Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: CHRISTIANS - Answer this Question Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 13 Next >>
Author Message
Matt Browne
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 April 2010
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 825
Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2012 at 5:54am
Paul relied on Jesus, who said: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
IP IP Logged
honeto
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 March 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2397
Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2012 at 2:56pm
And what does that mean, "did not come to abolish, but to fulfill?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
IP IP Logged
Experiential
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 23 November 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 311
Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2012 at 3:31pm
[
 
Very nice quotes from the Bible indeed but you haven't answered the question.
[/QUOTE]

Your question was how Paul changed the Mosaic law or Old covenant. From above it is obvious it was Jesus who first heralded in the new Covenant. Not Paul.



Edited by Experiential - 01 November 2012 at 10:28pm
IP IP Logged
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1922
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2012 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Paul didn't change the Mosaic Law.  The key to understanding Paul's thinking lies in 3 areas.  One, the Torah and the Hebrew Bible generally say that salvation is by faith.  It does say that if anyone obeys the Torah they will live, but nobody can do that is they  are not righteous, so the sacrificial system for sin was brought in to deal with that.  So Paul cites Genesis 15:6 where Abraham believing the LORD as credited to him as righteousness, the just shall live by faith, that's from Habakkuk 2:4, and Joel 2:32 "He who calls upon the name of the LORD shall be saved."  So while obeying the Torah is important, it cannot save.  Faith and God's mercy saves. 

Two, Paul was mostly writing to Gentiles.  Peter was the first to lead a Gentile to faith in Jesus, namely Cornelius the Roman centurion.  The question emerged, did the Gentile believers need to be converted to Judaism and be circumcised?  Many Jewish believers in Jesus said that they did, which is weird as Jesus never taught this but praised the faith of those Gentiles who trusted in Him.  Paul gave his answer in Galatians.  The answer being no.  Then the Council of Jerusalem met and in Acts 15 we see Peter saying no, Paul and Barnabas gave a missionary report then James, Jesus' brother, a Pharisee, the man who said if you break one law, you break them all, decreed that Gentiles did not need to convert to Judaism but must not eat food sacrificed to idols, from sexual immorality, the meat of strangled animals, and from eating blood.  James then appointed Paul and Barnabas as the enforcers of this.  James also decreed for Moses has been preached in every city from earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.  (Acts 15:21)

So Jewish believers in Jesus remain Jewish, and Gentile believers in Jesus remain Gentile.

This is what Paul taught.  Read 1 Corinthians 7:18  In verse 19 he actually says that circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing.  It's keeping the commandments that counts.  And what we find in the Bible then is that apart from Abraham and Ishmael and their servants from the very beginning of circumcision, circumcision is for Hebrews/Israelites/Jes (funny thing is, Ishmael, son of Abraham, father of the Arabs, counts as a Hebrew, but not as an Israelite), and circumcision is NOT for Gentiles.  The Old Covenant, superseded but not abolished, is to do with the Land of Israel, and the Israelites, and circumcision is in it, as with the covenant of Abraham.  But the Gentiles post-Abraham are NOT to be circumcised.  Gentiles are not physically descended from Abraham and the New covenant alone is relevant to them, not the older covenants.  However, Paul teaches that the Torah points to Jesus who is the end, the telos, the destination of the Law.  The part of the torah which is abolished, or rather brought to a climax, is the sacrificial system, as Jesus is the final sacrifice.  The Passover Lamb, Paul taught. (1 Corinthians 5:7-8)  This shows that the Passover was still celebrated, but now done every time the Church met and not just once a year, with the Lord's Supper slotted in, as Jesus did (see 1 Corinthians 11), and opened out for Gentiles to partake and not need circumcision and conversion to Mosaic Yahwism/Judaism as before.   The New Covenant, cited by an earlier contributor on this thread is relevant, as it is a covenant NOT like the one God gave to the Israelites when they came out of Egypt, for the Israelites could not keep that covenant.   So God will take that New Covenant, that different Covenant, and place it in their hearts.  Moses spoke in Deuteronomy of the Israelites needing God to circumcise their hearts, Paul takes up this concept.  The key to understanding Paul's nuanced view of the Law is to understand that he sees the Torah as a paedagogos to lead us to Christ, that it is spiritual (Romans 7) but we are sinners needing rescuing by Christ.  Also, we are under a curse of the Law because of our sin.  One, God cursed the ground when Adam and Eve sinned, that's for Gentiles as well as Israelites, while curses were also imposed on the Israelites in the Mosaic Covenant for disobedience (carried out by God in 721 BC and 587 BC and AD 70 when He inflicted judgement on Israel and Judah and Judaea in the Roman era; see Deuteronomy 27 and 28).  Jesus' death removed that curse provided we repent of our sin, Paul taught.  The other key is when Paul says "To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law).  Pauol understood that the Ten Commandments were under Christ's law.  Jesus said He came to FULFIL the Torah.  Paul understood what that meant.  He says we are saved not by merit, but by God's grace but then are predestined by God to do good works which He has prepared for us.  Ephesians 2:8-10.  The key is to understand what Jesus meant by fulfilling the Torah.  It is clear that in Paul's thinking, Jews remain Jews, Gentiles remain Gentiles, the New Covenant must be accepted by everyone to get into Heaven, Jesus' death covers this, the Torah shows us we are sinners, and what right and wrong is, the old Torah regime is over, but the Torah is a disciplinarian to lead us to Jesus, and is still spiritual and valuable to expose our sin and call on God's mercy and guide us in terms of how we obey God after salvation.  I hope this helps.  
 
 
This doesn't help at all unfortunately, this is just re-gurgetating of the same ole Christian doctrine which Christians keep repeating over and over again like a parrot.


Greetings Abu Loren,

I have to wonder did you even read?  Because I did and I found some things new in it.  Every response I read usually has a slightly different perspective and something to bring to the discussion.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 01 November 2012 at 4:01pm
IP IP Logged
Experiential
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 23 November 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 311
Quote Experiential Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2012 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential

 

The prophet Jeremiah talks about the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:33.

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

Jesus took the cup of wine and said, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”

Luke 22:20.

 

With Jesus' birth, life, death, and resurrection the Old Covenant was fulfilled and a new covenant was instituted.

 

The Injil says, “At the moment of Jesus' death on the cross, states that the veil (separating the entrance to the holy of holies) of the Temple was ripped from top to bottom, symbolizing that with Jesus death there was no longer a need for the temple.”

Matthew 27:51

 
Very nice quotes from the Bible indeed but you haven't answered the question.

Your question was how Paul changed the Mosaic law or Old covenant. From above it is obvious it was Jesus who first heralded in the new Covenant. Not Paul.

 

 

 

IP IP Logged
Abu Loren
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 981
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2012 at 2:58am
Originally posted by Experiential

 

The prophet Jeremiah talks about the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:33.

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Oh really? If you read chapter 31 properly God is talking about a new covenent with the Children of Israel, it does say that this new covenent will be with Jesus (pbuh).

Oh dear look at verse 30...
31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Everyone is accountable for his own sins and noone else can atone for your sins unless you repent to God and ask forgiveness.
 
Also to get the correct context you must read verse 31 & 32 put together it looks like this...
 
31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 
Again this new covenent is not specifically for Jesus (pbuh). All Prophets of God had a covenent with Him, Abraham (pbuh) had covenent, Moses (pbuh) had a covenent and the final covenent with Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).

Originally posted by Experiential

 

Jesus took the cup of wine and said, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”

Luke 22:20. 

This was added much later.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

With Jesus' birth, life, death, and resurrection the Old Covenant was fulfilled and a new covenant was instituted. 

Who says?

 

Originally posted by Experiential

The Injil says, “At the moment of Jesus' death on the cross, states that the veil (separating the entrance to the holy of holies) of the Temple was ripped from top to bottom, symbolizing that with Jesus death there was no longer a need for the temple.”

Matthew 27:51

 
Another later addition as Jesus (pbuh) was not killed. Also verse 52 confirms that this was a lie.
 
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
 
 Although Jesus (pbuh) brought one or two people back from the dead with th epermission of God, there is only one RESURRECTION at the end of time. Only God knows the hour, if Jesus (pbuh) was part of the Trunity then he would also have known the hour.
 


Edited by Abu Loren - 02 November 2012 at 12:40pm
IP IP Logged
Placid
Male Christian
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 01 November 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 231
Quote Placid Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2012 at 5:13am
Hi Abu,

Concerning the Law of Moses, Jesus said in Matthew 5:
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.’
--- He re-introduced the law of love which is the fulfilling of the Law. And after Judas had left the group, Jesus said to the 11 Apostles, in John 13:
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

--- So it was not Paul, nor James, that did away with the law, but Jesus --- because it had become ineffective.
It says again in Luke 16:
14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
--- It says this in John 1:
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. --- (So the law was in effect from the days of Moses till the days of John the Baptist.)

This is what Paul said about the Jews in Romans 10:
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

And here is what it means. --- As mentioned above in Jeremiah 31:31-34, it mentions a New Covenant, and it is fulfilled in Hebrews 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Placid

IP IP Logged
Abu Loren
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 981
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 03 November 2012 at 3:25am
Originally posted by Placid

Hi Abu,

Concerning the Law of Moses, Jesus said in Matthew 5:
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.’
--- He re-introduced the law of love which is the fulfilling of the Law. And after Judas had left the group, Jesus said to the 11 Apostles, in John 13:
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

--- So it was not Paul, nor James, that did away with the law, but Jesus --- because it had become ineffective.
It says again in Luke 16:
14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
--- It says this in John 1:
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. --- (So the law was in effect from the days of Moses till the days of John the Baptist.)

This is what Paul said about the Jews in Romans 10:
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

And here is what it means. --- As mentioned above in Jeremiah 31:31-34, it mentions a New Covenant, and it is fulfilled in Hebrews 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Placid

 
Ok so are you a placid person or do you live near Lake Placid?
 
Let's go through your post point by point so we are on the same page.
 
Concerning the Law of Moses, Jesus said in Matthew 5:
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.’
--- He re-introduced the law of love which is the fulfilling of the Law. And after Judas had left the group, Jesus said to the 11 Apostles, in John 13:
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
 
OK verse 5:7 is crystal clear in the English language. So who destroyed the Law?
 
John 13:34-35 you are automatically thinking that he is god. A new commandment is not replacing the Law of Moses (pbuh) but he just says that people should love one another. He did not advocate any change in the Law nor a new covenent.
 
--- So it was not Paul, nor James, that did away with the law, but Jesus --- because it had become ineffective.
It says again in Luke 16:
14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
--- It says this in John 1:
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. --- (So the law was in effect from the days of Moses till the days of John the Baptist.)
 
If you had kept reading Luke 16 it says in verse 17..
 
16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
 
With regard to John:17 it can be interpreted as that verse was inserted much later by pro Jesus the god trinitarian activists. It just does not make sense with the context of the chapter.
 
This is what Paul said about the Jews in Romans 10:
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Nobody should take Paul seriously  because he did not intent for his LETTERS to be included in any canonical work. They were just LETTERS that he wrote to these different church communities who decided to follow the Trinitarian line. Paul had a nervous breakdown after he persecuted and killed thousands of Christians and had a guilty feeling and became a Christian himself. Who is Paul to say the Christ is the end of the Law? The Law can only be abolished by God Alimighty.
 
And here is what it means. --- As mentioned above in Jeremiah 31:31-34, it mentions a New Covenant, and it is fulfilled in Hebrews 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
 

Fine. Paul is quoting Jeremiah so what? Who is he to say that Jesus (pbuh) set up the New Covenent? Any new covenents must come from God Almighty. This is fine if you believe that Jesus (pbuh) was the son of or god incarnate.

Everything falls down flat I'm afraid. You must take Paul out of the equation, don't believe anything he says. His letters are just his opinions poured out to the new churches and which somebody decided to include in the new Christian canonical works. Now bring in the early church fathers like Iraneus and ask him why he specifically chose these gospels and letters of Paul and left out all of the other gospels such as Peter, Mary, Judas, Thomas etc etc et.
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 13 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com