Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS - Answer this Question Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 13 Next >>
Author Message
Abu Loren
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 996
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2012 at 8:15am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Abu,

Quote:
1) Why does the logos (word) has to exist as an entity?
2) Why does this logos (word) then be manifested as Jesus (pbuh)?
3) Why can't this logos (word) just be a word "Be"?
4) Why do Christians try to complicate everything?

Response: --- John wrote in John 1:
1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
This sounds like it is confirming that the Word (Logos) was God.

--- However, it is important to understand what that meant to the Jews and the Greeks, --- as it was written to them both.
The Jews were familiar with God ‘Speaking the Word, and it was done.’ --- To the Jews, the Word meant ‘The Creative power of God Himself.’

To the Greeks the term “Word” meant “Logos,” meaning, ‘The reason and power for the Universe.’ --- The Greeks had the concept that ‘behind it all’ there was a rational “Intelligence” that created and sustained all things, including the Cosmos.
While we call that the Power of our Almighty and Everlasting God, the Greeks called that Power, “Logos.”

John 1:2 says He (the Word), was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him (the Word).
4 In Him (the Word), was life, and the life was the light of men. (This ‘light of men’ also meant ‘enlightenment’ and intelligence to relate and respond to God.)

Now to go a little deeper we can look at Genesis 1:1 where it says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 And the Spirit of God moved (or was hovering) over the face of the waters
--- (Scientists agree that Life began in the sea, do they not?)

So the Spirit of God brought “Life” to God’s Creation.
3 And God said, ‘Let there “BE” Light, --- and there was Light
--- So we can say that the Spirit of God brought ‘Life’ into the world
And the Word “BE” brought ‘Light’ into the world.
The Spirit and the Word “BE” were there with God in the beginning
--- So they were recognized as ‘the power of God in Creation, --- and in the world.’

The wonderful Mystery of God is there, so I won’t go deeper into it as I know it can be confusing.

However, God created ‘beings’ (angels) to surround His throne, He loved them and they loved Him, but He went a step further to create ‘beings’ with a free will who would love God, of their own desire, in response to God’s love for them.

--- Notice how God created Adam? --- It says “He breathed into his (Adam’s) nostrils the ‘Breath of Life and man became a living “Being.”
--- Notice how God brought Jesus into being? --- He breathed into Mary’s body (or womb), and she conceived.

(Enough for now, a little more later. --- And you may have more questions.)


Placid

 
I think we've already had this exact explanation from you before. This is the same drvel that all the Christians try to explain about the 'word'. Sorry but it's all rather stoopid to me.
 
 
The wonderful Mystery of God is there, so I won’t go deeper into it as I know it can be confusing.
 
It's not really confusing at all, just stoopid.
 
IP IP Logged
Placid
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 November 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 231
Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 20 December 2012 at 7:08am
Hi Abu,

To continue to answer the questions about the Word, Logos.

There isn’t a ‘doctrine of trinity’ in the Scriptures. --- It was made a doctrine at a meeting in 325 AD.
--- However, it was always a mystery of God to the Church Fathers, who followed the Apostles. --- And more difficult even, was how to explain the relationship of the Word and the Holy Spirit to God, --- when they were asked.
--- Not all Christians believe in the ‘trinity’ (The word is simply a shortening of ‘tri-unity.’ --- It is like the word ‘university,’ which means ‘unity in diversity.’)

We are not to make any idols or images of God as it says in the first commandment in Exodus 20. --- However, we can make similitudes or parables that help us understand the greatness of God
The example they use of water is a good one in that the same element can be in liquid form --- which could be the truth of this verse in James 1:
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
--- The comparison is that, ‘Water always finds its own level.’
And the vapor from water that is boiled is like a spirit, thus like God’s Holy Spirit, as in this verse in John 3:
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
--- While this speaks of one who is indwelt by the Spirit, it signifies that the Spirit is like the wind, invisible, --- you can hear it and see the effects of it but it is invisible.
And Ice, the solid state of water. --- The Word (Logos) is also invisible, --- But in the case of Adam and Jesus, when God said “Be!” --- They came into being.

However, One of the Church Fathers in about the second century said he thought of the Word and the Holy Spirit as ‘the Arms of the Lord’ --- They were not separate entities, but God worked through them. --- Many places in the OT it mentions ‘the arm of the Lord,’ or ‘the arms of the Lord.’ --- It says in I John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
--- Now I want to give you one more picture of how their relationship can be understood, --- following this theme of the ‘arms of the Lord’.

Abu, do you play a guitar? --- If not, I am sure you know someone who does.
--- They often talk about ‘creating’ a symphony, a piece of music, or a song.
The ‘creating’ is --- ‘bringing into being something that has not existed before.’

Picture this, --- a person sits down with his guitar and has the music and words to a song in his mind, (his intellect).
With his left hand his fingers trace out the arrangement on the finger board. --- so his fingers can work silently to follow the arrangement that the person has in mind.
Then when he is ready, --- with his right hand he strums the strings and the melody comes from his right hand.

--- He can think all he wants, --- he can finger the strings all he wants with his left hand (which is attached to his body by the arm, full of muscles and nerves, which work in harmony with the intellect of the body),
--- But not until the right hand strums, or fingerpicks the strings, is there any evidence of the ‘new creation,’ is there?
--- If we can think this through without getting carried away, it is comparable.

All things are decided in the intellect of God, they are arranged and guided by the Holy Spirit of God, --- and they are put into action by the Word of God, “Be!” --- and it is.   


Placid

IP IP Logged
Abu Loren
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 996
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 22 December 2012 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Abu,

To continue to answer the questions about the Word, Logos.

There isn’t a ‘doctrine of trinity’ in the Scriptures. --- It was made a doctrine at a meeting in 325 AD.
--- However, it was always a mystery of God to the Church Fathers, who followed the Apostles. --- And more difficult even, was how to explain the relationship of the Word and the Holy Spirit to God, --- when they were asked.
--- Not all Christians believe in the ‘trinity’ (The word is simply a shortening of ‘tri-unity.’ --- It is like the word ‘university,’ which means ‘unity in diversity.’)

We are not to make any idols or images of God as it says in the first commandment in Exodus 20. --- However, we can make similitudes or parables that help us understand the greatness of God
The example they use of water is a good one in that the same element can be in liquid form --- which could be the truth of this verse in James 1:
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
--- The comparison is that, ‘Water always finds its own level.’
And the vapor from water that is boiled is like a spirit, thus like God’s Holy Spirit, as in this verse in John 3:
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
--- While this speaks of one who is indwelt by the Spirit, it signifies that the Spirit is like the wind, invisible, --- you can hear it and see the effects of it but it is invisible.
And Ice, the solid state of water. --- The Word (Logos) is also invisible, --- But in the case of Adam and Jesus, when God said “Be!” --- They came into being.

However, One of the Church Fathers in about the second century said he thought of the Word and the Holy Spirit as ‘the Arms of the Lord’ --- They were not separate entities, but God worked through them. --- Many places in the OT it mentions ‘the arm of the Lord,’ or ‘the arms of the Lord.’ --- It says in I John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
--- Now I want to give you one more picture of how their relationship can be understood, --- following this theme of the ‘arms of the Lord’.

Abu, do you play a guitar? --- If not, I am sure you know someone who does.
--- They often talk about ‘creating’ a symphony, a piece of music, or a song.
The ‘creating’ is --- ‘bringing into being something that has not existed before.’

Picture this, --- a person sits down with his guitar and has the music and words to a song in his mind, (his intellect).
With his left hand his fingers trace out the arrangement on the finger board. --- so his fingers can work silently to follow the arrangement that the person has in mind.
Then when he is ready, --- with his right hand he strums the strings and the melody comes from his right hand.

--- He can think all he wants, --- he can finger the strings all he wants with his left hand (which is attached to his body by the arm, full of muscles and nerves, which work in harmony with the intellect of the body),
--- But not until the right hand strums, or fingerpicks the strings, is there any evidence of the ‘new creation,’ is there?
--- If we can think this through without getting carried away, it is comparable.

All things are decided in the intellect of God, they are arranged and guided by the Holy Spirit of God, --- and they are put into action by the Word of God, “Be!” --- and it is.   


Placid

 
No offence but more baloney!
IP IP Logged
Placid
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 November 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 231
Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 25 December 2012 at 5:16am
Hi Abu,

I appreciate the fact that on an interfaith forum, where there are questions asked, --- there is the opportunity to answer them, giving references --- and that is the privilege we have here.

You asked the questions: Quote:
1 ) Why does the logos (word) has to exist as an entity?
2) Why does this logos (word) then be manifested as Jesus (pbuh)?
3) Why can't this logos (word) just be a word "Be"?

It doesn’t bother me that you don’t accept what I have explained, so,

I ask you, --- what is your understanding of what the ‘Word’ means in this verse? --- Surah 3:
45 Pickthall: (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
45 Yusuf Ali: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
45 Hilali Khan: (Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."

This is from the Quran, --- so, how do you explain the ‘Word,’ which is capitalized in this verse?


IP IP Logged
Abu Loren
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 996
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2012 at 12:12am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Abu,

I appreciate the fact that on an interfaith forum, where there are questions asked, --- there is the opportunity to answer them, giving references --- and that is the privilege we have here.

You asked the questions: Quote:
1 ) Why does the logos (word) has to exist as an entity?
2) Why does this logos (word) then be manifested as Jesus (pbuh)?
3) Why can't this logos (word) just be a word "Be"?

It doesn’t bother me that you don’t accept what I have explained, so,

I ask you, --- what is your understanding of what the ‘Word’ means in this verse? --- Surah 3:
45 Pickthall: (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
45 Yusuf Ali: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
45 Hilali Khan: (Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."

This is from the Quran, --- so, how do you explain the ‘Word,’ which is capitalized in this verse?


 
My understanding of the verse is that God said 'Be' ( we cannot know for sure as if it was spoken as in human terms as we do not know if God speaks like human do). It could be that by saying 'Be' is not really saying 'Be' but it's just for us to understand in human terms that it is very easy for God to make something or someone to come int being.
 
Unlike you I don't believe that the 'Word' is a third part of the Trinity.
IP IP Logged
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1924
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2012 at 2:59pm
surah 4:171
"The Christ Jesus son of Mary is indeed the prophet of God and His Word which He cast into Mary, and a spirit from Him."

Just curious, What does this mean to you?

To me it means simply this... that God cast the Word(Logos?) and the Spirit of Himself into Jesus to be born of Mary.

To put it another way... to break it down
Jesus is the Christ
Jesus the son of Mary
the prophet of God
who carries the Word of God and the Spirit of God within Him.

I think it is Muhammad who was confused and did not understand the word being given to him.
Muhammad was confused about God's Word... the scriptures.

Edited by Caringheart - 26 December 2012 at 3:02pm
IP IP Logged
Abu Loren
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 996
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 27 December 2012 at 2:25am
Originally posted by Caringheart

surah 4:171
"The Christ Jesus son of Mary is indeed the prophet of God and His Word which He cast into Mary, and a spirit from Him."

Just curious, What does this mean to you?

To me it means simply this... that God cast the Word(Logos?) and the Spirit of Himself into Jesus to be born of Mary.

To put it another way... to break it down
Jesus is the Christ
Jesus the son of Mary
the prophet of God
who carries the Word of God and the Spirit of God within Him.

I think it is Muhammad who was confused and did not understand the word being given to him.
Muhammad was confused about God's Word... the scriptures.

* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn 


{ يٰأَهْلَ ٱلْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ إِلاَّ ٱلْحَقَّ إِنَّمَا ٱلْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ٱبْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَىٰ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِٱللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ ٱنتَهُواْ خَيْراً لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا ٱللَّهُ إِلَـٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَمَا فِي ٱلأَرْضِ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ وَكِيلاً }

O People of the Scripture, the Gospel, do not go to extremes, do not go beyond the bounds, in your religion and do not say about God except, the saying of, the truth, such as exalting Him above any associations with a partner or a child: the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word which He cast to, [which] He conveyed to, Mary, and a spirit, that is, one whose spirit is, from Him: he [Jesus] is here attached to God, exalted be He, as an honouring for him, and not as you claim, that he is the son of God, or a god alongside Him, or one of three, because one that possesses a spirit is compound, while God transcends being compound and the attribution of compounds to Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say, that the gods are, ‘Three’, God, Jesus and his mother. Refrain, from this and say what, it is better for you, [to say], which is the profession of His Oneness. Verily, God is but One God. Glory be to Him, transcending [the possibility], that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth, as possessions, creatures and servants, and such sovereignty is not compatible with [that] prophethood [of Jesus]. God suffices as a Guardian, a Witness to this.
IP IP Logged
Placid
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 November 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 231
Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 27 December 2012 at 1:59pm
Hi Caringheart,

Quote: surah 4:171
"The Christ Jesus son of Mary is indeed the prophet of God and His Word which He cast into Mary, and a spirit from Him."
Just curious, What does this mean to you?
To me it means simply this... that God cast the Word(Logos?) and the Spirit of Himself into Jesus to be born of Mary.

To put it another way... to break it down
Jesus is the Christ
Jesus the son of Mary
the prophet of God
who carries the Word of God and the Spirit of God within Him.

I think it is Muhammad who was confused and did not understand the word being given to him.
Muhammad was confused about God's Word... the scriptures.

Response: --- The Pickthall Translation says this in 4:
171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - God is only One God.

--- What it says to me is that some ‘trinitarians’ must have come to Muhammad and either asked him about Jesus, --- or they were telling him about Jesus.
(If this revelation was given to him through the angel Gabriel, then it is important to look at it, as it gives non-trinitarians a better understanding than what most of them have.)
--- He first said, “Don’t exaggerate the truth (perhaps about Jesus being God).
“The Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God (and not God, Himself) --- (But, being the Messiah, He was more than just a Messenger.)

--- 1 --- So, that is your first point, that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah.

Then it says Jesus, ‘the Messiah (who was the Manifestation of God, and was sent to earth in the form of a Servant), --- was the human Son of Mary.

--- 2 --- So your second point is that Jesus was the son of Mary.

And though He came as a Servant or Messenger of God, He was a Prophet of God.

--- 3 --- So your third point is that Jesus was the Prophet of God.

It goes on to say that Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of Mary was the Messenger of God, --- and His Word (Logos, the creative power of God) which God conveyed into Mary, --- and a Spirit from Him (God, which is the Holy Spirit).
--- So Jesus as a Servant, a Messenger, and a Prophet of God was the Manifestation of God in a human body, indwelt by the Word, and the Holy Spirit of God.

--- 4 --- So, this your fourth point, “who carries the Word of God and the Spirit of God within Him.”

So, basically, we agree with what Muhammad said, do we not?
But it goes on to say, “But believe in God and His messengers.” The immediate ones were Jesus and Muhammad to instruct humans, --- and the Ones mentioned, --- God (the Father), --- the Word, --- and the Holy Spirit.

BUT DON’T SAY THREE, (as a trinity) --- God is only One God.
--- Is this not what John said in 1 John 5:
7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, --- and these three are one,”

I believe that Muhammad said it right, so there is no way you can really accuse him of confusion is there, when he says the same as the NT?

--- The problem I see is that the Trinitarians like to over-exaggerate the position of Jesus when He came as a Servant, --- because they think of when He will come back as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

--- And Muslims like to under-exaggerate who Jesus was as a Prophet of God, by saying, “The Messiah was (no more than a messenger), as though He was JUST human, --- when the Scriptures teach that He had a human Body, but was indwelt by a Divine Spirit.
--- He could speak with the voice of man, but also with the Voice of God, through the Word, that indwelt Him

And have you looked at the next verse in Surah 4?:
172. The Messiah will never scorn (disdain) to be a slave (Servant) unto God, nor will the favoured angels.


Placid

IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 13 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com