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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 06 January 2013 at 1:41am
Originally posted by honeto


Placid, this is what I call the grand Christian deceit.
You quoted from Isaiah chapter 9. We all know that the book of Isaiah belongs to the OT, to the Jews. Let us see if it agrees with their version, ya'll borrowed it from them in the first place. So let us see if Isaiah 9:6 really said what you wrote it did, or someone made it to say what they wanted it to say.
Remember this verse was posted by you in response to my challenge that nowhere in the OT it says that the Messiah will be God. I know Jews were expecting a Messiah not God.

I am not contesting Isaiah 7:14 which says:
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." No mention that Immanuel is God.

Now let us look at the real stuff:

here is your version of the story:
" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Sure, this verse suggests "his name shall be....Mighty God".
To someone who has not done there critical homework this is the end of the road. Thank God it is not, the truth is something else, I searched for it, and found it. It is not too far, go to any Torah online website and it will show the truth of what the Christians did, they changed and placed just a couple of words to change the meanings and to clearly misguide and deceive themselves and others. Imagine what will be there end!!

Here is the Jewish version and the same verse appears in Isaiah 9:5
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."           ה. כִּי יֶלֶד יֻלַּד לָנוּ בֵּן נִתַּן לָנוּ וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה עַל שִׁכְמוֹ וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ אֵל גִּבּוֹר אֲבִי עַד שַׂר שָׁלוֹם:"

Wow, what a shame, what a deceit, what a monster, what s pit they have created for themselves, except those who are truth seekers, who only serve God.




PRIME EXAMPLE OF BIBLE ALTERATION, PRIME EXAMPLE OF BIBLE ALTERATION, here you got it!

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Thank you for the research brother! This doesn't surprise me one bit, yet they STILL claim the Bible hasn't been altered.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 07 January 2013 at 1:38pm
Hi Hasan

Quote: PRIME EXAMPLE OF BIBLE ALTERATION, PRIME EXAMPLE OF BIBLE ALTERATION, here you got it! --- And in Red Letters too.

Response: --- Well you sure caught me off guard with that. --- I had never heard before that the Christians went back and changed the prophecies of Isaiah.

I thought I better check this out too. --- (I will give more info later, but this is a start.)

--- I checked the oldest known copies of Isaiah and found the following:

Quote: The Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsaa) is one of the original seven Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in Qumran in 1947. It is the largest (734 cm) and best preserved of all the biblical scrolls, and the only one that is almost complete. The 54 columns contain all 66 chapters of the Hebrew version of the biblical Book of Isaiah. Dating from ca. 125 BCE, it is also one of the oldest of the Dead Sea Scrolls, some one thousand years older than the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible known to us before the scrolls' discovery. --- End of quote.

--- I Found one thing which I will mention later, but I thought I would check with the Douay first, as it was translated to English from the Latin Vulgate before 400 AD, --- which carried the Scriptures through from 400 -1600 AD:
6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.
7 His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace: he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom; to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and for ever: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Amplified:
6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace.(C)
7 Of the increase of His government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from the [latter] time forth, even forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.(D)

Knox Bible: (A few out of the ordinary translations.)

6 For our sakes a child is born, to our race a son is given, whose shoulder will bear the sceptre of princely power. What name shall be given him? Peerless among counsellors, the mighty God, Father of the world to come, the Prince of peace. 7 Ever wider shall his dominion spread, endlessly at peace; he will sit on David’s kingly throne, to give it lasting foundations of justice and right; so tenderly he loves us, the Lord of hosts.

Young’s Literal Translation:
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
7 To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this.

Complete Jewish Bible:
5 (6) For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us;
dominion will rest on his shoulders,
and he will be given the name
Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor
Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom
[Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God,
Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],
6 (7) in order to extend the dominion
and perpetuate the peace
of the throne and kingdom of David,
to secure it and sustain it
through justice and righteousness
henceforth and forever.
The zeal of Adonai-Tzva’ot
will accomplish this.

(There are slight variations, but the Dead Sea Scroll next.)


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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Hasan

Quote: PRIME EXAMPLE OF BIBLE ALTERATION, PRIME EXAMPLE OF BIBLE ALTERATION, here you got it! --- And in Red Letters too.

Response: --- Well you sure caught me off guard with that. --- I had never heard before that the Christians went back and changed the prophecies of Isaiah.

I thought I better check this out too. --- (I will give more info later, but this is a start.)

--- I checked the oldest known copies of Isaiah and found the following:

Quote: The Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsaa) is one of the original seven Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in Qumran in 1947. It is the largest (734 cm) and best preserved of all the biblical scrolls, and the only one that is almost complete. The 54 columns contain all 66 chapters of the Hebrew version of the biblical Book of Isaiah. Dating from ca. 125 BCE, it is also one of the oldest of the Dead Sea Scrolls, some one thousand years older than the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible known to us before the scrolls' discovery. --- End of quote.

--- I Found one thing which I will mention later, but I thought I would check with the Douay first, as it was translated to English from the Latin Vulgate before 400 AD, --- which carried the Scriptures through from 400 -1600 AD:
6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.
7 His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace: he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom; to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and for ever: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Amplified:
6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace.(C)
7 Of the increase of His government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from the [latter] time forth, even forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.(D)

Knox Bible: (A few out of the ordinary translations.)

6 For our sakes a child is born, to our race a son is given, whose shoulder will bear the sceptre of princely power. What name shall be given him? Peerless among counsellors, the mighty God, Father of the world to come, the Prince of peace. 7 Ever wider shall his dominion spread, endlessly at peace; he will sit on David’s kingly throne, to give it lasting foundations of justice and right; so tenderly he loves us, the Lord of hosts.

Young’s Literal Translation:
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
7 To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this.

Complete Jewish Bible:
5 (6) For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us;
dominion will rest on his shoulders,
and he will be given the name
Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor
Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom
[Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God,
Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],
6 (7) in order to extend the dominion
and perpetuate the peace
of the throne and kingdom of David,
to secure it and sustain it
through justice and righteousness
henceforth and forever.
The zeal of Adonai-Tzva’ot
will accomplish this.

(There are slight variations, but the Dead Sea Scroll next.)


Placid



Placid,
you are only looking at Christian sources, of course they are going to try to match it with their doctrine, in particular if they have them changed for a purpose. Go to a Jewish online bible and you will see the truth of this matter.
I am pasting this link from a popular Jewish online Bible, check it out to see how the original was before Christians took and modified it so they can make Jesus God.

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15940

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 08 January 2013 at 1:21pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2013 at 3:20pm
Hi Abu,

Quote:
(I said)--- I have said many times that Jesus was human from a human mother, So Jesus himself was not deity --- but because he had no human father, the Word and the Holy Spirit that indwelt his human body, were from God, --- and were one with God. --- So, since Jesus was a ‘son,’ --- who do you say his ‘Father’ was?
(You said) --- Jesus (pbuh) did not have a father, he was 'made' through a miraculous virgin birth. Therefore this is the reason that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala refers to Jesus as son of Mary. I don't know if you are aware but in Arabic culture a man is known as son of - (name of father).

Response: --- Yes, it was the same with the Jews, the lineage was always through the father. --- This is why the genealogy in Matthew is from Abraham through David, and through David’s son Solomon, down to Joseph ‘who was the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.” 1:16.
So in the Roman census Jesus was recorded as the son of Joseph, who was his foster father.

--- The other genealogy goes backwards from Mary, and records this in Luke 3:
23 “Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about 30 years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph.” --- This was the true line from David to Mary through David’s son Nathan.



(I said) --- We both believe there is only One God, --- and though we can’t see God, or His Holy Spirit, He can manifest Himself through other Personages, as He had done in the OT.
(You asked) --- What other Personages are you talking about? This will be interesting.

Response: --- As Melchizedek in Genesis 14:
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. --- And a description is given in Hebrews 7:
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham, and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

*** As the Lord in Genesis 18:
1 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way.
17 And the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing,
18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” 20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, --- (He would destroy them).
22 Then the men (angels) turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.

*** As the Angel of the Lord in Exodus 3:
1     Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2     2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
3     3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
4     5Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”
5     6Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

*** As the Commander of the Lord’s army in Joshua 5:
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”
14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”
15 Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.

*** From the Book of Judges to the Book of Malachi, the LORD of Hosts is a common name for God. (The Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jehovah of Armies).
He represented God, but was never seen by man

*** As the fourth Man in the fiery furnace in Daniel 3:
13 Then Nebuchadnezzar, in rage and fury, gave the command to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. So they brought these men before the king. --- (They would not bow down before the image of the king.)
20 And he commanded certain mighty men of valor who were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, and cast them into the burning fiery furnace
24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?” They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.”
25 “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”

--- Since God cannot be seen, I believe these Personages were the Word (Logos).
The Trinitarians usual say these appearances were the ‘Pre-incarnate Christ.’
--- They were not Jesus, as He hadn’t been born yet. --- But I believe that they were the Word that transferred from the LORD of hosts to Jesus, since the LORD of hosts was no more mentioned after Jesus was born, because the Word (Logos) took on the role of the Christ, indwelling the physical body of Jesus. --- Malachi 3:1.


(I asked) --- Why does Muhammad say, “Their reward is with ‘their’ Lord, or ‘his’ Lord,” --- rather than saying, “Their reward is with ‘our’ Lord?

(You said) ---Muhammad (pbuh) doesn't say anything. As a Christian you can be forgiven for thinking that the Holy Qur'an is the work of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) but to over a billion Muslims it is the inerrant Words or Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.

Response: -- Sorry, what I should have asked was, “Why does the Quran say, “Their reward is with ‘their’ Lord, or ‘his’ Lord,” --- rather than saying, “Their reward is with ‘our’ Lord?
--- Or are they written differently in your version?
(You asked) By the way, is English your mother tongue?
Response: --- Yes.


Placid



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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2013 at 1:14am
Originally posted by Placid



Response: --- As Melchizedek in Genesis 14:
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. --- And a description is given in Hebrews 7:
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham, and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
Why do you have to jump from High Priest of God to Son of God? If Hebrews was written by Paul then he is gravely mistaken.
Islamic scholars believe that Melchizedek is Dhul Qarnayn mentioned in the Holy Qur'an in Surah Al Khaf (18). I suggest you read it. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala says that He established him on the earth.

*** As the Lord in Genesis 18:
1 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way.
17 And the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing,
18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” 20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, --- (He would destroy them).
22 Then the men (angels) turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.
 
No man has ever seen God. According to the Holy Qur'an God did not visit Abraham (Alayhi Salaam) but three angels. So going by what we are told in the Holy Qur'an the above verses could be corrupted.
 

*** As the Angel of the Lord in Exodus 3:
1     Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2     2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
3     3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
4     5Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”
5     6Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
 
Are you saying the angel of the Lord is God Himself?
 

*** As the Commander of the Lord’s army in Joshua 5:
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”
14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”
15 Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.
 
Again angel not God.
 


--- Since God cannot be seen, I believe these Personages were the Word (Logos).
The Trinitarians usual say these appearances were the ‘Pre-incarnate Christ.’
--- They were not Jesus, as He hadn’t been born yet. --- But I believe that they were the Word that transferred from the LORD of hosts to Jesus, since the LORD of hosts was no more mentioned after Jesus was born, because the Word (Logos) took on the role of the Christ, indwelling the physical body of Jesus. --- Malachi 3:1.

What you believe, in my opinion, is wrong. Why can't you just accept God for God? Why bring the word or logos or whatever else you want to into the equation? Is it that difficult for you to accept God as being ONE?




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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2013 at 12:54pm
(To continue with):
The Dead Sea Scrolls

1. The Dead Sea Scrolls at the Gnostic Society Library: Online Texts from ...
A large collection of texts online from the Dead Sea Scrolls,
Complete Scholarly Translations of Scroll Texts with Commentary

Quote: Great Isaiah Scroll (Fred Miller) -- This site presents the most impressive internet presentation of a complete scroll from the DSS. While the site offers little of interest to a casual reader, it gives glimpses into the issues involved in the analysis and translation of a scroll. It includes black & white plates of each column of The Great Isaiah Scroll (one of the first seven scrolls found in Cave 1, and the oldest extant Hebrew biblical manuscript), along with detailed notes on the physical condition of the manuscript and comparison of its orthography and wording with the standard Masoretic text. The technical discussions of the site are obviously intended for scholars familiar with Hebrew

The Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsaa) is one of the original seven Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in Qumran in 1947. It is the largest (734 cm) and best preserved of all the biblical scrolls, and the only one that is almost complete. The 54 columns contain all 66 chapters of the Hebrew version of the biblical Book of Isaiah. Dating from ca. 125 BCE, it is also one of the oldest of the Dead Sea Scrolls, some one thousand years older than the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible known to us before the scrolls' discovery.
--- It exhibits a very full orthography (spelling), revealing how Hebrew was pronounced in the Second Temple Period. Around twenty additional copies of the Book of Isaiah were also found at Qumran (one more copy was discovered further south at Wadi Muraba'at), as well as six pesharim (commentaries) based on the book; Isaiah is also frequently quoted in other scrolls (a literary and religious phenomenon also present in New Testament writings). The authoritative and scriptural status of the Book of Isaiah is consistent with the messianic beliefs of the community living at Qumran, since Isaiah is known for his prophecies of judgment and consolation, and his visions of the End of Days and the coming of the Kingdom of God. --- End of quote.

7:14 “Therefore the LORD Himself will give you a Sign. The young woman has conceived and is bearing a son, and His name will be Immanuel.”

8:1 Moreover, the LORD said to me, “Take a large scroll and write on it with a man’s pen ---
13 The LORD of hosts, consider Him holy, revere Him, be in awe of Him.
14 He will be a sanctuary, but also ‘a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence,’ to both the house of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 Many among them may stumble and fall.
16 Bind up the testimony and seal the instructions among my disciples.
17 I will wait for the LORD who is hiding His face from the house of Jacob and I will hope for him.
18 Here I am with the children the LORD has given me as a Sign and a wonder in Israel from the LORD of hosts who dwells in Mount Zion.”

9:2 “’The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light. On those who lived in the land of deep shadows, light has shined.’
3 You have expanded the nation, you have increased its joy. They rejoice in your presence as with the joy at harvest, as people cheer as they divide spoil.
4 For the yoke of their burden and the pole on their shoulder, the rod of their oppressors , --- and you have broken, as in the day of Midion.”

9:6 “For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will be upon His shoulders. He is called Wonderful Councilor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
7 His government shall expand, and peace will be endless for the throne of David and his kingdom, to establish it and to sustain it with justice and righteousness from now on and forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do it.”

(Next we can study it)


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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2013 at 5:43pm
Hi Abu,

About Melchizedek:
Quote: Why do you have to jump from High Priest of God to Son of God? If Hebrews was written by Paul then he is gravely mistaken.
Islamic scholars believe that Melchizedek is Dhul Qarnayn mentioned in the Holy Qur'an in Surah Al Khaf (18). I suggest you read it. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala says that He established him on the earth.

Response: --- Hebrews wasn’t written by Paul, and I don’t see any identification of Melchizedek in Surah 18. Some sources say the references are to Alexander the Great. --- Melchizedek dated back to Genesis, but the description is in Hebrews in these words:
--- Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
If we understand that Almighty God never left Heaven, and that Jesus had a genealogy with beginning and end of life on earth, --- this figure was neither God nor Jesus. So who do you say it was?
You see, I don’t try to defend these difficult Scriptures, I just write them the way they are. --- However, what I found was this in Surah 18:
27 “And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.”
--- If we couple this with Surah 3:3 which says, “He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.” --- Then we have a dilemma. --- Either it is that, ‘God said it wrong,’ or ‘Gabriel confirmed it wrong.’
--- The angels were created beings, so would it apply to angels to say, “--- Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life,” --- This is why these special appearances seem to be the Word (Logos) of God, --- who could and did appear in different forms.

About the angels that visited Abraham:
Quote: No man has ever seen God. According to the Holy Qur'an God did not visit Abraham (Alayhi Salaam) but three angels. So going by what we are told in the Holy Qur'an the above verses could be corrupted.

Response: --- It is so convenient to say ‘corrupted.’ --- Then let’s say it was three angels.
One had this kind of wisdom in Genesis 18:17 “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing (18) Since he will surely become a great and mighty nation. (19) For I have known him ---- that his children and household that they keep the way of the LORD. ---( 32) He knew how many righteous ones there were in Sodom and Gomorrah, before it was destroyed.

About Moses and the burning bush:
Quote: Are you saying the angel of the Lord is God Himself?

Response: --- No, since Almighty God never leaves Heaven, but the Angel of the LORD came from God. --- Not another God, but a Manifestation of God.

About the Commander of the LORD’s army:
Quote: Again angel not God.

Response: --- Not God, but a Manifestation of ‘the LORD of hosts,’ who spoke as the Voice of God throughout the OT. --- (More than just an angel.)

Quote: What you believe, in my opinion, is wrong. Why can't you just accept God for God? Why bring the word or logos or whatever else you want to into the equation? Is it that difficult for you to accept God as being ONE?

Response: There is only one Almighty and Everlasting God who could never come to earth because His very approaching Presence would burn the earth to a crisp. --- But since God is God he can Manifest Himself in whatever form He chooses.
His multitudes of angels surround us. --- As it speaks in Surah 50:16-34, they can record our every thought and action, they can guide us through our conscience, or we can reject their warning. --- But they all respond to God, do they not?


Placid

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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2013 at 4:36am
Originally posted by Placid


Response: --- Hebrews wasn’t written by Paul, and I don’t see any identification of Melchizedek in Surah 18. Some sources say the references are to Alexander the Great. --- Melchizedek dated back to Genesis, but the description is in Hebrews in these words:
--- Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
If we understand that Almighty God never left Heaven, and that Jesus had a genealogy with beginning and end of life on earth, --- this figure was neither God nor Jesus. So who do you say it was?
You see, I don’t try to defend these difficult Scriptures, I just write them the way they are. --- However, what I found was this in Surah 18:
27 “And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.”
Either you are confused or I am. Whoever wrote the Book of Hebrews, did he also have revelations from God? No he was just writing hiw own thoughts.
I don't understand about the geneology bit.

--- The angels were created beings, so would it apply to angels to say, “--- Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life,” --- This is why these special appearances seem to be the Word (Logos) of God, --- who could and did appear in different forms.
So you still think that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) appeared throughout history as differerent men? You also think that the Lord of Hosts is also Jesus (Alayhi Salaam)?


About Moses and the burning bush:
Quote: Are you saying the angel of the Lord is God Himself?

Response: --- No, since Almighty God never leaves Heaven, but the Angel of the LORD came from God. --- Not another God, but a Manifestation of God.

About the Commander of the LORD’s army:
Quote: Again angel not God.

Response: --- Not God, but a Manifestation of ‘the LORD of hosts,’ who spoke as the Voice of God throughout the OT. --- (More than just an angel.)
So let me get this straight, you are saying that this 'more than an angel' figure is Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) or the Logos?


Response: There is only one Almighty and Everlasting God who could never come to earth because His very approaching Presence would burn the earth to a crisp. --- But since God is God he can Manifest Himself in whatever form He chooses.
His multitudes of angels surround us. --- As it speaks in Surah 50:16-34, they can record our every thought and action, they can guide us through our conscience, or we can reject their warning. --- But they all respond to God, do they not?


Placid

 
Why should God Almighty needs to manifest Himself to us? He has His angels as messengers. Seems very silly to me.
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