IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: At Your Service, Oh Mohammad

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 29 September 2012 at 8:15pm

Originally posted by honeto

Addressing the Prophet (pbuh) as if he is listening is not right and that's the impression I get when I read:
"O Prophet" . He seem to address the prophet, and I guess that's where I see wrong. It reminds me of our Shia brothers who call upon Ali(RA) as if he can hear them.

Addressing a prayer to the Prophet is certainly the most glaring issue, but isn't there a similar problem with the whole idea of "serving" Muhammad? I thought the duty of all Muslims is to serve Allah and only Allah. Some might argue that to serve Muhammad is indirectly to serve Allah, but the same argument could be made that a prayer to Muhammad is indirectly a prayer to Allah. Allah does not want or need intermediaries or "partners", whether for prayer or allegiance. Certainly if the goal of all Muslims is to emulate Muhammad, then one could hardly imagine Muhammad praying to himself or pledging allegiance to himself.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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truthnowcome

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Posted: 29 September 2012 at 9:33pm

Originally posted by honeto

It is possible that Nasrallah in emotions went a bit too far, or these words are misquoted or mistranslated?

""O Messenger of Allah, my blood, family, wealth and everything I was given by God are sacrifices to your dignity, veneration and honor. Let the whole world hear these words, O Prophet, we die for you, my soul and my blood are at your service. Allah is a witness to what we say, the blood of our martyrs, the wounds of our injured, our demolished homes all witness, we will sacrifice everything for your sake O Prophet."
Addressing the Prophet (pbuh) as if he is listening is not right and that's the impression I get when I read:
"O Prophet" . He seem to address the prophet, and I guess that's where I see wrong. It reminds me of our Shia brothers who call upon Ali(RA) as if he can hear them.
Just my thoughts, we human can make mistakes, and if someone with knowledge can correct us, it is appreciated.
Hasan

Salaam Br. This is not a mistake; Nasrullah know what the Masons is up to, he know that the only way to destroy Islam is to destroy the prophet"s integrity. You dont know the hadith to the effect: "Allah will not remove Islam by removing the books rather by removing the scholars." If you destroy their integrity no one will listen to them and follow them.

Br. zainool

LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!

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honeto

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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 2:50pm

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by honeto

Addressing the Prophet (pbuh) as if he is listening is not right and that's the impression I get when I read: "O Prophet" . He seem to address the prophet, and I guess that's where I see wrong. It reminds me of our Shia brothers who call upon Ali(RA) as if he can hear them.

Ron,
now that's mixing things up. There is a difference, if someone is praying to any prophet, or a saint or any person directly or indirectly, it is haram or forbidden in Islam.
Obeying the prophets is of course not the same. Obeying the prophet is like obeying the law, the authority. The prophets were the authority, the law installed by God on earth.
Kneeling down, bowing down, kissing, praying and asking for something in front of a man made statue or a God made creature is forbidden in Islam and Muslims do not do that.
By following Newton's law of motion or gravity, no one is worshiping Newton, while according to your argument they are!
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 02 October 2012 at 2:52pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 02 October 2012 at 7:02pm

Originally posted by honeto

Obeying the prophets is of course not the same. Obeying the prophet is like obeying the law, the authority. The prophets were the authority, the law installed by God on earth.

Obeying the prophet is like obeying the law only if the prophet is (or is like) the law. But only Allah is the law, and there is no other like Him. To believe otherwise is shirk.

P.S.: On the other hand, if you mean secular law, I agree completely. IMHO Muhammad was a human, secular leader. Like all such leaders, his authority did not extend beyond his lifetime.

By following Newton's law of motion or gravity, no one is worshiping Newton, while according to your argument they are!

According to my argument, Newton was merely the "messenger" for the law of gravity. The universe obeys the law of gravity, not the law of Newton.

Edited by Ron Webb - 02 October 2012 at 7:10pm

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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truthnowcome

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Posted: 03 October 2012 at 12:07am

Br. Hasan, I thing we have already explained the Islamic position on what is shirk; what you are doing now is giving Ron WEBB a plat form for what he is here for.

Let me explain what is going on if you didn’t recognize it yet. The Masons is preparing an all out attack on ISLAM. They already got all their Military in position for this event. If you notice they already launch of poster in the subway, and the cartoon and now the movie; the reason for that is before they launch an all out attack they first defame Islam so when we cry for the world to help no one will listen to us. Next, the turn Salafies against Shia to help them achieve their goal in wining with less booth on the ground like they did in Afghanistan and Iraq, what is important to know is both Sunny ans Shia is going down; they are preparing a mass murdering. Do you notice on the news the “SARS” VIRUS APPEARS IN SAUDI? COINCIDENT? NO! When the would have launch the war on Iran most likely they will release an airborne strain of the SARS in Saudi and blame it on “MUTATION OF THE VIRUS” WHICH WOULD BE AN ALL OUT WAR ON ISLAM; TRUST ME BROTHER, THESE PEOPLE ARE SATAN WORSHIPER. ROM WEBB IS A MOUTH PEACE FOR THEM (I MEAN NO OFFEND TO HIM).

Br. Zainool

LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 03 October 2012 at 4:28am

Thank you, Br. Zainool. That's the funniest post I've read in years! (And I mean no offense to you.

)

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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m.sumair
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Posted: 03 October 2012 at 10:30am

Originally posted by Ron Webb

"messenger" for the law of
gravity. The universe obeys the
law of gravity, not the law of
Newton.

Messenger is the right word, Ron. The Universe obeys the Laws of God. Everybody, everybody except humans are bound to obey the Law of God. Humans do have choice, either to obey or disobey Him, but obeying God is best for you, if you know it. Humans have weak memories, he constantly forgets of what he was told, he requires consistent written materials that can refresh his memories about obeying God.

So, Messengers were sent on the earth to remind the Law to the people, but as it is with human, he is so weak, he requires interpretation and explainations to understand the Law. So the Messengers took up the task as they had best understanding of Laws as a human being, they interprete the Laws and it was decided that, this will be followed until next next Messenger arrives.

So, we obey the Laws of Allah by understanding those Laws interprete by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). He was the Last (and Final) Messenger of Allah and we obey the Laws of Allah which are describe in detail by Prophet.

Our Love and Passion for Muhammad (PBUH) is very imense. You see, you can't obey the Laws unless you utmostly respect and love those who bring the Law to you, who make it understand to you. Therefore We have utmost respect for Prophet (though we are weak in practices) and we get imensely hurt and emtionally distrubed when we hear/see such things in the name of Prophet.
....I'm quite sure you are not paralelling the Laws of God with the man-made Laws.

And by-the-way what you have asked in your original post, it is not a Shrik..and it has been explained to you in a quite detail up here.

Edited by m.sumair - 03 October 2012 at 11:06am

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honeto

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Posted: 03 October 2012 at 2:37pm

[/QUOTE]

Br. Zainool,
I know there are people out there that have a different purpose of life than us. We cannot be like them, and they cannot be like us unless God wills.
Still God tells us to discuss with them in an excellent way with logic and reasoning and the truth that God Almighty has sent.
We hope to meet our Lord on day, they deny that and they would like us to follow them, at least that is their intention. We believe it is our and their intentions and actions that will matter in the hereafter, they don't believe that. When they realize it, it will be too late to fix, they will be in great loss, unless they seek guidance now!
Jazakallah brother,
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 03 October 2012 at 2:41pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Topic: At Your Service, Oh Mohammad
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Author	Message
Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1401	Posted: 29 September 2012 at 8:15pm
	*Originally posted by honeto* Addressing the Prophet (pbuh) as if he is listening is not right and that's the impression I get when I read: "O Prophet" . He seem to address the prophet, and I guess that's where I see wrong. It reminds me of our Shia brothers who call upon Ali(RA) as if he can hear them. Addressing a prayer to the Prophet is certainly the most glaring issue, but isn't there a similar problem with the whole idea of "serving" Muhammad? I thought the duty of all Muslims is to serve Allah and only Allah. Some might argue that to serve Muhammad is indirectly to serve Allah, but the same argument could be made that a prayer to Muhammad is indirectly a prayer to Allah. Allah does not want or need intermediaries or "partners", whether for prayer or allegiance. Certainly if the goal of all Muslims is to emulate Muhammad, then one could hardly imagine Muhammad praying to himself or pledging allegiance to himself.
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged

truthnowcome Senior Member Joined: 05 April 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 683	Posted: 29 September 2012 at 9:33pm
	*Originally posted by honeto* It is possible that Nasrallah in emotions went a bit too far, or these words are misquoted or mistranslated? ""O Messenger of Allah, my blood, family, wealth and everything I was given by God are sacrifices to your dignity, veneration and honor. Let the whole world hear these words, O Prophet, we die for you, my soul and my blood are at your service. Allah is a witness to what we say, the blood of our martyrs, the wounds of our injured, our demolished homes all witness, we will sacrifice everything for your sake O Prophet." Addressing the Prophet (pbuh) as if he is listening is not right and that's the impression I get when I read: "O Prophet" . He seem to address the prophet, and I guess that's where I see wrong. It reminds me of our Shia brothers who call upon Ali(RA) as if he can hear them. Just my thoughts, we human can make mistakes, and if someone with knowledge can correct us, it is appreciated. Hasan Salaam Br. This is not a mistake; Nasrullah know what the Masons is up to, he know that the only way to destroy Islam is to destroy the prophet"s integrity. You dont know the hadith to the effect: "Allah will not remove Islam by removing the books rather by removing the scholars." If you destroy their integrity no one will listen to them and follow them. Br. zainool
	LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
	IP Logged

honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 02 October 2012 at 2:50pm
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* *Originally posted by honeto* Addressing the Prophet (pbuh) as if he is listening is not right and that's the impression I get when I read: "O Prophet" . He seem to address the prophet, and I guess that's where I see wrong. It reminds me of our Shia brothers who call upon Ali(RA) as if he can hear them. Addressing a prayer to the Prophet is certainly the most glaring issue, but isn't there a similar problem with the whole idea of "serving" Muhammad? I thought the duty of all Muslims is to serve Allah and only Allah. Some might argue that to serve Muhammad is indirectly to serve Allah, but the same argument could be made that a prayer to Muhammad is indirectly a prayer to Allah. Allah does not want or need intermediaries or "partners", whether for prayer or allegiance. Certainly if the goal of all Muslims is to emulate Muhammad, then one could hardly imagine Muhammad praying to himself or pledging allegiance to himself. Ron, now that's mixing things up. There is a difference, if someone is praying to any prophet, or a saint or any person directly or indirectly, it is haram or forbidden in Islam. Obeying the prophets is of course not the same. Obeying the prophet is like obeying the law, the authority. The prophets were the authority, the law installed by God on earth. Kneeling down, bowing down, kissing, praying and asking for something in front of a man made statue or a God made creature is forbidden in Islam and Muslims do not do that. By following Newton's law of motion or gravity, no one is worshiping Newton, while according to your argument they are! Hasan Edited by honeto - 02 October 2012 at 2:52pm
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1401	Posted: 02 October 2012 at 7:02pm
	*Originally posted by honeto* Obeying the prophets is of course not the same. Obeying the prophet is like obeying the law, the authority. The prophets were the authority, the law installed by God on earth. Obeying the prophet is like obeying the law only if the prophet is (or is like) the law. But only Allah is the law, and there is no other like Him. To believe otherwise is shirk. P.S.: On the other hand, if you mean secular law, I agree completely. IMHO Muhammad was a human, secular leader. Like all such leaders, his authority did not extend beyond his lifetime. By following Newton's law of motion or gravity, no one is worshiping Newton, while according to your argument they are! According to my argument, Newton was merely the "messenger" for the law of gravity. The universe obeys the law of gravity, not the law of Newton. Edited by Ron Webb - 02 October 2012 at 7:10pm
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged

truthnowcome Senior Member Joined: 05 April 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 683	Posted: 03 October 2012 at 12:07am
	<> Br. Hasan, I thing we have already explained the Islamic position on what is shirk; what you are doing now is giving Ron WEBB a plat form for what he is here for. Let me explain what is going on if you didn’t recognize it yet. The Masons is preparing an all out attack on ISLAM. They already got all their Military in position for this event. If you notice they already launch of poster in the subway, and the cartoon and now the movie; the reason for that is before they launch an all out attack they first defame Islam so when we cry for the world to help no one will listen to us. Next, the turn Salafies against Shia to help them achieve their goal in wining with less booth on the ground like they did in Afghanistan and Iraq, what is important to know is both Sunny ans Shia is going down; they are preparing a mass murdering. Do you notice on the news the “SARS” VIRUS APPEARS IN SAUDI? COINCIDENT? NO! When the would have launch the war on Iran most likely they will release an airborne strain of the SARS in Saudi and blame it on “MUTATION OF THE VIRUS” WHICH WOULD BE AN ALL OUT WAR ON ISLAM; TRUST ME BROTHER, THESE PEOPLE ARE SATAN WORSHIPER. ROM WEBB IS A MOUTH PEACE FOR THEM (I MEAN NO OFFEND TO HIM). Br. Zainool
	LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1401	Posted: 03 October 2012 at 4:28am
	Thank you, Br. Zainool. That's the funniest post I've read in years! (And I mean no offense to you.)
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged

m.sumair Male Islam Groupie Joined: 28 November 2011 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 40	Posted: 03 October 2012 at 10:30am
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* "messenger" for the law of gravity. The universe obeys the law of gravity, not the law of Newton. Messenger is the right word, Ron. The Universe obeys the Laws of God. Everybody, everybody except humans are bound to obey the Law of God. Humans do have choice, either to obey or disobey Him, but obeying God is best for you, if you know it. Humans have weak memories, he constantly forgets of what he was told, he requires consistent written materials that can refresh his memories about obeying God. So, Messengers were sent on the earth to remind the Law to the people, but as it is with human, he is so weak, he requires interpretation and explainations to understand the Law. So the Messengers took up the task as they had best understanding of Laws as a human being, they interprete the Laws and it was decided that, this will be followed until next next Messenger arrives. So, we obey the Laws of Allah by understanding those Laws interprete by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). He was the Last (and Final) Messenger of Allah and we obey the Laws of Allah which are describe in detail by Prophet. Our Love and Passion for Muhammad (PBUH) is very imense. You see, you can't obey the Laws unless you utmostly respect and love those who bring the Law to you, who make it understand to you. Therefore We have utmost respect for Prophet (though we are weak in practices) and we get imensely hurt and emtionally distrubed when we hear/see such things in the name of Prophet. ....I'm quite sure you are not paralelling the Laws of God with the man-made Laws. And by-the-way what you have asked in your original post, it is not a Shrik..and it has been explained to you in a quite detail up here. Edited by m.sumair - 03 October 2012 at 11:06am
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 03 October 2012 at 2:37pm
	[/QUOTE] Br. Zainool, I know there are people out there that have a different purpose of life than us. We cannot be like them, and they cannot be like us unless God wills. Still God tells us to discuss with them in an excellent way with logic and reasoning and the truth that God Almighty has sent. We hope to meet our Lord on day, they deny that and they would like us to follow them, at least that is their intention. We believe it is our and their intentions and actions that will matter in the hereafter, they don't believe that. When they realize it, it will be too late to fix, they will be in great loss, unless they seek guidance now! Jazakallah brother, Hasan Edited by honeto - 03 October 2012 at 2:41pm
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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