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Interfaith Dialogue
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2012 at 3:15pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

The things he said are not changeable because if one uses one's logic then you can discern what is right and what is wrong.

But you just gave an example of something that did change.  And there are other contradictory things as well, as you acknowledge.  So given that, how can you trust anything in the hadith?  What if he later changed his mind about an existing hadith, but the changed version never made it into any of the standard collections?

As you are an atheist and an unbeliever you wouldn't understand the points I'm trying to make.

Ad hominems don't help your argument.

He does care how we pray or what we say because He says in the Holy Qur'an that there is an excellent example in the Prophet (pbuh).

Right, it says an excellent example.  It doesn't say the only example or even necessarily the best example.  (On the other hand, it does say that the Quran is the best Hadith, and the only one you need.)
 
There are many excellent examples of love poems, and I suppose if you are unimaginative you could simply recite one of those to your wife; but wouldn't she be more impressed if you recited to her your own poem, perhaps inspired by those "excellent examples" but expressed in your own words?

Ablution is a ritual and Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala wants all of his believers to be ritualistic. Look at what the Children of Israel had to go through, the priests for example had to go through meticulous processes before prayer and sacrifice. If you just do it anyhow then it is not from God, is it?

Where in the Quran does it say that Allah wants his believers to be ritualistic?  Where does it say that your ablution has to be "from God" (whatever that means)? 
 
We don't need to know how he urinated but we do need to know that after he has urinated that he performed ablution before prayer. I don't how well you know the Hadiths but there is one where he went to relieve himself and the people asked him why he did not perform ablution and he replied that Our Lord only wants him to perform ablution before prayer, otherwise we would perform ablution every single time we to to the bath room.
 
IMHO we don't need to know anything about his bathroom habits; but if Muhammad did not wash his hands every single time he went to the bathroom, then please tell me you don't emulate him in that. Shocked
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2012 at 12:03am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Abu Loren

The things he said are not changeable because if one uses one's logic then you can discern what is right and what is wrong.

But you just gave an example of something that did change.  And there are other contradictory things as well, as you acknowledge.  So given that, how can you trust anything in the hadith?  What if he later changed his mind about an existing hadith, but the changed version never made it into any of the standard collections?

As you are an atheist and an unbeliever you wouldn't understand the points I'm trying to make.

Ad hominems don't help your argument.

He does care how we pray or what we say because He says in the Holy Qur'an that there is an excellent example in the Prophet (pbuh).

Right, it says an excellent example.  It doesn't say the only example or even necessarily the best example.  (On the other hand, it does say that the Quran is the best Hadith, and the only one you need.)
 
There are many excellent examples of love poems, and I suppose if you are unimaginative you could simply recite one of those to your wife; but wouldn't she be more impressed if you recited to her your own poem, perhaps inspired by those "excellent examples" but expressed in your own words?

Ablution is a ritual and Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala wants all of his believers to be ritualistic. Look at what the Children of Israel had to go through, the priests for example had to go through meticulous processes before prayer and sacrifice. If you just do it anyhow then it is not from God, is it?

Where in the Quran does it say that Allah wants his believers to be ritualistic?  Where does it say that your ablution has to be "from God" (whatever that means)? 
 
We don't need to know how he urinated but we do need to know that after he has urinated that he performed ablution before prayer. I don't how well you know the Hadiths but there is one where he went to relieve himself and the people asked him why he did not perform ablution and he replied that Our Lord only wants him to perform ablution before prayer, otherwise we would perform ablution every single time we to to the bath room.
 
IMHO we don't need to know anything about his bathroom habits; but if Muhammad did not wash his hands every single time he went to the bathroom, then please tell me you don't emulate him in that. Shocked
 
OK Mr. Ron you win!
 
It looks like nobody can get through to you and we will only go around in cirlces with you standing your ground and me mine. Good luck.
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 8:17am
Sahih International

O you who have believed, when you rise to [perform] prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.
5:6

The above is taken from the Holy Qur'an and reading it an atheist would probably say one can perform ablutions any way they please as the instructions are not specific. However, it was given to the Prophet (pbuh) to explain these things and to show people how it's done. As I've said previously elsewhere, the Holy Bible does not go into the nitty gritty of things as the Archangel Gabreil (AS( taught the Propeht (pbuh) all that he and we needed to know.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by honeto

I am not sure if you are serious about this, you give me impression that you are not.


I am serious, but I don't think you understand me. I'm talking about the hadith, not the Quran.


Of course the laws are from God. Ten commandments of 'Moses' are not actually his, they were given to him by God. He is gone but every follower of the OT still live by them. And by following those commands you are telling me that those people are worshiping Moses? Are you out of your mind?


Of course the Quran is from God (or at least that is the claim). So were the Ten Commandments (again, allegedly). But the hadith are the words of Muhammad, not God. Allah said many times that the Quran is the best Hadith, and the only one you need. It should not have a "partner" text of human words and deeds, compiled by other humans. Even Muhammad himself instructed his scribes not to write down his own words.


Really, this is so obvious I have a hard time understanding why so few Muslims see it. Muhammad says, "don't write any of this down" -- and the scribes dutifully write, "And Muhammad said, 'don't write this down.'" It's like a silly joke.


You responded above: "The universe obeys the law of gravity, not the law of Newton." Right, but when someone studies and applies that law (Newton's law)in everyday science, according to you they are worshiping Newton. That's what you are saying.


No, I'm saying it's as if Newton's students had said to themselves, "This Newton guy is so smart about science that I'm going to mimic everything he ever says and does in his entire life" -- from his clothing choices to his cynophobia tohow he goes to the bathroom, for heaven's sake! It's [IMG]http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley29.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Wacko" />!



Ron,
for a Muslim the Quran is the Word of God, never to be rewritten changed or altered. On the other hand Hadith is word of men about what the prophet did or said. It has to be verified. If a Hadith negates the Quran it cannot be a true Hadith.
Allah says in the Quran about the prophet being an example. Of course the Quran is first. It is like the "Ferdh" and the Hadith is like the Sunnaths and Nawaafil so to speak.
Since Islam is a complete code of life, yes it does matter how prophet lived his life: what the prophet wear was an example, how much and what he ate was an example, how he shared of what he had was an example, how he was to his neighbor was an example, how he treated women was an example, how he treated strangers was an example, how he spoke and talked was an example, how he coped with stress and difficulties was an example. How he behaved in public and private life was an example, how he fulfilled his obligations and duties was an example. How he dealt with enemies, kings, leaders and armies was an example.
How he lived, fulfilled purpose of his life and died was an example.
Let me add word "Excellent" before each time I used the word "example" above.
The Prophet (pbuh) was an excellent Muslim. I, like any Muslim would love to copy that excellent example, only then we can become like him, a good Muslim.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 09 October 2012 at 12:41pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 5:47pm

Originally posted by honeto

Ron,
for a Muslim the Quran is the Word of God, never to be rewritten changed or altered. On the other hand Hadith is word of men about what the prophet did or said. It has to be verified. If a Hadith negates the Quran it cannot be a true Hadith.

And what if it cannot be verified?  If this information is essential to Islam and obligatory for all Muslims, but it is not found in the Quran, then doesn't that by definition make the Quran incomplete?

Is it not more likely that these things are not essential?  If Allah omitted something, it could not have been by accident.  He must have done so intentionally.  Perhaps He truly doesn't care, or perhaps He appreciates the diversity of our individual choices, or perhaps it is better for us to use our own judgement according to the circumstances.  Whatever the reason, surely it is not for any man, including Muhammad, to add essential elements to Allah's religion.  Only a partner to Allah could have the authority to do that.

The Prophet (pbuh) was an excellent Muslim. I, like any Muslim would love to copy that excellent example, only then we can become like him, a good Muslim.

Modern washrooms have facilities far beyond anything Muhammad could have imagined.  Even hand soap was probably unknown to him.  He cleaned himself with three stones, not because stones are superior to toilet paper, but because toilet paper did not exist at the time.  Ditto for indoor plumbing and bidets and hand sanitizer and deodorant and pH-balanced shampoo and electric toothbrushes and fluoride toothpaste and dental floss.

The Prophet may have been an excellent example for his time; but beyond a general appreciation of the importance of cleanliness and hygiene (as the Quran implies), why on earth would anyone follow his example today?  Frankly, if Abu Loren is right that Muhammad did not wash his hands after every trip to the bathroom, then IMHO he is a very poor example by modern standards.
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2012 at 2:43am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Frankly, if Abu Loren is right that Muhammad did not wash his hands after every trip to the bathroom, then IMHO he is a very poor example by modern standards.


How dare you twist my words and use it against me?

I said the Prophet (pbuh) did not perform ablution every time he went to the toilet, where did I say that he did not wash his hands?

Do you know the difference between ablution and washing one's hands?

Frankly, I am getting tired of people debating without any knowledge. It seems very clear now that people here, non muslims, are just expressing their worthless opinions.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2012 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by honeto

Ron, for a Muslim the Quran is the Word of God, never to be rewritten changed or altered. On the other hand Hadith is word of men about what the prophet did or said. It has to be verified. If a Hadith negates the Quran it cannot be a true Hadith.


And what if it cannot be verified? If this information is essential to Islamand obligatory for all Muslims, but it is not found in the Quran, then doesn't that by definition make the Quran incomplete?


Is it not more likely that these things are not essential? If Allah omitted something, it could not have been by accident. He must have done so intentionally. Perhaps He truly doesn't care, or perhaps He appreciates the diversity of our individual choices, or perhaps it is better for us to use our own judgement according to the circumstances. Whatever the reason, surely it is not for any man, including Muhammad, to add essential elements to Allah's religion. Only a partner to Allah could have the authority to do that.


The Prophet (pbuh) was an excellent Muslim. I, like any Muslim would love to copy that excellent example, only then we can become like him, a good Muslim.


Modern washrooms have facilities far beyond anything Muhammad could have imagined. Even hand soap was probably unknown to him. He cleaned himself with three stones, not because stones are superior to toilet paper, but because toilet paper did not exist at the time. Ditto for indoor plumbing and bidets and hand sanitizer and deodorant and pH-balanced shampoo and electric toothbrushes and fluoride toothpaste and dental floss.


The Prophet may have been an excellent example for his time; but beyond a general appreciation of the importance of cleanliness and hygiene (as the Quran implies), why on earth would anyone follow his example today? Frankly, if Abu Loren is right that Muhammad did not wash his hands after every trip to the bathroom, then IMHO he is a very poor example by modern standards.

Ron,
I must warn you that you better not add to what I or anyone writes in our replies to you pretending that's what we are saying. It is rude, and disrespectful not to mention it exposes your ill intentions.
Of course if something cannot be verified or something we are not sure of, Allah says in the Quran to leave it, not do it. For example if a Muslim does not know whether Lobster is Halal to eat or not, based on what I mentioned above, it will be safe to not eat it until the knowledge can prove that is Halal. This is just an example.
The Quran is complete, the prophet is a complete prophet, which means he helps us to understand what it means to be "mutaki" or a good Muslim.
We have given you and will continue to give you more and more examples, that's our job. You understand them or they pass over your head, that will not affect us but only you, thank God for that.
The Laws, for example here in the US are written in form of books. Why do we need judges, lawyers and experts in the legal system? Do you question why there are these people needed while we already have the law?
If, according to you the Quran, or in this case the book of law has everything in it no further explaining needed, why do we need these highly educated and learned men and women explaining, defending, cross examining, questioning the understanding of what the law in the book means and how it applies!
Why not a driver or a plumber or a doctor, or a pilot can just directly apply that law from the book? Why we need the Judges, lawyers and so on?

Somehow you claim to know information about the prophet that I am not aware of like the three stone you claimed he cleaned himself with. Did you pick up those stone and put them in you pocket so you still have their count?
Disgusting and disrespectful, you are really getting low Mr. Ron.
With all those modern facilities you are filthier than any Muslim of that time. Modern bathroom may have facilities better than before, but people like you still come out with filth on your body. Thank God that a Muslim, and like I said prophet was an Excellent Muslim, washed after going to the bathroom, wile you just wipe, basically painting a thin layer of filth, poop to be exact over your bottom. You do not see it, but that dos not mean its not there, but you say you feel clean.
Trust me, I used to do that (wipe, not wash)in my days of ignorance, but thank God, now if I don't wash I feel unclean, and cannot offer my Salath until wash that filth off. For you its clean, for a Muslim it is filthy.
let me ask you: You do not wipe with a paper if poop touched your hand, or do you? Why would you do that to your bottom. It is still part of your body, unless you think it is not part of your body? And a Muslim's body is not clean until it is washed, free of that thin layer of poop that you feel proud of having, and in arrogance saying you are cleaner than a Muslim. How ignorant we get when we learn four words and have some devices in our hands and pockets. You want to wait to really learn when God will take back from you all of those faculties, one by one just like He gave them to you one by one?
If I, following Mohammed (pbuh) am physically cleaner than you in these modern times while I am an ordinary Muslim, to compare that to someone who I follow, who was an excellent example in every aspect is like showing a candle light to the sun, you cannot even out shine that candle, an ordinary Muslim.   Truly, he was a great "Excellent" example, as I only do my salath five times a day, he used to do a lot of extra salaths, and you know the washing and cleaning that is required to offer Salath he used to go through..! You cannot even come closer because you may know what is clean, but you do not have the essence and meaning of what it really is. You think wiping was clean. Do some research and you will find out washing is better, and Islam teaches washing, the prophet told that in fact fourteen centuries ago.
Hasan



Edited by honeto - 10 October 2012 at 3:43pm
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2012 at 6:38pm

Oh my, I certainly seem to have touched a nerve here. Embarrassed I do apologize to all for having inadvertently caused offense, but the facts are the facts.


Originally posted by Abu Loren

How dare you twist my words and use it against me?

I said the Prophet (pbuh) did not perform ablution every time he went to the toilet, where did I say that he did not wash his hands?
Do you know the difference between ablution and washing one's hands?

I did not intend to twist your words.  If you had used the word "wudu", I would have understood that you were referring to the Islamic ritual; but the English word "ablution" is just a fancy word meaning to wash or rinse one's body, so from my point of view there really is no difference.  And just for the record, the hadith in question makes it clear that Muhammad saw no need to use water (to wash himself ritually or otherwise) after urinating:
"Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) urinated and Umar was standing behind him with a jug of water. He said: What is this, Umar? He replied: Water for you to perform ablution with. He said: I have not been commanded to perform ablution every time I urinate. If I were to do so, it would become a sunnah."
 
Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number 0042.

 
Originally posted by honeto

The Laws, for example here in the US are written in form of books. Why do we need judges, lawyers and experts in the legal system? Do you question why there are these people needed while we already have the law?

Judges are needed to settle disputes between litigants.  Other legal experts are useful in answering legal questions and explaining how the law might apply in particular contexts.  In both cases, the interaction, with the litigants or with the questioners, is an essential element to their function.  The plaintiff states his case, the defendent gives his rebuttal, and the judge decides whose argument shall prevail; or the client describes his situation, poses a particular question, and the legal expert offers his opinion as to the legal aspects.  This cannot happen after the judges and/or legal experts are dead.

If, according to you the Quran, or in this case the book of law has everything in it no further explaining needed, why do we need these highly educated and learned men and women explaining, defending, cross examining, questioning the understanding of what the law in the book means and how it applies!

Indeed, there is value in imams and priests and clerics of all kinds who can answer questions and help interpret scripture for the lay person.  However, again the interaction is the crucial element that makes them valuable.  You can't ask Muhammad a question; and even if you could, his answer cannot take into account your particular circumstances.

Somehow you claim to know information about the prophet that I am not aware of like the three stone you claimed he cleaned himself with. Did you pick up those stone and put them in you pocket so you still have their count?
Disgusting and disrespectful, you are really getting low Mr. Ron.

Disgusting, I agree, and unworthy to appear in a holy scripture, but there it is:
"Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When any of you goes to relieve himself, he should take with him three stones to cleans himself, for they will be enough for him."
Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 1, Number 0040.  (See also Sahih Bukhari, Book 4, Numbers 157, 158, 162 and many others.)

let me ask you: You do not wipe with a paper if poop touched your hand, or do you? Why would you do that to your bottom. It is still part of your body, unless you think it is not part of your body?

Well, let's not get too graphic here -- but my hands need to be clean because they touch all sorts of things that you also touch, and that is how disease spreads.  My "bottom" touches nothing that you also touch, so it does not need to be as clean.  Mind you, you will be comforted to know that when I am at home or whenever I have the opportunity, I do indeed wash the appropriate body parts after every use.

Elsewhere I have to settle for toilet paper, but that is still better than stones.  And I always wash my hands afterwards, with soap (which Muhammad apparently did not use); or where even soap is unavailable, I normally carry a small bottle of hand sanitizer. So yes, I believe I am cleaner than any eighth century Muslim -- not meaning any disrespect for Muhammad or his contemporaries, who did the best they could with the resources available to them.



Edited by Ron Webb - 10 October 2012 at 6:38pm
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