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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: At Your Service, Oh Mohammad Post Reply Post New Topic
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Friendship
 
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2012 at 2:42pm
Assalamu alaika Ronn.
 
You are correct. It is lack of understanding the role of Muhammad that leads to all this nonsense we see. Yes Muhammad is dead as echoed by Abubakar. But he is still alive for he is still our administrator and guide, but dead among his followers.
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2012 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by honeto

Obeying the prophets is of course not the same. Obeying the prophet is like obeying the law, the authority. The prophets were the authority, the law installed by God on earth.


Obeying the prophet is like obeying the law only if the prophet is (or is like) the law.  But only Allah is the law, and there is no other like Him.  To believe otherwise is shirk.


P.S.: On the other hand, if you mean secular law, I agree completely.  IMHO Muhammad was a human, secular leader.  Like all such leaders, his authority did not extend beyond his lifetime.

 

By following Newton's law of motion or gravity, no one is worshiping Newton, while according to your argument they are!

According to my argument, Newton was merely the "messenger" for the law of gravity.  The universe obeys the law of gravity, not the law of Newton.



Ron,
I am not sure if you are serious about this, you give me impression that you are not.
Of course the laws are from God. Ten commandments of 'Moses' are not actually his, they were given to him by God. He is gone but every follower of the OT still live by them. And by following those commands you are telling me that those people are worshiping Moses? Are you out of your mind?
"There is none worthy of worship, but One and only God" is a command that God renewed with humanity. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was the one who delivered that command to mankind last time. You are telling me to following that command is to worship the propehet? Are you out of your mind, or you are just repeating it for no reason but to make an argument?
Have some sense Ron.

You responded above: "The universe obeys the law of gravity, not the law of Newton." Right, but when someone studies and applies that law (Newton's law)in everyday science, according to you they are worshiping Newton. That's what you are saying.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 03 October 2012 at 2:56pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2012 at 5:05pm

Originally posted by honeto

I am not sure if you are serious about this, you give me impression that you are not.

I am serious, but I don't think you understand me.  I'm talking about the hadith, not the Quran.

Of course the laws are from God. Ten commandments of 'Moses' are not actually his, they were given to him by God. He is gone but every follower of the OT still live by them. And by following those commands you are telling me that those people are worshiping Moses? Are you out of your mind?

Of course the Quran is from God (or at least that is the claim).  So were the Ten Commandments (again, allegedly).  But the hadith are the words of Muhammad, not God.  Allah said many times that the Quran is the best Hadith, and the only one you need.  It should not have a "partner" text of human words and deeds, compiled by other humans.  Even Muhammad himself instructed his scribes not to write down his own words.

Really, this is so obvious I have a hard time understanding why so few Muslims see it.  Muhammad says, "don't write any of this down" -- and the scribes dutifully write, "And Muhammad said, 'don't write this down.'"  It's like a silly joke.

You responded above: "The universe obeys the law of gravity, not the law of Newton." Right, but when someone studies and applies that law (Newton's law)in everyday science, according to you they are worshiping Newton. That's what you are saying.

No, I'm saying it's as if Newton's students had said to themselves, "This Newton guy is so smart about science that I'm going to mimic everything he ever says and does in his entire life" -- from his clothing choices to his cynophobia to how he goes to the bathroom, for heaven's sake! It's Wacko!

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Usmani Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2012 at 11:34pm

Four blind people went to visit zoo. They move around all over the zoo and guide was telling them that how all the animals’ looks like. These all animals were inside the security fence. At end of the visit, guide took all of the four blind persons near to the elephant and told them (blind persons) that this is elephant and since elephant is not inside the fence, you all got the chance to touch him as well. They all made use of this opportunity.

Once these blind persons went home, they were discussing about their trip of zoo with each other. One who touches the leg of elephant, telling that entire elephant is like straight thin stick. The other blind person who touches the head of elephant said no, you are wrong, elephant is like a huge foodball.The third blind person who touches tail of the elephant he was not convince with other two person’s statements and so the forth one as well. Only a person who has the eyes can correctly answer that how an elephant look like because he is able to see the complete elephant.

People who are not Muslim and not just that but for years of their study and discussions they are not able to recognize their creator and does not have command over the Quran and Sunnah, if they thought that Muslims are not correctly following their religion and they are wrong on some places than they are doing the same mistake as the four blinds are doing in above story.

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Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2012 at 4:12am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

But the hadith are the words of Muhammad, not God.  Allah said many times that the Quran is the best Hadith, and the only one you need.  It should not have a "partner" text of human words and deeds, compiled by other humans.  Even Muhammad himself instructed his scribes not to write down his own words.

Really, this is so obvious I have a hard time understanding why so few Muslims see it.  Muhammad says, "don't write any of this down" -- and the scribes dutifully write, "And Muhammad said, 'don't write this down.'"  It's like a silly joke.



As'alaamu Alaikkum Mr. Ron

Yes, you are right when you say that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said not to write down anything of what he says. However, it seems that he changed his mind because of the following hadith. As you probably know the Hadiths are not in any chronological order and from an uninitiated eye it does seem to have contradictions. Without these Hadiths the Muslims wouldn't know how to pray or what to say on prayers, they wouldn't know how to perform ablution and they wouldn't have known the meaning to many Qur'anic verses. You'd probably think that all of this is from his own whims and desires but the truth is that Archangel Gabriel (AS) was in constant contact with the Prophet (pbuh) and it was indeed Archangel Gabriel (AS) who showed Muhammed (pbuh) everything.

For your information I used to be a doubter of Hadiths too until I started reading them. In my honest opinion, what is contained therein, a normal human being cannot possibly produce these works and explain what has been achieved by the Prophet (pbuh). Have you read them at all?

Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:
I used to write everything which I heard from the Apostle of Allah (). I intended (by it) to memorise it. The Quraysh prohibited me saying: Do you write everything that you hear from him while the Apostle of Allah () is a human being: he speaks in anger and pleasure? So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Apostle of Allah (). He signalled with his finger to him mouth and said: Write, by Him in Whose hand my soul lies, only right comes out from it.

Edited by Abu Loren - 07 October 2012 at 4:14am
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2012 at 8:30am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Yes, you are right when you say that Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said not to write down anything of what he says. However, it seems that he changed his mind because of the following hadith.

Ah, "he changed his mind."  So the things that Muhammad said are changeable and not intended to apply for all time.  Thank you for illustrating my point.

As you probably know the Hadiths are not in any chronological order and from an uninitiated eye it does seem to have contradictions.

Not "seem" to have contradictions.  They do have contradictions, and lots of them.  You just mentioned one.  I won't belabour the point, but I'm sure you know it's true.

Without these Hadiths the Muslims wouldn't know how to pray or what to say on prayers, they wouldn't know how to perform ablution and they wouldn't have known the meaning to many Qur'anic verses.

If Allah didn't tell you how to pray or what to say, perhaps that is because He doesn't care how you pray or what you say, as long as you are sincere.  In fact, perhaps He'd rather that you decide for yourself.  When you express your love for your wife, does she have to tell you what to say or how to say it?

Same goes for ablution.  Honestly, if you're a grown-up man or woman and you can't figure out for yourself how to wash your hands and face without detailed instructions, then something is seriously wrong.  As for various obscure Quranic verses, perhaps they were meant to be obscure and open to interpretation.  We should not expect to know everything, should we?

You'd probably think that all of this is from his own whims and desires but the truth is that Archangel Gabriel (AS) was in constant contact with the Prophet (pbuh) and it was indeed Archangel Gabriel (AS) who showed Muhammed (pbuh) everything.

Or so it says in the hadith, right? Wink

For your information I used to be a doubter of Hadiths too until I started reading them. In my honest opinion, what is contained therein, a normal human being cannot possibly produce these works and explain what has been achieved by the Prophet (pbuh). Have you read them at all?

I have read enough of them to see that they are contradictory, unreliable and frankly unworthy to be considered holy scripture.  (Do we really need to know how Muhammad urinated?  Seriously??)

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2012 at 11:29am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

[/QUOTE]

Ah, "he changed his mind." So the things that Muhammad said are changeable and not intended to apply for all time. Thank you for illustrating my point.

I haven't changed my mind because I've never said they did not contain contradictions. In it's defence I would say that these are collected by different people and some could have been mistaken or the Prophet (pbuh) said different things to different people. He himself said that he was only a human being.

The things he said are not changeable because if one uses one's logic then you can discern what is right and what is wrong. As you are an atheist and an unbeliever you wouldn't understand the points I'm trying to make.

If Allah didn't tell you how to pray or what to say, perhaps that is because He doesn't care how you pray or what you say, as long as you are sincere. In fact, perhaps He'd rather that you decide for yourself. When you express your love for your wife, does she have to tell you what to say or how to say it?



He does care how we pray or what we say because He says in the Holy Qur'an that there is an excellent example in the Prophet (pbuh). The Holy Qur'an does not go into the nitty gritty details of these things because the Holy Qur'an is succint and to the point. The whole reason Archangel Gabriel (AS) used to visit the Prophet (pbuh) is just exactly to teach him these things. I don't know if you aware but many of the du'a or supplication that we make are mostly taken from the Holy Qur'an itself.

Ablution is a ritual and Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala wants all of his believers to be ritualistic. Look at what the Children of Israel had to go through, the priests for example had to go through meticulous processes before prayer and sacrifice. If you just do it anyhow then it is not from God, is it?

I have read enough of them to see that they are contradictory, unreliable and frankly unworthy to be considered holy scripture. (Do we really need to know how Muhammad urinated? Seriously??)



I love debating with atheists because of their arrogance and the way they think they know more than God. I'm not just talking about you as individual but atheists as a whole. We don't need to know how he urinated but we do need to know that after he has urinated that he performed ablution before prayer. I don't how well you know the Hadiths but there is one where he went to relieve himself and the people asked him why he did not perform ablution and he replied that Our Lord only wants him to perform ablution before prayer, otherwise we would perform ablution every single time we to to the bath room.

You probably don't understand the point but The Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the prophet go together hand in hand. All muslims try to emulate the Prophet (pbuh) because he left us the best example of how we should live. Even God Almighty tells us that in the prophet (pbuh) is the best example for the believers to follow.

Wouldn't it be a glorious day when people like you, Caringheart, bunter, Kish et all begin to understand the message and take the Shahada?

Edited by Abu Loren - 07 October 2012 at 11:34am
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2012 at 12:01pm
Assalamu alaikum.

It is unfortunate that majority consider the Qur'an as a mere fairy tale or a book from one possessed without aim direction etc. It's uncountable challenges deafening and silencing the whole world is enough evidence of its source. Allah did not say that one should read the Qur'an and believe in it. He (Allah) undoubtedly says: If you do not believe in it then produce one similar to it or better than it.
You are correct Abu Loren that they think they know better than God despite his negation of that in many verses of the Qur'an. Qur'an is not a book meant for those with low I.Q, deaf dumb and the blind. It is not all that will be questioned about how the physical fails to indicate the sovereignty and God-head of the Lord and G-d of Abraham. How should they not consider for example Qur'an 46:3; "Think you about all that you invoke besides Allah? Show me (Muhammad). What have they have created of the earth? Or have they a share in the creation of the heavens? (Here Allah specifically mentions the heavens without mentioning the earth for it differs from a suspension bridge in that it has no supporting  pillars). Bring me a Book (revealed before me), or some trace of knowledge , if you are truthful."
There is no benefit in going outside the composition of the Qur'an.

Friendship.

 
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