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Salaam_Erin
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Quote Salaam_Erin Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 1:16pm
The Romans persecuted the Christians up until the two religions merged.

The two religions did not merge when Christianity was legalised. In fact Roman religion was abolished in AD 390 by the Emperor Theodosius I.

Simply saying 'nope' in relation to Paul not changing the OT law is not an argument. Paul concerns himself with the New Covenant, which is different from the OT law. The OT law, Paul taught, leads us to Jesus.

Judas and Silas were indeed prophets, empowered by the Holy Spirit, and indeed Silas was co-author of some of Paul's Letters and co-author with Peter of 1 Peter.

I have a big problem with the Gospel of John. Somehow I just believe anything written in it, it seems like it was written expecially for and by Trinitarians. This Gospel stands out like a sore thumb.

John walked with Jesus and was the disciple whom He loved, His best friend. You're just not coping with Jewish Wisdom Theology and the concept of God as a Hypostatic Entity. Besides, what of Muslims who use the Gospel of John to 'prove' that Jesus said He was not God, and even slice Jesus' sayings apart and rip them out of context in order to justify this claim? It's not that different from the Synoptic Gospels- just look at how explicit Jesus gets with His Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath, can forgive sins sayings, and His proclamation under oath to the High Priest Caiaphas citing Daniel 7:14.

The Law is mentioned elsewhere in the Holy Qur'an. May be you should compare Shar'ia Law to the Mosaic Law, you will be surprised. The Law of God is important, surely, otherwise you will have lawlessness which is the weapon of satan. Therefore, godly law is protection from the satanic lawlessness. Compare lawlessmess in Chritianity where everything decays into chaos to the law of Judaism and Islam. This kind of situation gave rise to the 'anything goes' scenario where Christians think they can do anything and can get away with it.

Careful, Abu, Ancient Israel was constituted by God as a political entity. The Church is not. See Acts 1. The Church is a witness to Jesus and is to make disciples. Jesus in Heaven retains the political authority- to be enforced when He returns. Christianity is not lawless- never confuse Western secularism for Christianity. Christians don't think they can do anything and get away with it. Repentance is part and parcel of conversion to Christianity. The Law of Christ in the New Covenant contains the ethical laws of the Old Covenant. It's the sacrificial system of the Old Covenant which is not needed as it is fulfilled by the Cross.

So you are deviant Christian preaching a new gospel?

If the Logos and Spirit are 'servants' they are only so voluntarily as equal Hypostases to the Father coming from within Him to express His bidding to us on Earth. I hope this is what Placid means. Never confuse voluntary earthly subordinationalism with ontological equality.

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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 3:24pm
Placid,
also looking at your first response in the post above you said:
"Response: --- The Prophets of the OT gave good seeds, but most of it fell on deaf ears, so, --- it IS exclusive to the New Testament that the Message of the Gospel or Injil was given, --- and it was made powerful through the Holy Spirit of God. "
Those seems to be just words without any material proof or meanings. How different it that in real term. The word of Gospel, powerful vs the words of Old Testament? I see those who read and profess the words of OT NT and FT (Final Testament, the Quran) good bad and in between. It is the individual that makes the choice to be guided by God's guidance or reject it. Unless God open's a heart, none of them do any magic like you claim for NT. Can you prove you claim?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 26 November 2012 at 6:36pm
Hi Abu,

(I had said): --- The Word (Logos) and the Holy Spirit were really Servants of God, as was Jesus when He was on earth.
Quote: So you are deviant Christian preaching a new gospel?

No, only a Bible believing Christian.
Abu, you might be the first Muslim to understand what I’m saying, --- But it is not a new Gospel.
I have no argument with the Trinitarians. --- They believe as they do and I believe as I do. --- But we all believe in the Three in Heaven, as it says in 1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

Our understanding of the three in heaven, and how God has manifested Himself through them on earth does not affect our salvation, which comes through Faith in Jesus Christ, and the worship of God, --- as it says in Surah 3:
50 (Jesus said), I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."
--- (This is what we believe as Christians, and this is what we do.)
And the Quran says, “This is a Way that is straight.”
--- Is there a straighter Way for Christians?)

And four verses later, it says in Surah 3:
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
--- (And if God says “This is a Way that is straight, is it not the Way to be on?)
--- So this is not a ‘new’ Gospel, is it? --- Jesus said more than once “Follow Me.”

I will start to explain myself, but since you don’t like long posts, I will have to continue later.

--- Somebody said, “GOD is of Divine Essence which is above Personhood.” --- Therefore there can be no likeness of God, in all creation. --- Also John said “No one has seen God at any time.”
So GOD cannot be seen. --- And the Holy Spirit is present, but cannot be seen.
And the Word (Logos) cannot be seen either, --- but (I believe) He has been Manifested in different Personages to represent and ‘Reveal God’ to people on earth.
Consider these appearances: --- Melchizedek in Genesis 14:18, --- with an explanation in Hebrews 7: 1-3 --- and 3 says, “Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.”
As the LORD in Genesis 18:1, --- and as the Commander of the army of the LORD in Joshua 5:13-15. --- (And I believe, He was later called ‘the LORD of hosts.’)

And the fourth Man in the fiery furnace in Daniel 3:
25 “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
--- And finally. in His last Role as the indwelling Word (Logos) of God, in the Person of Jesus. John 1:
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

More later


Placid

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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2012 at 6:19am
(To continue)

John 1 confirms that the Word (Logos) was with God in the beginning,:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

--- God created, --- but through the Word (Logos).
So, you see, the Word (Logos) did not act on His own, but responded to the will of God. Consider Genesis 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

--- 1 God created --- (Notice the Three in these verses, --- 1 God --- 2 the Holy Spirit, --- and 3 the Word.)
--- 2 God’s Holy Spirit ‘hovered (brooded) over the deep (the waters),’ and brought life to the sea. --- (Do not scientists agree that life on Earth began in the sea?)
--- 3 God said, “Let there be light” --- so there was the active Word --- “Be,” to bring in the light. --- If all things were created ‘through the Word,’ --- then when God said, “Let there Be,” --- then the ‘creative Word (Logos)’ brought it into being.

As in Surah 19:35     It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
--- Or we can consider the verse which mentions the ‘Word’ in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
45 Hilali Khan: (Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."

While it is accurate to say that God ‘created’ all things, --- if He created them ‘through’ His Holy Spirit, and His Word (Logos), --- then They responded to His will, did they not?
--- When God said, “Let there be light,” --- then the Word (Logos) brought it into being. --- Does this not give the understanding that Almighty God was the Architect, --- and His Holy Spirit, and His Holy Word, brought His plans into being?

Therefore, --- does this not reveal that Almighty God was always “The Leader?”
--- And that the Holy Spirit and the Word (Logos) did not act on their own, but they always responded in harmony with God’s will.
--- So can we not say, --- that in this sense, --- The Word, and the Holy Spirit were “Servants” of God, to do His will?
--- So, if this is the case from the beginning, --- they were not “Co-equal” as the trinity doctrine said, is that not right?

Now Abu, if you don’t believe the OT and how it carries over into the NT and the Quran, then you will believe nothing of this. --- So that is okay for now, --- but you were questioning, so I am just responding with what God has given me to understand from the Scriptures. --- Others may not agree, but that is the blessing of our individuality, --- and to have the civility of discussion, to enlighten, --- or to be enlightened
(More later)


Placid

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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2012 at 1:21am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Abu,

(I had said): --- The Word (Logos) and the Holy Spirit were really Servants of God, as was Jesus when He was on earth.
Quote: So you are deviant Christian preaching a new gospel?

No, only a Bible believing Christian.
Abu, you might be the first Muslim to understand what I’m saying, --- But it is not a new Gospel.
I have no argument with the Trinitarians. --- They believe as they do and I believe as I do. --- But we all believe in the Three in Heaven, as it says in 1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

Our understanding of the three in heaven, and how God has manifested Himself through them on earth does not affect our salvation, which comes through Faith in Jesus Christ, and the worship of God, --- as it says in Surah 3:
50 (Jesus said), I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."
--- (This is what we believe as Christians, and this is what we do.)
And the Quran says, “This is a Way that is straight.”
--- Is there a straighter Way for Christians?)

And four verses later, it says in Surah 3:
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
--- (And if God says “This is a Way that is straight, is it not the Way to be on?)
--- So this is not a ‘new’ Gospel, is it? --- Jesus said more than once “Follow Me.”

I will start to explain myself, but since you don’t like long posts, I will have to continue later.

--- Somebody said, “GOD is of Divine Essence which is above Personhood.” --- Therefore there can be no likeness of God, in all creation. --- Also John said “No one has seen God at any time.”
So GOD cannot be seen. --- And the Holy Spirit is present, but cannot be seen.
And the Word (Logos) cannot be seen either, --- but (I believe) He has been Manifested in different Personages to represent and ‘Reveal God’ to people on earth.
Consider these appearances: --- Melchizedek in Genesis 14:18, --- with an explanation in Hebrews 7: 1-3 --- and 3 says, “Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.”
As the LORD in Genesis 18:1, --- and as the Commander of the army of the LORD in Joshua 5:13-15. --- (And I believe, He was later called ‘the LORD of hosts.’)

And the fourth Man in the fiery furnace in Daniel 3:
25 “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
--- And finally. in His last Role as the indwelling Word (Logos) of God, in the Person of Jesus. John 1:
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

More later


Placid

 
You are just deluding yourself with all these explanations of the Quadrinity. Why is it hard for you people to just believe in ONE GOD? Forget the son and the holy spirit which just does not make any sense. You are just burying yourself deeper and deeper with these explanations which are exclusive to ONLY you. You are also getting further away from the Christian teachings, some Christians will probably call you a heretic. Just give it up. Also stop using the Holy Qur'an to justify your st**idity.
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2012 at 1:28am
Originally posted by Placid

(To continue)

Now Abu, if you don’t believe the OT and how it carries over into the NT and the Quran, then you will believe nothing of this. --- So that is okay for now, --- but you were questioning, so I am just responding with what God has given me to understand from the Scriptures. --- Others may not agree, but that is the blessing of our individuality, --- and to have the civility of discussion, to enlighten, --- or to be enlightened
(More later)


Placid

 
I've deleted what you've written above as it is just pure rubish but I will respond to this.
 
Don't be deluded that the OT carries over into the NT and the Qur'an. Re-read the Holy Qur'an and you will see that the whole reason for it's revelation is that both the Torah and the Injil are corrupted. It's people like you who corrupt it with your own ideas and interpretations of it, then what happens is that you innovate. This is strictly forbidden in Islam.
 
If you are not careful you will start a new Christian cult pretty soon.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2012 at 10:58am
Placid writes,
"John 1 confirms that the Word (Logos) was with God in the beginning,:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."


Question arises, if like many you are suggesting that somehow it refers to Jesus. If that is so why did they called him Jesus and not "Logos" if it was a name according to you. It does not make sense if someone has a name already, like you claim, how come his name is then changed. Did anyone mention in the OT that their is a person of God named "Logos" and his name will be changed, and he (that person of God) will come to the earth?
And if there were two or three persons of God in a Trinity as you believe where is that mentioned in the OT?
Did anyone before Jesus mentioned anything about such an important aspect of God, or they just forgot?
And please don't forget to answer my previous question.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 29 November 2012 at 11:04am
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2012 at 8:13am
Hi Abu,

Quote: Re-read the Holy Qur'an and you will see that the whole reason for it's revelation is that both the Torah and the Injil are corrupted.


Response: --- can you show the verses that give this new revelation.
And can you list any new laws in the Quran, that are not in the former Scriptures, --- other than dietary laws, those on multiple marriages and their inheritances.
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