IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: At Your Service, Oh Mohammad

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Oh my, I certainly seem to have touched a nerve here.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

How dare you twist my words and use it against me?

I said the Prophet (pbuh) did not perform ablution every time he went to the toilet, where did I say that he did not wash his hands?

Do you know the difference between ablution and washing one's hands?

I did not intend to twist your words. If you had used the word "wudu", I would have understood that you were referring to the Islamic ritual; but the English word "ablution" is just a fancy word meaning to wash or rinse one's body, so from my point of view there really is no difference. And just for the record, the hadith in question makes it clear that Muhammad saw no need to use water (to wash himself ritually or otherwise) after urinating:"Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) urinated and Umar was standing behind him with a jug of water. He said: What is this, Umar? He replied: Water for you to perform ablution with. He said: I have not been commanded to perform ablution every time I urinate. If I were to do so, it would become a sunnah." Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number 0042.

Originally posted by honeto

The Laws, for example here in the US are written in form of books. Why do we need judges, lawyers and experts in the legal system? Do you question why there are these people needed while we already have the law?

Judges are needed to settle disputes between litigants. Other legal experts are useful in answering legal questions and explaining how the law might apply in particular contexts. In both cases, the interaction, with the litigants or with the questioners, is an essential element to their function. The plaintiff states his case, the defendent gives his rebuttal, and the judge decides whose argument shall prevail; or the client describes his situation, poses a particular question, and the legal expert offers his opinion as to the legal aspects. This cannot happen after the judges and/or legal experts are dead.

If, according to you the Quran, or in this case the book of law has everything in it no further explaining needed, why do we need these highly educated and learned men and women explaining, defending, cross examining, questioning the understanding of what the law in the book means and how it applies!

Indeed, there is value in imams and priests and clerics of all kinds who can answer questions and help interpret scripture for the lay person. However, again the interaction is the crucial element that makes them valuable. You can't ask Muhammad a question; and even if you could, his answer cannot take into account your particular circumstances.

Somehow you claim to know information about the prophet that I am not aware of like the three stone you claimed he cleaned himself with. Did you pick up those stone and put them in you pocket so you still have their count? Disgusting and disrespectful, you are really getting low Mr. Ron.

Disgusting, I agree, and unworthy to appear in a holy scripture, but there it is:"Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When any of you goes to relieve himself, he should take with him three stones to cleans himself, for they will be enough for him." Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number 0040. (See also Sahih Bukhari, Book 4, Numbers 157, 158, 162 and many others.)

let me ask you: You do not wipe with a paper if poop touched your hand, or do you? Why would you do that to your bottom. It is still part of your body, unless you think it is not part of your body?

Well, let's not get too graphic here -- but my hands need to be clean because they touch all sorts of things that you also touch, and that is how disease spreads. My "bottom" touches nothing that you also touch, so it does not need to be as clean. Mind you, you will be comforted to know that when I am at home or whenever I have the opportunity, I do indeed wash the appropriate body parts after every use.

Elsewhere I have to settle for toilet paper, but that is still better than stones. And I always wash my hands afterwards, with soap (which Muhammad apparently did not use); or where even soap is unavailable, I normally carry a small bottle of hand sanitizer. So yes, I believe I am cleaner than any eighth century Muslim -- not meaning any disrespect for Muhammad or his contemporaries, who did the best they could with the resources available to them.

Ron,
I think you missed the point:
Those who made the constitution and many of the laws we follow are dead now. We still follow them, and in case we need interpretation or explanation we have experts who know and believe in them.
The Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) brought us laws, he is not with us but those laws are. Knowledgeable and educated experts can help us in light of those laws and their guidelines when we have a question or explanation or for something that is new to us. Like the constitution and the laws, their makers have long gone, but we have judges,lawyers and experts doing the explaining and interpreting where necessary.

You wrote in reply to me:
"Disgusting, I agree, and unworthy to appear in a holy scripture, but there it is:
"Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When any of you goes to relieve himself, he should take with him three stones to cleans himself, for they will be enough for him." Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number 0040. (See also Sahih Bukhari, Book 4, Numbers 157, 158, 162 and many others.)

First, Islam is a complete way of life, and that is a proof of that. No issue that affects a person's daily life is missed, yes even cleaning after one's self.
Second, you fail to understand that there is a difference between the Holy Quran which is directly from God, and Hadith which is word of men.
Also people who refuse to accept Quran, how would Hadith will make any difference for them? So they take both as a mockery. Allah will deal with them Justly one day. So the Hadith is for those who follow Quran, and it will make sense to them. People who do not believe in the Quran take Hadith for a sport. Allah will one day deal with them Justly as well.
This issue of washing or cleaning after going to the bathroom is very clear. If you have first looked in the Quran, you would have realized the answer and not needed to quote that Hadith, the purpose of which was if a situation is not addressed in the Quran, you look for it in the Hadith.
As I said before, you think by using a paper you are cleaner than a fellow Muslim, you are mistaken. You are even filthier than a Muslim fourteen hundred years ago. And I will explain to you how.
Fourteen hundred year ago Muslims were washing after going to the bathroom as they were commanded in the Quran, what you missed and others are pointing out to you is if there is no water available what do you do to keep cleaner.
5:6 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.

A Muslim today or fourteen hundred years ago washes after going to the bathroom simply to follow a command of God (see quote above) and is cleaner than someone like you who like many wipe with a disposable paper thinks is clean, but in fact you simply spread the poop over wider part of your body thinking if you cannot see it, it is gone. Science tells us that washing is cleaner. You needed science to prove that to you fourteen hundered years after God told us that in His book (quote above).
As for the hand wash, are you kidding me, if washing after bathroom is important, you think washing hand will be left. You gotta be kidding or you rally are arrogent.
Every time, and that's ar least five times a day, a Muslim prepares for Salath he/she do Whudu, and the very first step in that prescribed ritual washing is the washing of the hands.
Since I can remember, my parents even though not practicing Muslims had told me to wash my hands before eating, something I do not see here in the US in 21st century.
Of course, it is a good practice.
Allah wants us to be clean, it is true that a lot of Muslims in poorer country where they have left the Islamic practices are not as clean as Allah wants them to be. But that is the matter of practice, those who believe and practice their belief are in fact cleaner than anyone else even in poverty.
The Quran 2:222".... He (Allah)loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." When you can get to the essence of what Allah means clean and accomplish it you get to be 'clean and pure'.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 15 October 2012 at 3:01pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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I've finally realised that it's not worth engaging with this Ron Webb character. He twists everything we say to suit his atheist and scientific belief and he will lead the believers away from the Straight Path.

He is stealthily making fun of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and Islam as a whole.

My advise for everybody is to just ignore him.

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I agree, the answers are there, yet he is just finding ways to look other ways because he wants to mislead himself (a sign of disbelief) and mislead others with him (role of Satan).
He refuses to use common sense, and he ignore facts just so he can keep on going, assuming that somehow he has the edge. Who is he bluffing?
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 16 October 2012 at 9:36am

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Originally posted by Usmani

He is here for years, instead for getting light of Islam from here on islamicity, he is getting more towards darkness.

Yes indeed it's amazing how an atheist lasted four years on this forum. The powers that be must be very lenient. :)

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Author	Message
abuayisha Senior Member Joined: 05 October 1999 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4014	Posted: 12 October 2012 at 7:13am
	This religion is one of compassion and mercy, and certainly you are aware of hadith where glad tidings of paradise were given for kindness to animals. ("...and argue with them in a way that is best....") Allah bless you Abu Loren.
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 15 October 2012 at 2:23pm
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* Oh my, I certainly seem to have touched a nerve here. *Originally posted by Abu Loren* How dare you twist my words and use it against me? I said the Prophet (pbuh) did not perform ablution every time he went to the toilet, where did I say that he did not wash his hands? Do you know the difference between ablution and washing one's hands? I did not intend to twist your words. If you had used the word "wudu", I would have understood that you were referring to the Islamic ritual; but the English word "ablution" is just a fancy word meaning to wash or rinse one's body, so from my point of view there really is no difference. And just for the record, the hadith in question makes it clear that Muhammad saw no need to use water (to wash himself ritually or otherwise) after urinating:"Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) urinated and Umar was standing behind him with a jug of water. He said: What is this, Umar? He replied: Water for you to perform ablution with. He said: I have not been commanded to perform ablution every time I urinate. If I were to do so, it would become a sunnah." Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number 0042. *Originally posted by honeto* The Laws, for example here in the US are written in form of books. Why do we need judges, lawyers and experts in the legal system? Do you question why there are these people needed while we already have the law? Judges are needed to settle disputes between litigants. Other legal experts are useful in answering legal questions and explaining how the law might apply in particular contexts. In both cases, the interaction, with the litigants or with the questioners, is an essential element to their function. The plaintiff states his case, the defendent gives his rebuttal, and the judge decides whose argument shall prevail; or the client describes his situation, poses a particular question, and the legal expert offers his opinion as to the legal aspects. This cannot happen after the judges and/or legal experts are dead. If, according to you the Quran, or in this case the book of law has everything in it no further explaining needed, why do we need these highly educated and learned men and women explaining, defending, cross examining, questioning the understanding of what the law in the book means and how it applies! Indeed, there is value in imams and priests and clerics of all kinds who can answer questions and help interpret scripture for the lay person. However, again the interaction is the crucial element that makes them valuable. You can't ask Muhammad a question; and even if you could, his answer cannot take into account your particular circumstances. Somehow you claim to know information about the prophet that I am not aware of like the three stone you claimed he cleaned himself with. Did you pick up those stone and put them in you pocket so you still have their count? Disgusting and disrespectful, you are really getting low Mr. Ron. Disgusting, I agree, and unworthy to appear in a holy scripture, but there it is:"Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When any of you goes to relieve himself, he should take with him three stones to cleans himself, for they will be enough for him." Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number 0040. (See also Sahih Bukhari, Book 4, Numbers 157, 158, 162 and many others.) let me ask you: You do not wipe with a paper if poop touched your hand, or do you? Why would you do that to your bottom. It is still part of your body, unless you think it is not part of your body? Well, let's not get too graphic here -- but my hands need to be clean because they touch all sorts of things that you also touch, and that is how disease spreads. My "bottom" touches nothing that you also touch, so it does not need to be as clean. Mind you, you will be comforted to know that when I am at home or whenever I have the opportunity, I do indeed wash the appropriate body parts after every use. Elsewhere I have to settle for toilet paper, but that is still better than stones. And I always wash my hands afterwards, with soap (which Muhammad apparently did not use); or where even soap is unavailable, I normally carry a small bottle of hand sanitizer. So yes, I believe I am cleaner than any eighth century Muslim -- not meaning any disrespect for Muhammad or his contemporaries, who did the best they could with the resources available to them. Ron, I think you missed the point: Those who made the constitution and many of the laws we follow are dead now. We still follow them, and in case we need interpretation or explanation we have experts who know and believe in them. The Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) brought us laws, he is not with us but those laws are. Knowledgeable and educated experts can help us in light of those laws and their guidelines when we have a question or explanation or for something that is new to us. Like the constitution and the laws, their makers have long gone, but we have judges,lawyers and experts doing the explaining and interpreting where necessary. You wrote in reply to me: "Disgusting, I agree, and unworthy to appear in a holy scripture, but there it is: "Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When any of you goes to relieve himself, he should take with him three stones to cleans himself, for they will be enough for him." Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number 0040. (See also Sahih Bukhari, Book 4, Numbers 157, 158, 162 and many others.) First, Islam is a complete way of life, and that is a proof of that. No issue that affects a person's daily life is missed, yes even cleaning after one's self. Second, you fail to understand that there is a difference between the Holy Quran which is directly from God, and Hadith which is word of men. Also people who refuse to accept Quran, how would Hadith will make any difference for them? So they take both as a mockery. Allah will deal with them Justly one day. So the Hadith is for those who follow Quran, and it will make sense to them. People who do not believe in the Quran take Hadith for a sport. Allah will one day deal with them Justly as well. This issue of washing or cleaning after going to the bathroom is very clear. If you have first looked in the Quran, you would have realized the answer and not needed to quote that Hadith, the purpose of which was if a situation is not addressed in the Quran, you look for it in the Hadith. As I said before, you think by using a paper you are cleaner than a fellow Muslim, you are mistaken. You are even filthier than a Muslim fourteen hundred years ago. And I will explain to you how. Fourteen hundred year ago Muslims were washing after going to the bathroom as they were commanded in the Quran, what you missed and others are pointing out to you is if there is no water available what do you do to keep cleaner. 5:6 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful. A Muslim today or fourteen hundred years ago washes after going to the bathroom simply to follow a command of God (see quote above) and is cleaner than someone like you who like many wipe with a disposable paper thinks is clean, but in fact you simply spread the poop over wider part of your body thinking if you cannot see it, it is gone. Science tells us that washing is cleaner. You needed science to prove that to you fourteen hundered years after God told us that in His book (quote above). As for the hand wash, are you kidding me, if washing after bathroom is important, you think washing hand will be left. You gotta be kidding or you rally are arrogent. Every time, and that's ar least five times a day, a Muslim prepares for Salath he/she do Whudu, and the very first step in that prescribed ritual washing is the washing of the hands. Since I can remember, my parents even though not practicing Muslims had told me to wash my hands before eating, something I do not see here in the US in 21st century. Of course, it is a good practice. Allah wants us to be clean, it is true that a lot of Muslims in poorer country where they have left the Islamic practices are not as clean as Allah wants them to be. But that is the matter of practice, those who believe and practice their belief are in fact cleaner than anyone else even in poverty. The Quran 2:222".... He (Allah)loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." When you can get to the essence of what Allah means clean and accomplish it you get to be 'clean and pure'. Hasan Edited by honeto - 15 October 2012 at 3:01pm
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1409	Posted: 15 October 2012 at 6:30pm
	*Originally posted by honeto* Those who made the constitution and many of the laws we follow are dead now. We still follow them, and in case we need interpretation or explanation we have experts who know and believe in them. We -- or rather you (I'm Canadian) -- don't follow the Constitution because Jefferson and Adams said so. You follow it because it continues to have the broad support of the American people, but it is not cast in stone. On the contrary, it has been amended twenty-seven times since it was enacted a bit more than two centuries ago. After fourteen centuries, how much more amendment might be needed for the hadith? The Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) brought us laws, he is not with us but those laws are. Knowledgeable and educated experts can help us in light of those laws and their guidelines when we have a question or explanation or for something that is new to us. Like the constitution and the laws, their makers have long gone, but we have judges,lawyers and experts doing the explaining and interpreting where necessary. As I said, living experts can be helpful, but they are less so after they die, and the longer they remain dead the less relevant their opinions become. First, Islam is a complete way of life, and that is a proof of that. No issue that affects a person's daily life is missed, yes even cleaning after one's self. I'd be interested in the Quran's discussion of cell phone etiquette. Second, you fail to understand that there is a difference between the Holy Quran which is directly from God, and Hadith which is word of men. On the contrary, that is the whole reason for this discussion! See below. Also people who refuse to accept Quran, how would Hadith will make any difference for them? So they take both as a mockery. As I've said many times, although I do not personally believe in the Quran, I can certainly defend it as a worthy example of holy scripture. I cannot say the same for the hadith. Much of the criticism and hatred (and yes, ridicule) of Islam is due to the hadith. Much of the intolerance and extremism among Muslims also seems to stem from the hadith. IMHO Islam would be a much better religion if Muslims would abide only by the words of God and not "partner" them with the words of men. Fourteen hundred year ago Muslims were washing after going to the bathroom as they were commanded in the Quran, ... Where exactly is it commanded to wash your hands after going to the bathroom? The Quran quote you offered (5:6) is about washing your hands before prayer, not necessarily after every trip to the bathroom. We already have a hadith (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number 0042) which shows that Muhammad did not regard handwashing as compulsory after urinating. ... what you missed and others are pointing out to you is if there is no water available what do you do to keep cleaner. I use a gel-based hand sanitizer. You really think that rubbing your hands in "clean sand" (whatever that is) or dirt () is going to make them cleaner? Edited by Ron Webb - 15 October 2012 at 6:32pm
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 16 October 2012 at 2:15am
	I've finally realised that it's not worth engaging with this Ron Webb character. He twists everything we say to suit his atheist and scientific belief and he will lead the believers away from the Straight Path. He is stealthily making fun of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and Islam as a whole. My advise for everybody is to just ignore him.
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Friendship Senior Member Joined: 24 August 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 883	Posted: 16 October 2012 at 3:22am
	Assalamu alaika Abu Loren. Indeed you are right to ignore Ronn Webb as I did earlier. But let him realize that he is created to understand Allah and enter paradise. Science and art have never failed to prove the existence of the Supreme Being the G-d of Abraham who rescued the Children of Israel from bondage in Egypt. I have discussed with the rabbis and they explained to me that the reason behind the subjugation of the Children of Israel by the Egyptians was as a result of their then deviation from the Torah or the Islam of Jacob. We have a lot to learn from the life history of the Children of Israel. This is the standard set by Allah. We shall perpetually remain in disquiet and uncertainty fear and recession if we do not turn to the G-d of Abraham and Moses. This is what Muhammad emphasized and taught mankind. Let the likes of Ronn Webb stop reading the Qur'an and revert to reading the history of Muhammad and compare it with the world before him. The population of humanists, agnostics atheists is small and cannot influence peace and stability in the world. But we have given enough examples for us to be listened and made ambassadors of peace. All interfaith dialogue has failed because none of the Muslim participants is the head of the Caliph. Allah says in Qur'an 24:40; ومن لم يجعل الله له نورا فما له من نور Meaning: Let mankind examine his history from Adam to Jesus son of Maryam honestly and carefully. Were there a time mankind got salvation without the Decree/Command and Law of Allah through a prophet or messenger he raised from that folk? The meaning of light applying the concept of secularism means removal of unemployment, recession depression, Taliban, al-Qaeda, the manufacture of lethal weapons for mass destruction and all the stings and pains dislike by the soul. Ronn and their likes with understand the literal translation: And he for whom Allah has not appointed light, for him there is no light. My question is: before Allah created the light, what was the status of the world? Let us listen to the experts and put into practice their current translation of the Qur'an. We have to start afresh and leave distortions. This is the precise teaching of Muhammad Rasulullah. Friendship on behalf of Muhammad Rasulullah.
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 16 October 2012 at 9:33am
	I agree, the answers are there, yet he is just finding ways to look other ways because he wants to mislead himself (a sign of disbelief) and mislead others with him (role of Satan). He refuses to use common sense, and he ignore facts just so he can keep on going, assuming that somehow he has the edge. Who is he bluffing? Hasan Edited by honeto - 16 October 2012 at 9:36am
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Usmani Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 07 September 2006 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 143	Posted: 16 October 2012 at 11:12am
	He is here for years, instead for getting light of Islam from here on islamicity, he is getting more towards darkness.Hidaya comes from God Almighty alone and when any body talks bad about someone to whom God loves too much how can he will get the light. See what Allah says in Quran to the companion of Prophet (peace and mercy of Allah upon Him) O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم), nor speak aloud to him in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be rendered fruitless while you perceive not.( سورة الحجرات , Al-Hujraat, Chapter #49, Verse #2) Prophet (peace and mercy of Allah upon Him) is no longer here but Allah is, being a partcipant here we are putting our self in a great danger while he is saying all kind of nonsence about Him.He is blind but we are not. Edited by Usmani - 16 October 2012 at 11:16am
	Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds
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Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 16 October 2012 at 11:56am
	*Originally posted by Usmani* He is here for years, instead for getting light of Islam from here on islamicity, he is getting more towards darkness. Yes indeed it's amazing how an atheist lasted four years on this forum. The powers that be must be very lenient. :)
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