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Interfaith Dialogue
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2012 at 10:04am
Hi Honeto,

Quote: Placid,
also looking at your first response in the post above you said:
"Response: --- The Prophets of the OT gave good seeds, but most of it fell on deaf ears, so, --- it IS exclusive to the New Testament that the Message of the Gospel or Injil was given, --- and it was made powerful through the Holy Spirit of God. "
Those seems to be just words without any material proof or meanings. How different it that in real term. The word of Gospel, powerful vs the words of Old Testament?

Response: --- Yes, I see that you are quite a discerning person to pick up on this, and ask why. --- I will gladly explain this to you in two posts, and I hope that you will understand what the Scriptures say from Jeremiah and Hebrews.

--- At the end, you can say, --- “That’s okay for you to believe, but it’s not for me.”
You see, I don’t argue these points but just show what the Scriptures say in their continuity from the OT to the NT.

Jeremiah’s Prophetic ministry was from 627-580 BC and because of the rebellious state of both Israel and Judah, God called him to warn them of the coming disasters.
A large part of Israel, the ten northern tribes, had been taken into captivity in Assyria, some 200 years before, and most of them were dispersed in that area, rather than returning to Israel. --- So now, Jeremiah was called to warn the southern two tribes of Judah to repent and return to God, or they too, would be taken into captivity

So God gave Jeremiah 10 sermons to preach to them. I will give some content from them, starting in Jeremiah 2:
5 Thus says the LORD, “What injustice have your fathers found in Me? That they have gone far from Me, have followed idols and become idolaters?”
6 Neither did they say, “Where is the LORD that brought us up out of the land of Egypt?”
8 The priests did not say, “Where is the LORD? And those who handled the law did not know Me.”
3:11 Then the LORD said to me, “Backsliding Israel has shown herself more righteous than treacherous Judah.”
4:14 “O Jerusalem, wash your hearts from wickedness, that you may be saved.”
18 “This is your wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reaches to your heart.”
5:7 “How shall I pardon you of this? Your children have forsaken Me and sworn by those who are not gods.
When I had fed them to the full then they committed adultery and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots’ houses.”
30 “An astonishing and horrible thing has been committed in the land
31 The prophets prophesy falsely and the priests rule by their own power, and My people love to have it so, --- but what will you do in the end?”

7:1 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah saying, “Stand in the gate of the LORD’s house and proclaim, “Hear the word of the LORD, all you of Judah who enter in at these gates to worship the Lord.”
8 “Behold you trust in lying words that cannot profit.
9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal and walk after other gods whom you do not know
10 and then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, ‘We are delivered to do all these abominations’?”
11 "Has this house which is called by My name become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen it,” says the LORD.
13 “And now, because you have done all these works,” says the LORD, “And I spoke to you, but you did not hear, and I called you, but you did not answer.”

--- The warnings go on for several more chapters, --- but they did not respond so, --- without God’s protection, --- Nebuchadnezzar invaded and carried them away in captivity to Babylon, --- about 600 BC.
(Enough for now).


Placid



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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2012 at 1:10am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Abu,

Quote: Re-read the Holy Qur'an and you will see that the whole reason for it's revelation is that both the Torah and the Injil are corrupted.


Response: --- can you show the verses that give this new revelation.
And can you list any new laws in the Quran, that are not in the former Scriptures, --- other than dietary laws, those on multiple marriages and their inheritances.
 
Salaam,
 
I'm surprised that you want quotes from the Holy Qur'an. You seem to indicate that you are an expert in Qur'anic verses.
 
Sahih International
 
So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. 2:79
 
Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do. 2:140
 
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful. 7:157
 
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2012 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Honeto,

Quote: Placid,
also looking at your first response in the post above you said:
"Response: --- The Prophets of the OT gave good seeds, but most of it fell on deaf ears, so, --- it IS exclusive to the New Testament that the Message of the Gospel or Injil was given, --- and it was made powerful through the Holy Spirit of God. "
Those seems to be just words without any material proof or meanings. How different it that in real term. The word of Gospel, powerful vs the words of Old Testament?

Response: --- Yes, I see that you are quite a discerning person to pick up on this, and ask why. --- I will gladly explain this to you in two posts, and I hope that you will understand what the Scriptures say from Jeremiah and Hebrews.

--- At the end, you can say, --- “That’s okay for you to believe, but it’s not for me.”
You see, I don’t argue these points but just show what the Scriptures say in their continuity from the OT to the NT.

Jeremiah’s Prophetic ministry was from 627-580 BC and because of the rebellious state of both Israel and Judah, God called him to warn them of the coming disasters.
A large part of Israel, the ten northern tribes, had been taken into captivity in Assyria, some 200 years before, and most of them were dispersed in that area, rather than returning to Israel. --- So now, Jeremiah was called to warn the southern two tribes of Judah to repent and return to God, or they too, would be taken into captivity

So God gave Jeremiah 10 sermons to preach to them. I will give some content from them, starting in Jeremiah 2:
5 Thus says the LORD, “What injustice have your fathers found in Me? That they have gone far from Me, have followed idols and become idolaters?”
6 Neither did they say, “Where is the LORD that brought us up out of the land of Egypt?”
8 The priests did not say, “Where is the LORD? And those who handled the law did not know Me.”
3:11 Then the LORD said to me, “Backsliding Israel has shown herself more righteous than treacherous Judah.”
4:14 “O Jerusalem, wash your hearts from wickedness, that you may be saved.”
18 “This is your wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reaches to your heart.”
5:7 “How shall I pardon you of this? Your children have forsaken Me and sworn by those who are not gods.
When I had fed them to the full then they committed adultery and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots’ houses.”
30 “An astonishing and horrible thing has been committed in the land
31 The prophets prophesy falsely and the priests rule by their own power, and My people love to have it so, --- but what will you do in the end?”

7:1 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah saying, “Stand in the gate of the LORD’s house and proclaim, “Hear the word of the LORD, all you of Judah who enter in at these gates to worship the Lord.”
8 “Behold you trust in lying words that cannot profit.
9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal and walk after other gods whom you do not know
10 and then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, ‘We are delivered to do all these abominations’?”
11 "Has this house which is called by My name become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen it,” says the LORD.
13 “And now, because you have done all these works,” says the LORD, “And I spoke to you, but you did not hear, and I called you, but you did not answer.”

--- The warnings go on for several more chapters, --- but they did not respond so, --- without God’s protection, --- Nebuchadnezzar invaded and carried them away in captivity to Babylon, --- about 600 BC.
(Enough for now).


Placid





Placid,
now you look confused. Just read please what I wrote, and what you replied with.
___"Placid writes,
"John 1 confirms that the Word (Logos) was with God in the beginning,:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

Honeto replied:
Question arises, if like many you are suggesting that somehow it refers to Jesus. If that is so why did they called him Jesus and not "Logos" if it was a name according to you. It does not make sense if someone has a name already, like you claim, how come his name is then changed. Did anyone mention in the OT that their is a person of God named "Logos" and his name will be changed, and he (that person of God) will come to the earth?
And if there were two or three persons of God in a Trinity as you believe where is that mentioned in the OT?
Did anyone before Jesus mentioned anything about such an important aspect of God, or they just forgot?
And please don't forget to answer my previous question."

Can you please read, and then reply. Thank you.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2012 at 8:04am
Hi Abu,

The verses you gave, --- in Surah 2:79 and verse 140, simply reveal that there were false teachers that wrote false sermons , or perhaps books for sale to make a profit. But that did not change the Scriptures any more than those today who write false books about the Bible and Quran (for a profit), --- have any effect upon the written Scriptures.

However, this third verse was believed long before Muhammad became a messenger of God, and is followed by upright believers in God --- and in what is good and right, is it not? --- It doesn’t teach division, prejudice, or war, does it?
--- “Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.” 7:157

--- Note: --- These words, ‘relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them.’ --- That speaks loudly of the Old Testament laws, which were done away with in the coming of Christ in the New Testament. ---And the ‘light’ given to Muhammad is found in Surah 42:
52 And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it (the revelation) a Light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen (servants).

--- The ones who believed this in the days of Moses were successful. --- The ones that followed this Message in the days of Jesus, --- (and even up to this day) are successful.
--- You see, the Message is the important part, not the Messenger, --- as the Quran says the messengers are all the same, “We make no distinction between them, but unto God we have surrendered.” 2:136, and 3:84.
--- (Those are verses you like to use when emphasizing that Jesus was ‘just a messenger’, --- but it applies to Muhammad as well, does it not?)

And here was the response of Christians to what Muhammad taught, in Surah 5:
82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
86 But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

--- This is what I find when I read the Quran, which should bring us closer together, should it not?
However, --- this was not a ‘new law’ in the Quran, --- and you will have to list the new laws, because in reading it, --- I haven’t found any.


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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2012 at 4:24pm
Greetings Hasan,
Aren't there 99 or more different names for God in the Qur'an, to represent different aspects of His nature?
Salaam,
CH
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2012 at 6:22pm
Hi Honeto,

I said I would answer the first question in two posts, --- then I will answer about the Logos. --- (My wife and family keep me busy as well, so I can’t keep up immediately in answering the questions.)
--- What I do is copy the questions into a document and then answer them in order, so it takes a little while, --- but be patient. This is the second post of the first question.

I listed in the first Post, some of the sins of the Jews, and how Jeremiah’s words and warnings fell on deaf ears, --- So, this is what God did about it, and it is prophesied in Jeremiah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

--- Notice: --- God said He would make a New Covenant, which is what the New Testament is. --- Notice, He said, “I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts.”

--- This is speaking of the Holy Spirit that would indwell them. John 14:
15: (Jesus said)   “If you love Me, keep My commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
--- At that time, the Holy Spirit was with them, indwelling the Person of Jesus, and the promise was that the same Holy Spirit would indwell them, --- which is what happened when they were filled with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2.

And to see the fulfillment of this prophecy, we go to Hebrews 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

--- So the New Covenant came with Jesus Christ and each person who repents and invites Jesus to be their Savior, can receive this Holy Spirit as a guide for their lives. --- It says this in 2 Peter 3:
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering (patient) toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
--- Notice this, --- in saying ‘God is not willing that any should perish,’ --- it is saying that ‘God’s will is that all should come to repentance, and be saved.”
--- But many, by their own choice, are perishing.


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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2012 at 4:35am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Abu,

The verses you gave, --- in Surah 2:79 and verse 140, simply reveal that there were false teachers that wrote false sermons , or perhaps books for sale to make a profit. But that did not change the Scriptures any more than those today who write false books about the Bible and Quran (for a profit), --- have any effect upon the written Scriptures.
 
Here is a tasfir (scholarly explanation) of 2:79
 
* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn 

{ فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ ٱلْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـٰذَا مِنْ عِنْدِ ٱللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ }

So woe, a severe chastisement, to those who write the Scripture with their hands, that is, fabricating it themselves, then say, ‘This is from God’ that they may sell it for a small price, of this world: these are the Jews, the ones that altered the description of the Prophet in the Torah, as well as the ‘stoning’ verse, and other details, and rewrote them in a way different from that in which they were revealed. So woe to them for what their hands have written, of fabrications, and woe to them for their earnings, by way of bribery (rishan, plural of rishwa).

However, this third verse was believed long before Muhammad became a messenger of God, and is followed by upright believers in God --- and in what is good and right, is it not? --- It doesn’t teach division, prejudice, or war, does it?
--- “Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.” 7:157

--- Note: --- These words, ‘relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them.’ --- That speaks loudly of the Old Testament laws, which were done away with in the coming of Christ in the New Testament. ---And the ‘light’ given to Muhammad is found in Surah 42:
52 And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it (the revelation) a Light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen (servants).
 
Tasfir for 7:157
 
* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn 

{ ٱلَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ ٱلرَّسُولَ ٱلنَّبِيَّ ٱلأُمِّيَّ ٱلَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوباً عِندَهُمْ فِي ٱلتَّوْرَاةِ وَٱلإِنْجِيلِ يَأْمُرُهُم بِٱلْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ ٱلْمُنْكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ ٱلطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ ٱلْخَبَآئِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَٱلأَغْلاَلَ ٱلَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ فَٱلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَٱتَّبَعُواْ ٱلنُّورَ ٱلَّذِيۤ أُنزِلَ مَعَهُ أُوْلَـٰئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْمُفْلِحُونَ }

those who follow the Messenger, the uninstructed Prophet, Muhammad (s) whom they will find inscribed in their Torah and Gospel, in name and description, enjoining them to decency and forbidding them indecency, making lawful for them the good things, which were forbidden [to them] by their Law, and making unlawful for them the vile things, such as carrion and the like, and relieving them of their burden, their onus, and the shackles, the hardships, that they used to bear, such as [the requirement] to kill oneself as a repentance and the severing of that part that had come into contact with any impurity. Then those who believe in him, from among them, and honour, revere, him, and help him, and follow the light that has been revealed with him, namely, the Qur’ān, they are the ones who will prosper’.

The rest is just the same old Christian gumph.
[/QUOTE]
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:05am
Hi Honeto,

(Just had to add this) --- About the New Covenant replacing the Old Covenant, --- the writer of Hebrews said, “Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Did you know that after the crucifixion, --- there was an earthquake, and the ‘veil of the Temple’ was torn from the top to the bottom, Matthew 27:51, --- and that there were no more animal sacrifices at the Temple? --- Nor have there been any since.

--- According to the teaching of the NT, --- either a person accepts the sacrifice of Jesus, --- or they have no redemption.
--- (And you can say to me, --- “That’s okay for you to believe, but it’s not for me.”)

You see, when the veil of the Temple was torn down, it opened the ‘Holy of Holies,’ so that all can enter the inner chamber, and pray anywhere directly to God, in Jesus’ name, --- because He is the New High Priest (after the order of Melchizedek), Hebrews 8:1.

While the emphasis is too often on the death of the sacrifice, Jesus had to go through death, to be “resurrected” in ‘new life’ being ‘born again’ Spiritually. --- and the Power is in the Resurrection, because “Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us.” Hebrews 7:25.
--- The Temple and the Old Covenant continued for another 40 years, till in 70 AD the Temple was destroyed by the Romans, --- and with it, all the family genealogies, so that from there on they could not accurately trace their lineage.

--- So after 70 AD, the city of Jerusalem remained, but the Temple, which had been the ‘Center of Worship,’ was no more. --- Jesus said in Matthew 23:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38 See! Your house is left to you desolate.

John had said of the old generation in John 12:
37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,
38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (Isaiah 53)
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.” --- (Because of their gross sins, the new Message fell on deaf ears. --- However, the new generation was enlightened by the Holy Spirit.)

42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue.

--- And this is the Conclusion, --- during the 40 years after the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, the Apostles and disciples went everywhere preaching and establishing local Churches. --- The Old Covenant was ended and the Temple was replaced by Local “Gospel Churches,” --- which became the New ‘Centers of Worship’ all around the ‘then known’ world.   


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