IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam?

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Kish

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Posted: 04 January 2013 at 2:08pm

According to the Toarh, a father could transfer the birthright if he had a good reason, giving the firstborn’s inheritance to a younger son. In the instances of this noted in the Bible, it was not through whim or favoritism, but there was a basis on which the father determined to make the change in the birthright inheritance. Ishmael, as Abraham’s oldest son, was prospective heir for about 14 years. (Ge 16:16; 17:18-21; 21:5) But at Sarah’s request and with Jehovah God’s approval, Abraham dismissed Ishmael, then about 19 years of age.

SO, a father could transfer the birthright if he had a good reason, giving the firstborn’s inheritance to a younger son.

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honeto

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Posted: 05 January 2013 at 1:02pm

Originally posted by Kish

Okay, back to the subject at hand.

How else do we know that the God of Abraham turned his back on Ishmael/Islam?

1)God agreed with Sarah that Ishmael be kicked out of Abraham’s household for good.

Gen. 21:10, 12 So she began to say to Abraham: “Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an HEIR with my son, with Isaac!

12 Then God said to Abraham: “Listen to her voice, because it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be

2)Ishmael was not buried in the cave of Machpelah, the place of burial for Abraham and Isaac, along with their wives.

Gen. 49:31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife. There they buried Isaac and Re•bek′ah his wife, and there I buried Le′ah.

3)Ishmaelites hated the God of Israel!

Ps. 83:2, 6 For, look! your very enemies (Ish′ma•el•ites ) are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head. . . the Ish′ma•el•ites!!!

They were even hard to get along with “His hand will be against everyone, and the hand of everyone will be against him” (Gen.16:12) So, as we can see ever so clear from the Holy Scriptures, whether Muhammad, who claimed to be an Ishmaelite descendant of Abraham is true or not, it really does not matter.

After the covenant with Abraham, the God of Israel never would use Ishmaelite’s as messengers or prophets, why?

A)They were not Hebrew first and foremost.
B)They never spoke in the name of God, Yahweh/Jehovah. (Deuteronomy 18: 20)
C)They served moon gods (Judges 8)
D)They were born not from Sarah and Abraham but from his slave girl, Hagar

Hagar, represented literal Israel with Jerusalem as its capital

Galatian 4:25 Now this Ha′gar means Si′nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children.

Topic: Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam?

Yes, he most certainly did.

Kish,
very clever and decietful, in reality
incomplete:
You present half of the truth in your point-1.
No, according to the Bible God did not turn His back in Ishmael/Islam. Only you closed your eyes after Genesis 21:12.
Here is more of what you tried to hide:
Genesis 21:12 "And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy handmaid. In all that Sarah saith unto thee, hearken unto her voice. For in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

13 And also of the son of the handmaid will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and gave her the child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.

15 And the water in the bottle was spent, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot. For she said, Let me not look upon the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lifted up her voice, and wept.

17 And God heard the voice of the lad. And the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? Fear not. For God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.

18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thy hand. For I will make him a great nation.
19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

20 And God was with the lad, and he grew...."

Nice half try Kish but the truth is in the verses above.
"God was with the lad (Ishamel)" did not mean God turned his back on him, as you are trying to make it look like.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 05 January 2013 at 1:40pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Friendship

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Posted: 05 January 2013 at 2:38pm

Assalamu alaika Kish.

Please do not adulterate the Torah. I implore you to use commonsense and reasoning that gift from the G-d of Abraham that raised us above all His creations.
When Abraham was separating Hegar and her son he gave them what they wanted for their journey- an animal skin full of water and breed.
Gen 25 did not in anyway state how the animals of Abraham were shared. if you are interested ask the Rabbis and here the truth from them. The Rabbis said that Keturah was the name of Hajar and that Ishmael lived also in Palestine with Abraham.

Friendship.

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Kish

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Posted: 06 January 2013 at 1:52pm

Hasan, like the Jews/Israel, Ishmael eventually turned his back on the God of Abraham which resulted in God turning his back on Ishmael. God kept his promise as he always does, Ishmael had twelve sons and became a nation but like the Nation of Israel they did not keep following the God of Abraham and Isaac.

As shown in the scriptures I posted he was not buried along with his family, an heir of the family, did not serve Abraham’s God, Jehovah. In fact they hated his God, this is very well documented.

Ps. 83:2, 6 For, look! your very enemies (Ish′ma•el•ites ) are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head. . . the Ish′ma•el•ites!!!

Because of Ishmael’s dismissal and hatred for Isaac, his heart became harden, that is why even today there is still great animosity between Arabs and Israelis, this hatred was handed down to his descendants.

I only say this to show as I mentioned earlier, God would not use any descendants of his because of these reasons and because of the promise he made to Abraham and Sarah NOT Abraham and Hagar.

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Caringheart

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Posted: 06 January 2013 at 11:06pm

I am reminded of a line from Lord of the Rings, by C.S.Lewis, regarding gollum...

'I feel that he too has his part that he must play...'

Ishmael too has his part to play, and Muhammad is the one to play out this part, in this drama called life which the Creator has laid out for us. It is all written in the Bible for those with eyes to see.

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honeto

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Posted: 07 January 2013 at 3:40pm

Kish,
that goes against what God said in Genesis 21:18 where God himself is quoted to have said:
"18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thy hand. For I will make him a great nation."

So, the problem is in the contents, either one can be true. God says he will make him a great nation.
I know God does not say two different things at once. So the problem is in the book.
Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Kish

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Posted: 09 January 2013 at 8:02pm

Originally posted by honeto

Kish,
that goes against what God said in Genesis 21:18 where God himself is quoted to have said:
"18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thy hand. For I will make him a great nation."
So, the problem is in the contents, either one can be true. God says he will make him a great nation.
I know God does not say two different things at once. So the problem is in the book.
Hasan

Hasan, according to Genesis 17:20 God said “He will certainly produce twelve chieftains.” Was that not a great nation as God promised despite the fact that Isaac was being mistreated badly by Ishmael?

Just as God promised to preserve and protect his word which he did, God promised Ishmael to be a great nation which he did, how is that two different things?

The problem Hasan, is not God and his inspired contents but Muslims misinterpretation of God’s inspired contents.

So, you’re right God does not say two different things at once.

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honeto

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Posted: 16 January 2013 at 3:26pm

Kish,
....and that misinterpretation is ??
and what is this mistreatment of Isaac by Ishmael, from where do you get that?
Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Topic: Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam?
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Author	Message
Kish Guest Group Joined: 07 July 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 237	Posted: 04 January 2013 at 2:08pm
	According to the Toarh, a father could transfer the birthright if he had a good reason, giving the firstborn’s inheritance to a younger son. In the instances of this noted in the Bible, it was not through whim or favoritism, but there was a basis on which the father determined to make the change in the birthright inheritance. Ishmael, as Abraham’s oldest son, was prospective heir for about 14 years. (Ge 16:16; 17:18-21; 21:5) But at Sarah’s request and with Jehovah God’s approval, Abraham dismissed Ishmael, then about 19 years of age. SO, a father could transfer the birthright if he had a good reason, giving the firstborn’s inheritance to a younger son.
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 05 January 2013 at 1:02pm
	*Originally posted by Kish* Okay, back to the subject at hand. How else do we know that the God of Abraham turned his back on Ishmael/Islam? 1)God agreed with Sarah that Ishmael be kicked out of Abraham’s household for good. Gen. 21:10, 12 So she began to say to Abraham: “Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an HEIR with my son, with Isaac! 12 Then God said to Abraham: “Listen to her voice, because it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be 2)Ishmael was not buried in the cave of Machpelah, the place of burial for Abraham and Isaac, along with their wives. Gen. 49:31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife. There they buried Isaac and Re•bek′ah his wife, and there I buried Le′ah. 3)Ishmaelites hated the God of Israel! Ps. 83:2, 6 For, look! your very enemies (Ish′ma•el•ites ) are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head. . . the Ish′ma•el•ites!!! They were even hard to get along with “His hand will be against everyone, and the hand of everyone will be against him” (Gen.16:12) So, as we can see ever so clear from the Holy Scriptures, whether Muhammad, who claimed to be an Ishmaelite descendant of Abraham is true or not, it really does not matter. After the covenant with Abraham, the God of Israel never would use Ishmaelite’s as messengers or prophets, why? A)They were not Hebrew first and foremost. B)They never spoke in the name of God, Yahweh/Jehovah. (Deuteronomy 18: 20) C)They served moon gods (Judges 8) D)They were born not from Sarah and Abraham but from his slave girl, Hagar Hagar, represented literal Israel with Jerusalem as its capital Galatian 4:25 Now this Ha′gar means Si′nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. Topic: Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam? Yes, he most certainly did. Kish, very clever and decietful, in reality incomplete: You present half of the truth in your point-1. No, according to the Bible God did not turn His back in Ishmael/Islam. Only you closed your eyes after Genesis 21:12. Here is more of what you tried to hide: Genesis 21:12 "And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy handmaid. In all that Sarah saith unto thee, hearken unto her voice. For in Isaac shall thy seed be called. 13 And also of the son of the handmaid will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. 14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and gave her the child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. 15 And the water in the bottle was spent, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. 16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot. For she said, Let me not look upon the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lifted up her voice, and wept. 17 And God heard the voice of the lad. And the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? Fear not. For God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thy hand. For I will make him a great nation. 19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. 20 And God was with the lad, and he grew...." Nice half try Kish but the truth is in the verses above. "God was with the lad (Ishamel)" did not mean God turned his back on him, as you are trying to make it look like. Hasan Edited by honeto - 05 January 2013 at 1:40pm
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Friendship Senior Member Joined: 24 August 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 874	Posted: 05 January 2013 at 2:38pm
	Assalamu alaika Kish. Please do not adulterate the Torah. I implore you to use commonsense and reasoning that gift from the G-d of Abraham that raised us above all His creations. When Abraham was separating Hegar and her son he gave them what they wanted for their journey- an animal skin full of water and breed. Gen 25 did not in anyway state how the animals of Abraham were shared. if you are interested ask the Rabbis and here the truth from them. The Rabbis said that Keturah was the name of Hajar and that Ishmael lived also in Palestine with Abraham. Friendship.
	IP Logged

Kish Guest Group Joined: 07 July 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 237	Posted: 06 January 2013 at 1:52pm
	Hasan, like the Jews/Israel, Ishmael eventually turned his back on the God of Abraham which resulted in God turning his back on Ishmael. God kept his promise as he always does, Ishmael had twelve sons and became a nation but like the Nation of Israel they did not keep following the God of Abraham and Isaac. As shown in the scriptures I posted he was not buried along with his family, an heir of the family, did not serve Abraham’s God, Jehovah. In fact they hated his God, this is very well documented. Ps. 83:2, 6 For, look! your very enemies (Ish′ma•el•ites ) are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head. . . the Ish′ma•el•ites!!! Because of Ishmael’s dismissal and hatred for Isaac, his heart became harden, that is why even today there is still great animosity between Arabs and Israelis, this hatred was handed down to his descendants. I only say this to show as I mentioned earlier, God would not use any descendants of his because of these reasons and because of the promise he made to Abraham and Sarah NOT Abraham and Hagar.
	IP Logged

Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1311	Posted: 06 January 2013 at 11:06pm
	I am reminded of a line from Lord of the Rings, by C.S.Lewis, regarding gollum... 'I feel that he too has his part that he must play...' Ishmael too has his part to play, and Muhammad is the one to play out this part, in this drama called life which the Creator has laid out for us. It is all written in the Bible for those with eyes to see.
	IP Logged

honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 07 January 2013 at 3:40pm
	Kish, that goes against what God said in Genesis 21:18 where God himself is quoted to have said: "18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thy hand. For I will make him a great nation." So, the problem is in the contents, either one can be true. God says he will make him a great nation. I know God does not say two different things at once. So the problem is in the book. Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
	IP Logged

Kish Guest Group Joined: 07 July 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 237	Posted: 09 January 2013 at 8:02pm
	*Originally posted by honeto* Kish, that goes against what God said in Genesis 21:18 where God himself is quoted to have said: "18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thy hand. For I will make him a great nation." So, the problem is in the contents, either one can be true. God says he will make him a great nation. I know God does not say two different things at once. So the problem is in the book. Hasan Hasan, according to Genesis 17:20 God said “He will certainly produce twelve chieftains.” Was that not a great nation as God promised despite the fact that Isaac was being mistreated badly by Ishmael? Just as God promised to preserve and protect his word which he did, God promised Ishmael to be a great nation which he did, how is that two different things? The problem Hasan, is not God and his inspired contents but Muslims misinterpretation of God’s inspired contents. So, you’re right God does not say two different things at once.
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 16 January 2013 at 3:26pm
	Kish, ....and that misinterpretation is ?? and what is this mistreatment of Isaac by Ishmael, from where do you get that? Hasan
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
	IP Logged