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Originally posted by nospam001

Thanks, I really think we're making progress now.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

He acted in 'secret' because he was allowed to do anything he wanted to...
Does the Qur'an actually say that, and if so is it in S33:50 or somewhere else?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Explain to us the contradiction you keep talking about, the earlier understanding or promise.
'Ubaid bin 'Umair narrated from 'Aishah, the wife of the Prophet:
"...He said: 'No, rather I drank honey at the house of Zainab bint Jahsh, but I will never do it again'..." 
Sunan-an-Nasa'i
English reference : Vol. 4, Book 27, Hadith 3450 
Arabic reference : Book 27, Hadith 3434 
Wasn't the husband later observed doing something contrary, in secret before any retraction was uttered to his other wives? How else does one explain their behaviour, upon hearing about the secret?
 Clearly their reaction, whatever it was, was wrong enough to deserve a severe rebuke from Allah() Himself.  Would a devoted wife ever do such things supposing she had been fully informed, in advance? 

(Let us suppose, for now, that the quotation above is the most reliable of all hadiths relating to this sura; i.e., 'something contrary' simply means 'drinking honey at a particular place'.)

Why don't you stop beating around the bush and ask clear and concise questions so we can answer them in the same way?

Are you saying that the Prophet (pbuh) went back to drinking honey with his wife Zainab after he said he would not?

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Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 09 November 2012 at 1:23am
	*Originally posted by nospam001* Thanks, I really think we're making progress now. *Originally posted by Abu Loren* He acted in 'secret' because he was allowed to do anything he wanted to... Does the Qur'an actually say that, and if so is it in S33:50 or somewhere else? *Originally posted by Abu Loren* Explain to us the contradiction you keep talking about, the earlier understanding or promise. 'Ubaid bin 'Umair narrated from 'Aishah, the wife of the Prophet: "...He said: 'No, rather I drank honey at the house of Zainab bint Jahsh, but I will never do it again'..." Sunan-an-Nasa'i English reference : Vol. 4, Book 27, Hadith 3450 Arabic reference : Book 27, Hadith 3434 Wasn't the husband later observed doing something contrary, in secret before any retraction was uttered to his other wives? How else does one explain their behaviour, upon hearing about the secret? Clearly their reaction, whatever it was, was wrong enough to deserve a severe rebuke from Allah() Himself. Would a devoted wife ever do such things supposing she had been fully informed, in advance? (Let us suppose, for now, that the quotation above is the most reliable of all hadiths relating to this sura; i.e., 'something contrary' simply means 'drinking honey at a particular place'.) Why don't you stop beating around the bush and ask clear and concise questions so we can answer them in the same way? Are you saying that the Prophet (pbuh) went back to drinking honey with his wife Zainab after he said he would not?
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 09 November 2012 at 1:37pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* Why don't you stop beating around the bush and ask clear and concise questions so we can answer them in the same way? Abstract concepts are hard to avoid in matters of principle. Allowing for that, I think my questions are already pretty clear and concise. If you could take the time to highlight which bits are still ambiguous or confusing I will try restating them. *Originally posted by Abu Loren* Are you saying that the Prophet (pbuh) went back to drinking honey with his wife Zainab after he said he would not? Yes. Assuming we stick to the 'honey pot' scenario, of course. [No pun intended.] Furthermore, he did not try to retract/clarify the 'promise' or explain his actions. Not until after his other wives had already found out for themselves - and reacted accordingly. I am not so concerned with his behaviour (he was human after all), rather with how the Qur'an 'turns a blind eye' to those actions, which at face value seem far from exemplary. Obviously, being a non-Muslim, I have been applying the same ethical standards as I would for any husband, including my own future sons-in-law. It has been stated several times in this thread that the Prophet() enjoyed absolute moral freedom, but so far this has not been backed up with any verse or other authority. On closer inspection S33:50 only appears to grant certain conjugal privileges.
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 11 November 2012 at 1:55am
	*Originally posted by nospam001* Yes. Assuming we stick to the 'honey pot' scenario, of course. [No pun intended.] Provide your proof that the Prophet (pbuh) went back to Zainab secretly drinking honey.
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nospam001 Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 02 October 2012 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Posted: 11 November 2012 at 1:52pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* Provide your proof that the Prophet (pbuh) went back to Zainab secretly drinking honey. What forms of evidence would you accept? Supposing a hadith can count as 'proof', then which specific collections would you say are 'sufficiently reliable'?
	God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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