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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Did God turn his back on Israel and Islam? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 22 September 2012 at 8:32pm
Mr. Kish I think you are really confused. The verse you've quoted is specifically for the Children of Israel and it seems you don't really know much about Ishmael either.

Sahih International
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all [of them] We preferred over the worlds.
6:86

And mention in the Book, Ishmael. Indeed, he was true to his promise, and he was a messenger and a prophet.


38:48And remember Ishmael, Elisha and Dhul-Kifl, and all are among the outstanding.
19:54
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nothing
 
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Quote nothing Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2012 at 10:18am
Originally posted by Kish

Yes! (Matthew 21:43) This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU . . .

Kish, hopefully it won't take much of your time if you kindly explain the short version of what was the The kingdom of God before taken away. Remember most muslims are not familiar with this terminology. Fair enough?

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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 24 September 2012 at 10:53pm
Assalamu alaika Kish.
 
First of all I never called any human being with a name other than a MUSLIM!. It is allowed to describe one according to his actions. Thus Allah described those whom He took covenant with but broke that covenant as Christians.
As to the proof of Ishamel, it is in the Qur'an 2:125-129;6: 86; 19: 54 etc. If according to the rabbis Ishmael took part in the burial of his father, was burial a command from Allah or not? Note that the followers of Muhammad and the children of Israel have the same instructions in the matter of burial.
There is a lot of literature showing that Islam : that is the jewish practice and the Sunna are the same.
You deny the Injeel version of the Qur'an. So what is the use of telling you what Allah says? Is not regarding Allah as a liar?
Please let us argue and follow the Right way and enjoy the world. There is no justification in accusing Muhammad of spreading, teaching and preaching terrorism, disquiet and disunity when the few who udnerstood him are hated and not listened at. Kish! out of the 636,000 body of the Children of Israel only about 22,000 read the Torah! Out of that number only Ohiliob and Bethalel were taught the use of iron, silver bronze and gold after the Exodus. Please let us go by the examples in the Torah. Can't you see that the 3 million Muslims attending pilgrimage will all return to their land without any reward?
Allah has not son! Otherwise there will be no paradise and hell!
 
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Edited by Friendship - 25 September 2012 at 10:40pm
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Kish
 
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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 25 September 2012 at 10:49am

Originally posted by abu loren

The verse you've quoted is specifically for the Children of Israel . . .

Yes, initially Israel and secondly anyone who is claiming the Kingdom covenant or Abraham’s God; Israelis, Ishmaelite’s, etc. . . .

After Ishmael and Hagar was let go and not ever to return to Abraham’s home everyone’s hand was against them, including God. In time the Ishmaelite’s HATED the God of Abraham even down till this day it seems. All this is historically proven and very well documented.

Ishmael may have been a messenger of the prophet but he or anyone from of his family was not a messenger of the true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!

So, regardless of what Muhammad had supposedly written, his words go totally against the words and the law of all the Prophets before him, including Jesus. Jesus words cannot be undone all though many have tried in times past way before Muhammad.

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Quote Kish Replybullet Posted: 25 September 2012 at 10:50am

Originally posted by nothing

kindly explain the short version of what was the The kingdom of God before taken away. Remember most muslims are not familiar with this terminology.

The expression and exercise of God’s universal sovereignty toward his creatures, or the means or instrumentality used by him for this purpose. (Ps 103:19) The phrase is used particularly for the expression of God’s sovereignty through a Royal Government headed by his Son, Christ Jesus.

Translation by Yusuf Ali: Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. 4: 158

Jesus was raised to heaven for this purpose which the Quran Acknowledges.

The government of God is, in structure and function, a pure theocracy (from Gr. the·os′, god, and kra′tos, a rule), a rule by God.

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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 25 September 2012 at 3:36pm


[/QUOTE]

Kish,
you have problem paying attention. The individual that submits to the will of God is the one who is the true believer. Not a group of people on base of their race, color, nor gender, nor material status will be saved. Each and every individual has to prove their submission to the Will of God through sincere and truthful intention and action.
And those who sincerely are in submission to the will of God are at peace with themselves.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 25 September 2012 at 3:37pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 25 September 2012 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by Kish


Originally posted by friendship

If Ishmael did not submit to G-d while in Palestine, he submitted to Him while in that Southern Desert - Makka.

Convince us who are not Muslim through references and proof that he submitted to Allah because he  did not submit to God in Palestine.

Originally posted by friendship

The one who follows Muhammad openly is the one who submitted to G-d.

Can you show us from the Injil that the one who follows Muhammad is submitting to God? Because this in direct opposition to what Jesus is saying in the Injil. You and I know very well that Jesus ssid to follow him and no one else, it is written.

“I (Jesus) set the pattern for you.” (John 13:15) Not Muhammad!

“Continue following me.” (John 21:19) Not Muhammad!

“All authority* has been given me in heaven and on the earth. (Matt 28:18) Not Muhammad!

And you say follow Muhammad after what Jesus and God had already said, really? You stand on slippery ground by making that statement.

Say: "People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel [Injil], and what was sent down to you from your Lord." ... S. 5:68 Arberry

Say (O Muhammad SAW)] "Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt. S. 6:114 Al-Hilali & Khan

Even your Quran openly acknowledges the important of obeying the Injil (Gospel) and Muslims are telling people not to, wow!

Originally posted by friendship

Do not be deceived by the followers of Muhammad of this century.

I agree because Muhammad earlier followers believed the Injil It was only until Ibn-Khazem in 1064 made the accusation against the corruption of the Scriptures without any historical facts to prove it.

JESUS SAID: “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but what he hears.” (John.16:12-13)

  <>

    The question is who is this Comforter Jesus (S) spoke of in the bible? Is the Comforter a “Spirit” or a “persons”? We the Muslims believe that the Comforter is Muhammad (S). On the other hand Christians does not. They misunderstood the Comforter for the Holy Ghost/Spirit; whereas Jesus (S) spoke of two personalities: The Comforter and the Holy Ghost/Spirit. In this chapter with a closer examination I have established both of them, that is, one in Heaven with the Father and one was with the disciples on earth. 

   Let us look at John 14:26  it is mentioned:

“Butt the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost...” (John14: 26)

   Here we understood that the comforter is the Holy Spirit. However, in 1john.2:1 Jesus was also called comforter it, read:

“...we have an “advocate” with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” (1John.2:1)

  The Greek word used there for both is “paracletos” which translated as “comforter, advocate, etc.” so we have now, Jesus (s) as a comforter and the holy spirit as the comforter, both were call comforter so we arrive with two now called comforter, man and spirit.  

  After said that, now, let’s look at john14:16-17. Jesus (s) said:

“…I will pray to the father, and he shall give you "another" comforter that he may abide with you for ever. even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for “he dwelleth with you and shall be in you.” (John14:16-17)

 In the above verse Jesus (S) make mentioned of both the “another Comforter’ who is with the father in heaven and the “Spirit of truth” which dwells with the disciples on earth. 

 In that verse, the key word is "another". If something is already with you how can we call it “another” when it is already with you, can we? No! As the verse continues, it read:

“even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you.

You see that? It says:  “for he dwelleth with you” meaning it is already with them. so another comforter here is not the spirit of truth that is already with them, it is referring to someone that is not there. Jesus (s) himself is a comforter according 1john.2:1

...we have an “advocate” with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (1John.2:1)

 He then is telling them (the disciples) about another one. What does “another” mean? It cannot be the same thing; it has to be another like the same thing. Jesus (s) is the “first” comforter; then the “other”: the one to follow must be of “like nature” or we can say, the “another comforter” like Jesus (s) who is a comforter.

  So it’s two personalities: (1) – the one which is yet to come from the father and (2) – the one that dwells with the disciples. That is the point Christians’ commentators were missing.

 Another important fact is where this “another comforter” will come. I shall examine john 14:16-17 and other verses in more details.

Jesus (s) said:

“…I will pray to the father, and he shall give you ‘another comforter’…” (John 14:16-17)

  They Christian’s commentators miss that very important fact. This “comforter” has to come from the “father!” And who is Jesus (S) Father? Jesus (S) said:

“…I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.” (John 20:16-17 AKJV).

   According to him, his Father is OUR GOD and HIS GOD; He has a GOD, he said: “MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.” In other words, the other comforter has to come from God Almighty. Jesus (s) conform it in john 16:7: he said:

“Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is expedient for you that ‘I go’ for if ‘I go not away’, the comforter will not come unto you, but if ‘i depart’, i will send him unto you.” (John 16:7)

  That would mean the comforter was with the father in heaven and when he goes to the father in heaven then he will send him. We cannot say Jesus (s) will send himself, which is foolish because Jesus (s) is not there with the father in heaven when he was talking to the disciples. The “another comforter” is in heaven with the father, Jesus (s) mentioned it in John 3:13: 

“and no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is ‘in’ heaven.” john 3:13 (kjv)

  Jesus (S) was the Son of man “ON” earth and he spoke about “another” Son of man which is “IN” heaven. 

Now, let us look at John 14:16-17 again, he said:

“…I will pray to the father, and he shall give you ‘another’ comforter… even the spirit of truth… but ye know him; for ‘he dwelleth with you’ and shall be in you.

 Jesus (S) was talking about “another comforter” who is with the Father in Heaven and when he goes to Heaven then that comforter will comes and also the “Holy Spirit” which was with the disciple on earth (…for he dwelleth with you…).

 

THE CONDITION BEFORE THE COMFORTER COMES

   Moreover, if we read John 16 verse 7 you will see Jesus (S) laid a “condition” before the other Comforter comes, and the “condition” is, when he goes to the Father in Heaven he will send him according to the N.T. because the other Comforter was in Heaven at that time with the Father. He said in John 16:7:

“Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is expedient for you that I go for if I go not away, the comforter will not come unto you, but if I depart, I will send him unto you!” (John 16:7)

   But according to the N.T. the disciple received the Holy Ghost “before” Jesus (S) left. It is mentioned in John.20:21-22 when Jesus (S) said:

...as my father hath sent me, even so I send you (the disciple) and  when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, received ye the holy ghost.” (John.20:21-22)

That is the one which Jesus (s) was talking about when he said: “even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you.”

Now, if the Spirit of truth is not in them but dwelleth with them (the disciple), then where is the spirit of truth? John chapter 1 verse 32 read:

I saw the Spirit descending from heaven... and abode upon him.”(John 1:32)

  Jesus (S) was a comforter (1John.2:1) with the spirit of truth strengthening him. So he dwelleth with them (the disciples) and shall be in them, which they received when Jesus (S) breathed on them in John.20:21-22.

   The Qur’an also mentioned of Allah (s) strengthens the believers (Muslims) with a “spirit (Rooh)” from himself:  

The believers (Muslims) also are strengthen with the spirit from Allah (s): thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the last day, loving those who oppose Allah and his messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such he has written faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from himself (roohin-minhu)...” (Qur’an 58:22)

La tajidu qawman yuminoona biAllahi waalyawmi alakhiri yuwaddoona man hadda Allaha warasoolahu walaw kanoo abaahum aw abnaahum aw ikhwanahum aw AAasheeratahum olaika kataba fee quloobihimu aleemana waayyadahum biroohin minhu Qur’an 58:22

 The Qur’an also described Jesus (S) as a spirit proceeds from Him and he was supported by the Holy Spirit (Rooh ul Qudus):

“…Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His word (BE), which he bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him (Roohun minhu)… (Q.4: 171); O! Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Rooh ul Qudus [Jibreel (Gabriel)].” [al-Maa'idah 5:110]      

In the above explanation I have given are: (1) we have the Comforter which is the Holy Spirit that was “abode upon Jesus (s)” (2) and we have the other Comforter like Jesus (s) that was “with the father in heaven.” Jesus (s) mentioned of the one in heaven with the father in john 3:13:

“and no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is ‘IN’ heaven.” John 3:13

 

HOW WILL THIS COMFORTER ABIDE WITH US FOREVER? JESUS (S) TELLS US

 This explanation is from the late Ahmad Deedat [May Allah (S) rewards him], he explained:

  “In Luke, Chapter sixteen, Jesus (S) tells us the story of the ‘rich man, Poor man.’ At death both find themselves at opposite ends – one in Heaven and one in Hell. The rich man simmering in Hell cries to Father Abraham to send the beggar (Lazarus) to slake his thirst. But when every plea fails, he, ask a last favor, requesting that Father Abraham send the beggar to earth to warn his living brother against their impending doom if they heeded not the warning of God.

But Abraham said, ‘If they (those still alive on earth) hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (To warn them)’ Luke 16:31

  Jesus uttered the above parable centuries after the demise of the prophets of Israel Jeremiah, Hosea, etc. and over thirteen hundred years after Moses (S). The Pharisees at that time of Jesus (S) and we today can still listen to ‘Moses and the Prophets.’ For they are alive still alive, and with us here today in their teaching and so was Muhammad (S) the ‘Another Comforter’ (Nothing new, Jesus said it!)”

 

THE DISCIPLES KNEW OF HIM 

       It was conformed in 1John.4:1

“Beloved, believes not every spirit, but tries the spirits whether they are of god because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” 1John.4:1  

Now, let us look at this statement, “believe not every spirit”. How do we “believe”? We cannot believe if we do not listen and heard the spirit, correct? We have to listen and hear the spirit to believe. Now, the verse continues: “but try the spirits whether they are of God” How do we try the Spirit? By questioning him, and that is not my opinion, V.2 conforms it: “2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:”

The Spirit has to “confess” and if he “confesses” that would mean we have to listen to him. Now, let us go back to V.1 it says: “because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

Why “gone out into the world”? Because, “into the world” you have to go and look! And what you have to look for? It says: “Because many false prophets are gone out.” The opposite of false prophet is what? True Prophet!!!

 Conclusion: John is saying, go out into the world and look for a true prophet with the true spirit. And how do we know him? V.2 Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. The prophet with the true spirit will have to confess that Jesus (s) come in flesh.

 

CONFECTIONED OF THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH

To have a better understanding we have to begin with the book of john.

It is mentioned in John.1:1 “In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was god.”

 If the word “was” God and the word was “with” God in the literal sense, it would mean that there are two Gods! In the Biblical language, the term “god” is used metaphorically to indicate power. Paul referred to the DEVIL as god. 

In whom the “god” of this world hath blinded the mind of them which believe not... (2Corinthiants4:4)

  Moses (S) also referred to as god:

“and the lord said unto Moses, see I have made thee a ‘god’ to pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.” (Exodus 7:1)

 Which word was “with” God in the beginning? For us to know we have to go to the beginning.

It mentioned in the beginning:

“and God said, let there be light: and there was light”. (genesis.1:3)

   So which word was with God? BE! And that is the word he used to create all things according Genesis 1

Quran puts it in short:

“When he (Allah) hath decreed a matter, He but said to it, be and it is!” (Q.3:47)   

The same word also He used to create the life:

 (Brackets added in verse)

...and the life was the light of men, and the light shineth in darkness (man) and the darkness (man) comprehended it not”. (John.1:4-5) that was the true light, which lightest every man that come into this world. (John.1:9).

The “TRUE LIGHT” was the “LIFE” that was created with the word “BE”. We have to read the messages in context to have the correct meaning. Jesus (S) got the title as the “WORD” because he was created from the word which was “BE”. Qur’an tells us:

“The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, BE And he was.” (Q.3:59)

and the word (be) was made flesh, and dwell among us. (john.1:14)

 How the word “BE” was made flesh? The Qur’an gives the answer:

Behold! The angel said: o Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him: his name will be (Isa) Christ Jesus, the son of Mary...she said: "o my lord! how shall i have a son when no man hath touched me?" Allah createth what he willeth: when he hath decreed a matter, he but saith to it be, and it is! (Q.3:45-47) 

   And the word “BE” was made flesh and dwell among us.

And John tells us:

Here by know ye the spirit of god: every spirit that comfesseth that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of god. (1John 4:2)

Who confesses that? Muhammad (S), He (S) was that True Prophet with the Spirit of Truth!

Allah (S) mentioned in the Qur’an:

“Verily this is a revelation from the Lord of the world:

With it came down the SPIRIT OF FAITH and TRUTH (Rooh-ul-Amin).

To thy heart.” (Q.26:192-194)

He shall testify of me! Jesus (s) said:

“when the comforter is come, whom i will send unto you from the father, even the spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the father, he will testify of me.” (John 15:26 ) 

 The Noble Reminder to the people of the book: Allah (S) mentioned in the Qur'an:

“O people of book! commit no excess in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah and his word (be), which he bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messenger. Say not "trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one God: glory be to Him. (Q.4:171)    

Jesus was a MESSENGER of Allah, a WORD from Allah and a SPIRIT proceeding from Allah.   “...He shall testify of me.” (John 15:26)

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, BE And he was. (Q.3:59)

 The truth [comes] from thy Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt. (Q.3:60)

Allah (S) said:

"If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after [full] knowledge hath come to thee, Say: 'Come! Let us gather together, our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray. And invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!'" (Q.3:61)

LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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Friendship
 
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 26 September 2012 at 2:32am
Assalamu alaikum.
 
The comforter in reality taking into consideration what happened between the raising of Jesus son of Maryam to heavens cannot be other than that one who Allah send to correct humanity and direct it to the Straight Path. HISTORICALLY, THERE WAS NONE OTHER THAN MUHAMMAD THAT HUMAN BEING WHO LIVED FROM 610-632 AD. The word 'Mahdi' meaning 'The guide' used unintelligibly by  those apologists and confusionists followers of Muhammad is close to the concept of a 'Comforter'.  The follower of Muhammad anticipating the arrival of a 'Mahdi' to teach and demonstrate to him the Pillars of Islam is certainly a disbeliever.
As for the Christians ( I do not know the belief of the Jews but I will ask a Rabbi) the example of Reverend Moon of Suth Korea failure to unite the Christians is an argumnet against them that Jesus cannot be the 'Messiah'. The litmus test is now hanging on the establishment of the 'Caliph'- a task that is rejected by the followers of Muhammad Rasulullah.
Establishment of the caliph is the only proof and evidence that Muhammad was sent as a mercy to mankind and that his call is indeed the perfected, chosen and completed way of life enveloping the Message contained in the Torah. Why is it that the Muslims are averse to the establishment of the caliph? It is nothing other than ignorance, fear and greed. Why is it that the West are sitting outside this battle field, while the disbelievers in the time of Muhammad Rasulullah helped him in establishing his authority in the Arabian Peninsula. Did they not benefit?
Indeed al-Arrat complained to Muhammad Rasulullah of insecurity experienced by their caravans. Muhamamd replied, "I swear by Allah in whose hand is my life. If you are patient soon will come th time when a merchant will travel from Sana'a to Syria fearing nothing other than the cry of a wolf." Did this happen or not?
 
The time has come. Maududi in his 1944 lecture at Aleigra university said, "It is futile and useful st**id forone to resist a revolution that has already set its foot...(or words of this meaning). In fact Allah has signalled this in the holy Qur'an 57:16, "Has not the time come for the hearts of those who believe (in Oneness of Allah - the Jews) to be affected by Allah's Remionder (the comfort and hardships suffered by the Jews), and that which was revealed of the truth, lest they become as those who received the Scripture and the Injeel before, and the term was prolonged for them and so their hearts were hardened? ..." Further demanding the establishment of the truth (Caliphate) Allah continues; "Know that Allah gives life to the earth after its death! Indeed We have made clear the Ayat (proofs evidences, lessons of the total failure of democray, communism capatalism and all isms and ists to bring peace and socio-economic stability in the world) to you, if you but understand."
 
Friendship.
 
 


Edited by Friendship - 26 September 2012 at 2:33am
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