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Message Icon Topic: Everyone must watch this video.. Post Reply Post New Topic
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schmikbob
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Quote schmikbob Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2012 at 6:00pm
Both your questions have been answered, multiple times.  You simply do not wish to accept the answers.  So be it.  I suspect that another time answering them will not satisfy you either but here goes.
 
1.  Building 7 did not come down "just like a perfect demolition" or "just because of fire".  Building 7 was nailed by one of the collapsing twin towers.  There are many pictures of the gaping holes in it's side as a result.  These were not caused by fire as much as you would like it to be so.
 
2. Steel does not have to melt for system failure to occur.  Steel loses over half it's strength at half it's melting point.
 
Neither of these answers is a "belief".  Seriously Honeto, you at least ought to do a little research before you simply repeat what you've heard others tell you.
    
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2012 at 6:40pm

Originally posted by honeto

I thought of you as a person of reason and of one who sticks to facts and truth. I am disappointed. You somehow give me impression that you know more than the facts out there, do you? or simply you just have a belief and nothing can change it, neither facts nor even science.

I'm open to any facts you would care to present, but so far all you've offered me is rhetorical questions and unfounded speculations.

1- Why was all the steel sent overseas to melt as it was picked up? Why was it not stored (even in an open land somewhere) because it was material from a crime scene. Why it was not treated as such?

Store it where?  According to historycommons.org, we're talking about "more than 108,000 truckloads of debris, comprising 1.8 million tons of steel and concrete".  And remember, this is the epicenter of some of the most valuable real estate on the planet.  Who is going to pay for the storage, not to mention the transport?

You fail to give a satisfying answer to a valid question, and I hate to see your belief shaken that yes it is true that the protocol was not followed in this case and why?

I'm not sure what "protocol" you're referring to.  I've never heard of an entire building, or the rubble thereof, being impounded for months.  Did anything like that happen with the Oklahoma City bombing, for instance?

About melting steel, it is pure science. All you have to do is to see when steel is soft, and at what temperature it can bend or melt. For some odd reason your theory does not match with science. That is the kind of issue the scientists in this video discuss, you refuse to know that fact or answer. Rather you take the naive approach, where it suits you.

Forget "melting steel".  It was a poor choice of words on my part.  And yes, the fires were plenty hot enough to soften steel - but that wasn't the only effect of the high temperatures:

"It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425C and loses about half of its strength at 650C. This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650C fire.
 
"The additional problem was distortion of the steel in the fire. The temperature of the fire was not uniform everywhere, and the temperature on the outside of the box columns was clearly lower than on the side facing the fire. The temperature along the 18 m long joists was certainly not uniform. Given the thermal expansion of steel, a 150C temperature difference from one location to another will produce yield-level residual stresses. This produced distortions in the slender structural steel, which resulted in buckling failures. Thus, the failure of the steel was due to two factors: loss of strength due to the temperature of the fire, and loss of structural integrity due to distortion of the steel from the non-uniform temperatures in the fire."
 
 
Firefighters in this video talk also about explosions before building crumbled to the ground. So it is important to listen to all the conversation, and not cut it where is goes against your belief. Why are people afraid of the truth?

Loud noises are often described as explosions.  You wouldn't expect buildings of this size to collapse quietly, would you?

You mentioned you cannot find a similar case in response to my question. You added, "how many buildings are struck by a plane". There shows your lack of paying attention because you fear it will shake your belief. I never mentioned that building 7 was ever struck by a plane. My question was, in case of fire, how may times a building has fallen to the ground like this one? Oops!

Okay, how many high-rise buildings have been abandoned by firefighters and left to burn for more than six hours?

You have not provided me credentials of experts, but I have, in that video you can see who is who pretty clear.

Name one.  Which of these experts do you find most convincing?

Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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schmikbob
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Quote schmikbob Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2012 at 6:59pm
Forget it, all Honeto is going to do is pose more rhetorical questions.  He's not going to answer your requests to be specific or agree with anything you say.  He has the answer he's looking for and is working backwards.  How can I force my round evidence into this square conspiracy I want it to fit?
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2012 at 9:35pm
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2012 at 9:51am
Originally posted by schmikbob

Forget it, all Honeto is going to do is pose more rhetorical questions. He's not going to answer your requests to be specific or agree with anything you say. He has the answer he's looking for and is working backwards. How can I force my round evidence into this square conspiracyI want it to fit?

Ron and Schmikbob,
I never said I have the answers. In case you missed I said I have questions, and you two are simply denying and refusing to hear those questions. You have also failed to scientifically prove your beliefs. You remember Oklahoma City bombing, a huge bomb, fire, still the structure was still there. Wow, that's a big one. But if you two are not ready for some logical questions, that's OK.
All I am saying is that I refuse to accept spoon fed conclusions prepared by "paid experts". It is logical to find out with the help of really independent experts what had really happen.
What you doing is as if denying yourself a chance to see the whole picture by refusing to see it with both eyes. You rather see it with just one eye, that's your choice. I want to see it with both eyes, you have a problem with that?
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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schmikbob
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Quote schmikbob Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2012 at 3:46pm
Honeto, actually what is going on is you refusing to even acknowledge answers to your questions.  You just keep on posing them again and again as if nobody addressed them.  That's the mark of someone with an agenda and someone that doesn't care to have a discussion.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2012 at 5:19pm

Originally posted by honeto

I never said I have the answers. In case you missed I said I have questions, and you two are simply denying and refusing to hear those questions.

I think you're refusing to hear the answers, Hasan.  Let me summarize the answers I've given you so far:

  1. There was no unusual stock trading activity, according to the 9/11 Commission.  If you know differently, you'll need to be more specific.
  2. The Israeli Prime Minister cancelled his visit after 9/11, not before.
  3. There was no undue haste in disposing of the rubble from the buildings, and no "protocol" was violated in doing so.  The cleanup from the Oklahoma City bombing was much faster, and I didn't hear accusations of cover-up.
  4. A "perfect demolition" does not begin as a raging inferno that burns for six hours in multiple areas of the building.  Moreover, the firefighters on the scene did not see a structurally sound building just waiting for the charges to detonate, as they would in a demolition.  They saw a severely weakened frame that was ready to fall at any moment without the need for any intervention.
    The only sense in which it resembled a demolition is that the building fell down -- just as it would in the case of "total progressive collapse".  I'm not sure why you find that surprising.  What direction would you expect it to fall? Tongue
  5. I don't know of another high-rise fire that resulted in total building collapse, but then I don't know of a similar building that was left to burn for six hours either.  The situation was literally unprecedented.  One shouldn't be surprised not to find similar examples.
  6. The collapse of a huge building is necessarily a noisy event.   I'm not surprised that it might sound like a series of explosions.  For that matter, there probably were plenty of actual explosions of fuel tanks, compressed gas cylinders, etc.
You also seem to be refusing to hear my question: given that the planes were crashed into the Twin Towers, why would the conspirators plant explosives in Building 7?  What was the point in furnishing this (according to you) clear evidence that there was a conspiracy going on?  Even worse, what if Building 7 hadn't caught fire?  Surely they couldn't have planned exactly where burning debris from the impact would fall.  Wouldn't the sudden collapse of a totally undamaged building have been a dead giveaway?


You have also failed to scientifically prove your beliefs. You remember Oklahoma City bombing, a huge bomb, fire, still the structure was still there.

I do remember the Oklahoma City bombing, but I don't recall any significant fire.



Edited by Ron Webb - 06 October 2012 at 5:29pm
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2012 at 6:30pm
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