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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 17 November 2012 at 7:40am
Hi Abu,

The ministry of Jesus was totally different from the Jewish law in that He taught Love and Obedience as the requirements. --- And when the people came to Him in multitudes, He taught them many things in Parables.
--- A parable is really an earthly story with a heavenly meaning, --- or an easily understood story that has a Spiritual application.

Jesus often used common or local subjects to teach the 12 Apostles and then explain it, so that there would be 12 more teachers who could explain it to the multitudes. --- This was teaching the Apostles to be Leaders as well as Teachers.

This is a prophetic Parable that will involve all of us In Matthew 13:
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’
29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
--- He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


Placid

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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 17 November 2012 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Abu,

The ministry of Jesus was totally different from the Jewish law in that He taught Love and Obedience as the requirements. --- And when the people came to Him in multitudes, He taught them many things in Parables.
--- A parable is really an earthly story with a heavenly meaning, --- or an easily understood story that has a Spiritual application.

Jesus often used common or local subjects to teach the 12 Apostles and then explain it, so that there would be 12 more teachers who could explain it to the multitudes. --- This was teaching the Apostles to be Leaders as well as Teachers.

This is a prophetic Parable that will involve all of us In Matthew 13:
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’
29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
--- He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


Placid

 
I'm sorry but what has this got to do with this subject?
 
The parable you've quoted is simply saying that the wicked and the righteous will be judged at th End of Days.
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Placid
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 19 November 2012 at 6:56pm
Hi Abu,

I'm sorry but what has this got to do with this subject?
The parable you've quoted is simply saying that the wicked and the righteous will be judged at the End of Days.

Response: --- You are right, --- this parable has nothing to do with the OT Law, but rather concerns the present and the future from that point on. --- It starts with sowing the good seed, or the good Word.
And v37 says “He who sows the Good Seed is the Son of Man,” (that was Jesus), so what He was sowing could not have preceded Him could it?

--- And He said in this verse in John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

--- Therefore, Jesus was saying that salvation does not depends on any law, but on knowing and doing His word, --- and in believing and worshiping God who sent Jesus to represent Himself on earth.

--- And in Muhammad’s last ‘teaching’ message in Surah 9, he said:
18 He only shall tend Allah's sanctuaries who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due and feareth none save Allah. For such (only) is it possible that they can be of the rightly guided.
19 Count ye the slaking of a pilgrim's thirst and tendance of the Inviolable Place of Worship as (equal to the worth of) him who believeth in Allah and the Last Day, and striveth in the way of Allah? They are not equal in the sight of Allah. Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
20 Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant.
21 Their Lord giveth them good tidings of mercy from Him, and acceptance, and Gardens where enduring pleasure will be theirs;
22 There they will abide for ever. Lo! with Allah there is immense reward.

--- There is nothing about law there, is there?
And it says about the same for Christians in Surah 3:
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
57 "As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; but God loveth not those who do wrong."

Sher Ali: 55 Remember the time when ALLAH said' `O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to ME shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
--- I understand that in Arabic, the word, or words, --- refer to physical death, which is the separation of the body and spirit.

So it seems that acceptance with God involves Faith in Him, --- and that faith is expressed in doing ‘good works’ of love for others.


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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2012 at 2:46am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Abu,

Response: --- You are right, --- this parable has nothing to do with the OT Law, but rather concerns the present and the future from that point on. --- It starts with sowing the good seed, or the good Word.
And v37 says “He who sows the Good Seed is the Son of Man,” (that was Jesus), so what He was sowing could not have preceded Him could it?
Salaam,
I accept that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was sowing the good seed with his teaching, but that is not exclusive to Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) but to all the Prophets and Messengers of God because they all came with the good news of salvation for mankind. So all Prophets of God sowed the godd seeds.

--- And He said in this verse in John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

--- Therefore, Jesus was saying that salvation does not depends on any law, but on knowing and doing His word, --- and in believing and worshiping God who sent Jesus to represent Himself on earth.
I have a big problem with the Gospel of John. Somehow I just believe anything written in it, it seems like it was written expecially for and by Trinitarians. This Gospel stands out like a sore thumb.

--- And in Muhammad’s last ‘teaching’ message in Surah 9, he said:
18 He only shall tend Allah's sanctuaries who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due and feareth none save Allah. For such (only) is it possible that they can be of the rightly guided.
19 Count ye the slaking of a pilgrim's thirst and tendance of the Inviolable Place of Worship as (equal to the worth of) him who believeth in Allah and the Last Day, and striveth in the way of Allah? They are not equal in the sight of Allah. Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
20 Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant.
21 Their Lord giveth them good tidings of mercy from Him, and acceptance, and Gardens where enduring pleasure will be theirs;
22 There they will abide for ever. Lo! with Allah there is immense reward.
I don't understand the context. The verses that you've quoted are comparing believers to people who do works for show.


--- There is nothing about law there, is there?
And it says about the same for Christians in Surah 3:
55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
57 "As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; but God loveth not those who do wrong."

--- I understand that in Arabic, the word, or words, --- refer to physical death, which is the separation of the body and spirit.

So it seems that acceptance with God involves Faith in Him, --- and that faith is expressed in doing ‘good works’ of love for others.


Placid

 
The Law is mentioned elsewhere in the Holy Qur'an. May be you should compare Shar'ia Law to the Mosaic Law, you will be surprised.
 
The Law of God is important, surely, otherwise you will have lawlessness which is the weapon of satan. Therefore, godly law is protection from the satanic lawlessness. Compare lawlessmess in Chritianity where everything decays into chaos to the law of Judaism and Islam. This kind of situation gave rise to the 'anything goes' scenario where Christians think they can do anything and can get away with it.
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Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 22 November 2012 at 2:01pm
Hi Abu,

Quote: I accept that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was sowing the good seed with his teaching, but that is not exclusive to Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) but to all the Prophets and Messengers of God because they all came with the good news of salvation for mankind. So all Prophets of God sowed the godd seeds.

Response: --- The Prophets of the OT gave good seeds, but most of it fell on deaf ears, so, --- it IS exclusive to the New Testament that the Message of the Gospel or Injil was given, --- and it was made powerful through the Holy Spirit of God.

Quote: --- [Therefore, Jesus was saying that salvation does not depend on any law, but on knowing and doing His word, --- and in believing and worshiping God who sent Jesus to represent Himself on earth.]
I have a big problem with the Gospel of John. Somehow I just believe anything written in it, it seems like it was written expecially for and by Trinitarians. This Gospel stands out like a sore thumb.

Response: --- Did you mean to say you “don’t” believe anything written in it?
The words, trinity, and trinitarians, are not in the Gospel of John, --- neither is there a ‘doctrine of trinity’ in the NT. --- I have always said that the faulty ‘doctrine of trinity,’ which came out of a meeting in AD 325, --- came out of the faulty Church, not out of the Scriptures. --- But, a little clarity:
--- The Gospel of Matthew was written to the Jews.
--- The Gospel of Mark was written to the Romans.
--- The Gospel of Luke was written to the Greeks.
--- And the Gospel of John was written later with his knowledge of all the others, so he didn’t repeat the same events, but wrote a general Gospel that explains the power and working of the Holy Spirit, in relationship to Man’s salvation.

It may interest you to know that I don’t accept the trinity as it is generally taught in many Churches. It can’t really be explained and it is rarely mentioned other than as a tradition, --- as it has no significance in one’s salvation through Faith.

--- There is a statement made by John that is misunderstood, because it does not include Jesus the Son, --- but it says in I John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
--- This verse corresponds with the way the Gospel begins in John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him (the Word, Logos), and without Him nothing was made that was made.

---When they try to replace the ‘Creative power of God through the Word (Logos),’ --- with Jesus the Son, --- then they have Jesus, creating all things, --- which is faulty. --- The human Jesus, was born on earth, He lived on earth, and He died on earth. --- However, He was indwelt by the Word (Logos) and filled with the Holy Spirit, so He was God’s representative on earth.

I rather agree with What Muhammad said in this verse in Surah 4:
171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was an apostle (Messenger) of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him:

Notice: --- Jesus was the Messenger of God, --- and His Word, --- and a Spirit from Himself.
172. Christ will never scorn nor disdain to serve and worship God, nor do the angels, those nearest (to God).

--- The Word (Logos) and the Holy Spirit were really Servants of God, as was Jesus when He was on earth.

(More later on the other quotes.)


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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 23 November 2012 at 10:13am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Abu,


--- The Word (Logos) and the Holy Spirit were really Servants of God, as was Jesus when He was on earth.

(More later on the other quotes.)


Placid

 
So you are deviant Christian preaching a new gospel?
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 23 November 2012 at 12:11pm
Greetings Abu,

Placid and I do not agree on trinity teaching.  This is not an uncommon thing.  I do not see him as deviant.  Just as Shia and Sunni do not agree on all teaching.  God's Word is always subject to interpretation.  This is why we each must be free to find our own way.  Only God can lead, not man.

Regarding an earlier comment of yours...
the only place I see chaos in the world is in the Islamic regions... however, there is not chaos in Iran is there? or in Saudi Arabia, or Malaysia?  This has more to do with leadership.

Salaam,
CH
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Quote Salaam_Erin Replybullet Posted: 24 November 2012 at 1:01pm
The torah is the book of Moses (pbuh) as confirmed by the Holy Qur'an. Jesus (pbuh) only used what was authentic text as he knew what was real and what was forged.

And how do you know what was 'forged'? Jesus never preached EVER that the Torah was forged. Your only chance is Jeremiah 8:8 and that was a forgery by syncretist priests justifying YHWH as a fertility god with Asherah as his consort. This fake Bible was exposed as such by the rediscovery of the true Torah in 621 BC in the Temple, long before Jeremiah preached against the disobedient priests. Not a single copy of this fake Torah exists anymore. Presumably it was lost once the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 587 BC. The true Torah's preservation was made possible by the rediscovery of the the true Torah in 621 BC which was presumably hidden during the persecution of the YHWH Only Movement (those of the true Faith) by King Manasseh. Also, Jeremiah and his secretary Baruch, and the scribal tribe of the Recabites preserved the true Bible in the Holy Land, while many faithful priests such as the Prophet Ezekiel and the likes of the Prophet Daniel kept true copies of the Torah in Babylon. They had been deported there in 597 BC, and so the true Torah was preserved. It was from Babylon that Ezra the priest and scribe brought copies of the Torah and he founded the excellent proto-Massoretic Babylonian Text which was the basis of the Massoretic Text from AD 500-1000. This was already seen to be the best Hebrew text amongst the Essenes who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls from around 150 BC onwards and Queen Salome Alexandra who in 70 BC ordered more copies of the Torah to be brought from Babylon to Jerusalem, Babylon having a leading and influential Jewish community. The issues concerning Judaism in the 1st century AD were totally different from those concerning Jeremiah in the 6th century BC and controversies over texts did not exist. When Jesus debated with the Pharisees, He fully expected them to have the same Torah He did.    
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