Placid,
so you agreed to both my points, 1- that there is no mention in the OT, that the Messiah will be God or a physical son of God. 2-According to English language rules and proper noun remains unchanged regardless of translations. Pluto will be Pluto.
Hasan

Hi Hasan,

Quote: --- So you agreed to both my points, 1- that there is no mention in the OT, that the Messiah will be God or a physical son of God. 2-According to English language rules and proper noun remains unchanged regardless of translations. Pluto will be Pluto.

Response: --- In Isaiah 7:14 it says, “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a Sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.

Concerning point 1: --- God couldn’t have a physical son, because God is not a physical Being, is He?
However, through the virgin birth, He could bring One into Being that is CALLED the Son of God, as it says in Luke 1:
35 And the angel (Gabriel) answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.”
9:6 says that the one born would be a physical Son, --- so, a son CALLED the Son of God.

Concerning point 2: --- the original name for Jesus was Immanuel, which is fulfilled in Matthew 1:
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

20 An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall CALL His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
--- The name Jesus means Savior, --- the name Christ means Messiah, --- so this was His name in the New Testament, “God with us, Jesus, the Christ.”

Isaiah 9:7 “Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.”

Again, this is fulfilled in Luke 1:
30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall CALL His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be CALLED the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

And Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, according to the prophecy in Micah 5:
2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel.”
--- It identifies ‘Ephrathah,’ as this is said to have been the district around Bethlehem in Judea. (And the ‘thousands’ of Judah must refer to the small towns and villages in Judah.)

And the angel appeared to the Shepherds, and said in Luke 2:
8 Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night.
9 And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid.
10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people.
11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
12 And this will be the Sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger.”

--- And there is the name again, “A Savior (Jesus) who is Christ the Lord.”
So there you have the full title, “The Lord Jesus Christ.”
--- And notice this from Isaiah 7:14 --- the “SIGN” --- The angel said, “This shall be a SIGN unto you.”

(Sorry, long answer for a short question)


Placid

Hi Abu,

Quote: Can you accept the Messiah or Christ or the Anointed one as a saviour (without the capital S) without attributing divinity to him?
Also isn't the Lord bit added?

Response: --- It is natural to capitalize the names or titles that are capitalized in the NT, but I have noticed that the word ‘savior’ is not used at all in the Quran, so then it really has no meaning for Muslims, does it?
However, the word Messiah is used in eight different verses, --- each time called the Messiah son of Mary, --- and each time it is capitalized.
Then there is this verse where the Word is capitalized in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

And this verse in 4:
171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him

This is the verse that says Jesus was the messenger and servant of God, and His ‘Word’ and His spirit (sometimes capitalized) --- which are from God.
172 The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave (servant) unto Allah, nor will the favoured angels.

I have said many times that Jesus was human from a human mother, So Jesus himself was not deity --- but because he had no human father, the Word and the Holy Spirit that indwelt his human body, were from God, --- and were one with God. --- So, since Jesus was a ‘son,’ --- who do you say his ‘Father’ was?

We both believe there is only One God, --- and though we can’t see God, or His Holy Spirit, He can manifest Himself through other Personages, as He had done in the OT.

I understand that to Muslims, ‘Lord’ always refers to God, and I can accept that. However I have wondered about the verses like these in Surah 2:
62 Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
112 Nay, but whosoever surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
2:277 Lo! those who believe and do good works and establish worship and pay the poor-due, their reward is with their Lord and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Why does Muhammad say, “Their reward is with ‘their’ Lord, or ‘his’ Lord,” --- rather than saying, “Their reward is with ‘our’ Lord?
--- Was he acknowledging that the Lord to the Jews was Jehovah, and that the Christians called Jesus their Lord?


Placid

Placid, this is what I call the grand Christian deceit.
You quoted from Isaiah chapter 9. We all know that the book of Isaiah belongs to the OT, to the Jews. Let us see if it agrees with their version, ya'll borrowed it from them in the first place. So let us see if Isaiah 9:6 really said what you wrote it did, or someone made it to say what they wanted it to say.
Remember this verse was posted by you in response to my challenge that nowhere in the OT it says that the Messiah will be God. I know Jews were expecting a Messiah not God.

I am not contesting Isaiah 7:14 which says:
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." No mention that Immanuel is God.

Now let us look at the real stuff:

here is your version of the story:
" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Sure, this verse suggests "his name shall be....Mighty God".
To someone who has not done there critical homework this is the end of the road. Thank God it is not, the truth is something else, I searched for it, and found it. It is not too far, go to any Torah online website and it will show the truth of what the Christians did, they changed and placed just a couple of words to change the meanings and to clearly misguide and deceive themselves and others. Imagine what will be there end!!

Here is the Jewish version and the same verse appears in Isaiah 9:5
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."           ה. כִּי יֶלֶד יֻלַּד לָנוּ בֵּן נִתַּן לָנוּ וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה עַל שִׁכְמוֹ וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ אֵל גִּבּוֹר אֲבִי עַד שַׂר שָׁלוֹם:"

Wow, what a shame, what a deceit, what a monster, what s pit they have created for themselves, except those who are truth seekers, who only serve God.




PRIME EXAMPLE OF BIBLE ALTERATION, PRIME EXAMPLE OF BIBLE ALTERATION, here you got it!

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 05 January 2013 at 3:35pm