכְמוֹ וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ אֵל גִּבּוֹר אֲבִי עַד שַׂר שָׁלוֹם:"
See, this Jewish version of the verse has no problem and is in contrast to the Christian version. And another thing if you noticed is the tense used. "has been" not "will be" as the Christians changed it to.
Hasan


Greetings Hasan,

Your statements brought to mind two questions;
Why the need for the divine birth?
and if the scripture is translated 'has been', then who would it be referring to?

Salaam,
CH
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Quote Rational Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Why the need for the divine birth?

To show that He (almighty) is able to do anything.

"She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is." (3:47)


"She said, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?" (19:20) He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' " (19:21)

Ibn Kathir writes:

"This means a proof and a sign for mankind of the power of their Maker and Creator, Who diversified them in their creation. He created their father, Adam, without a male (father) or female (mother). Then, He created Hawwa' (Adam's spouse) from a male (father) without a female (mother). Then, He created the rest of their progeny from male and female, except `Isa. He caused `Isa to be born from a female without a male. Thus, Allah completed the four types of creation (of the human being), which proves the perfection of His power and the magnificence of His authority. There is no god worthy of worship except Him and there is no true Lord other than Him."

الله
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Quote Webber Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

 
Mr. Placid stop twisting the Qur'anic verses to suit your confused ideology. I guess you are a Trinitarian Muslim? Be very careful o your will start a new cult.
 
What you have said in this forum, in my opinion, is just pure rubbish. I'm sure many people are having a laugh at your expense. A bit of friendly adivise, please stop now before your already tarnished reputation is damaged beyond repair.
 
I've been told that every Ayat has 7 meanings.
I've also heard it said many Arabic words have several meanings.
several words X several meanings X 7 Quranic meanings = 1 Ayat.
 
What's the chance of getting that twisted?
I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26
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