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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by honeto

Kish,
....and that misinterpretation is ??
and what is this mistreatment of Isaac by Ishmael, from where do you get that?
Hasan


I can answer in part;

And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.

10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.  (the book of Genesis)

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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:53pm
Assalamu alaikum.

I always call for commonsense and reasoning prevail in this forum. There is no need turning us as unintelligent folks and driven to hair splitting arguments.
Isaac was born when Ishmael was 16 years or so. It shows that Ishmael was also in Palestine then and not in Makka. This was the moment Ishmael was driven away. At sixteen years old his mother left him looking for water. The child was crying etc. Nobody question this. If actually both are normal human beings and behaved as we behave today, I have never seen in our society where mocking between brothers do not take place.
If this is odd in today's Western Christian culture, I am sure it is not so in the then Jewish Muslim culture.

Friendship.
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Quote 786SalamKhan Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2013 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Kish



Did Ishmael submit to God’s will? No. He did not follow the God of Abraham, the God his father served. Can you show me where Ishmael submitted to God that would help me a lot?

Can you show me where he did not? That would help.

Originally posted by Kish


“I (Jesus) set the pattern for you.” (John 13:15) Not Muhammad!

“Continue following me.” (John 21:19) Not Muhammad!

“All authority* has been given me in heaven and on the earth. (Matt 28:18) Not Muhammad!

(Matt 10:5-6)--- Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


(Matthew 15:24) He (Jesus) replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

In John 16: 12 & 13, Jesus says:

“I have yet many things to say unto you,

but you cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the spirit of truth, is come,

He will guide you into all truth; ”

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/201/
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/198/ Allah knows best.
Originally posted by Kish



Say: "People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel [Injil], and what was sent down to you from your Lord." ... S. 5:68 Arberry

Say (O Muhammad SAW)] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt. S. 6:114 Al-Hilali & Khan

Even your Quran openly acknowledges the important of obeying the Injil (Gospel) and Muslims are telling people not to, wow!

Narrated Ubaidullah:  "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!'  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)

The Quran only says to believe in the (original) previous scriptures that were sent to the Prophets of old.
Originally posted by Kish


I agree because Muhammad earlier followers believed the Injil It was only until Ibn-Khazem in 1064 made the accusation against the corruption of the Scriptures without any historical facts to prove it.

http://thedebateinitiative.com/2011/03/29/where-are-the-original-torah-and-gospel/

Originally posted by Kish


Ps. 83:2, 6 For, look! your very enemies (Ish′ma•el•ites ) are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head. . . the Ish′ma•el•ites!!!

Because of Ishmael’s dismissal and hatred for Isaac, his heart became harden, that is why even today there is still great animosity between Arabs and Israelis, this hatred was handed down to his descendants. 



"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?(Jeremiah 8:8)
Also it says Ishmaelites but not Ishmael himself, Israel didn't even exist during Ishmael's life.
Originally posted by Kish


First and foremost, Allah is nowhere associated with the children of Israel, not even Ishmael or Hagar. The first to associate Allah with the children of Israel was only Muhammad, not the prophets of the Holy Scriptures.

Allah literally mean "God" in arabic, the Arab Jews and Christians before Muhammad already used this. And who or what exactly is "Yahweh" and/or "Jehovah"? That's just a Christian transliteration of how the Tetragrammaton would supposedly sound or be read even though it is forbidden. The Jews who speak Hebrew call G-d "Elohim", "Eloah" or "El Shaddai" and Jesus who spoke aramaic would have called him "Alaha" both similar to "Allah".
And Allah knows best.



Edited by 786SalamKhan - 18 January 2013 at 1:34pm
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2013 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.
I always call for commonsense and reasoning prevail in this forum. There is no need turning us as unintelligent folks and driven to hair splitting arguments.

Hear, hear.  I agree.

Originally posted by Friendship

Isaac was born when Ishmael was 16 years or so. It shows that Ishmael was also in Palestine then and not in Makka. This was the moment Ishmael was driven away. At sixteen years old his mother left him looking for water. The child was crying etc. Nobody question this. If actually both are normal human beings and behaved as we behave today, I have never seen in our society where mocking between brothers do not take place.
If this is odd in today's Western Christian culture, I am sure it is not so in the then Jewish Muslim culture.

Friendship.


Greetings Friendship,

Your post calls to mind two things....
Doesn't it seem odd to say that a 16 year old was a child and crying as his mother looked for water?
Just seems odd to me.

You are right teasing between brothers is nothing unusual, but apparently Sara found it intolerable... as a mother protective of her son?
I am thinking due to the tension and resentment that had been there between herself and Hagar already, before Isaac was conceived, and now perhaps the fact that the son born first was perhaps choosing to 'lord' that fact over Isaac?  Making himself to be more important?

Just look at what Joseph's brothers did to him when he acted self important.

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by 786SalamKhan


In John 16: 12 & 13, Jesus says:

“I have yet many things to say unto you,

but you cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the spirit of truth, is come,

He will guide you into all truth; ”


Was Muhammad a spirit?

[QUOTE=786SalamKhan]

Narrated Ubaidullah:  "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!'  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"

The Quran only says to believe in the (original) previous scriptures that were sent to the Prophets of old.

[/quote]

This is hadith, not qur'an.  A human interpretation.

Does the qu'ran really say this?  I would have to ask who has added words?  Is this in order to add a certain meaning that perhaps was not there?

Salaam.


Edited by Caringheart - 18 January 2013 at 9:08pm
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:22pm

Originally posted by friendship

I have never seen in our society where mocking between brothers do not take place.


Friendship, why would a 16 yr. old mock a young, young boy being weaned unless it was out of jealousy, would that not present a future problem? In fact that same problem has been handed down even today between the Israelis and Palestinians.   

But without letting personal feelings cloud your judgment, the scriptures said that (Yahweh) God saw to it that Abraham acted to remove the source of the problem from his household, regardless of how we feel on the matter.

Like you, I too always call for commonsense and reasoning to prevail in this forum.

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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2013 at 10:03pm

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

The Quran only says to believe in the (original) previous scriptures that were sent to the Prophets of old.

Was Muhammad aware of an uncorrupted version of the Holy Scriptures when he was told to recite? If so, where and why didn’t this so call ‘angel Gabriel’ tell Muhammad to correct it? If so, why did Allah fail to preserve it as he promised he would? Why didn’t Jesus 12 Apostles say they were corrupted, only modern Muslims? Also, there are over a dozen passages in the Quran that says to believe, read and follow the Gospel, how could you if it was corrupted?

Either way this brings on a serious, serious problem for Muslims not for Christians. Besides, Muslims do not even have the original copies of the Quran let alone the original Quran. If anything, just word of mouth and you know how unreliable that is where as the Holy Scriptures have eye-witness testimonies of the event.   

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Quote 786SalamKhan Replybullet Posted: 19 January 2013 at 12:06am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.
I always call for commonsense and reasoning prevail in this forum. There is no need turning us as unintelligent folks and driven to hair splitting arguments.

Hear, hear.  I agree.

Originally posted by Friendship

Isaac was born when Ishmael was 16 years or so. It shows that Ishmael was also in Palestine then and not in Makka. This was the moment Ishmael was driven away. At sixteen years old his mother left him looking for water. The child was crying etc. Nobody question this. If actually both are normal human beings and behaved as we behave today, I have never seen in our society where mocking between brothers do not take place.
If this is odd in today's Western Christian culture, I am sure it is not so in the then Jewish Muslim culture.

Friendship.


Greetings Friendship,

Your post calls to mind two things....
Doesn't it seem odd to say that a 16 year old was a child and crying as his mother looked for water?
Just seems odd to me.

You are right teasing between brothers is nothing unusual, but apparently Sara found it intolerable... as a mother protective of her son?
I am thinking due to the tension and resentment that had been there between herself and Hagar already, before Isaac was conceived, and now perhaps the fact that the son born first was perhaps choosing to 'lord' that fact over Isaac?  Making himself to be more important?

Just look at what Joseph's brothers did to him when he acted self important.



Yes it is quite strange.

Genesis 21:14

King James Version (KJV)

And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

Genesis 21:18

King James Version (KJV)

Arise, lift up the lad(?), and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

Genesis describes Ishmael as a child in the desert.


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