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Friendship
 
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 30 November 2012 at 2:39pm


I do not like to associate with the Wild West- I want him dead or alive!


Friendship.
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 30 November 2012 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne



Originally posted by honeto

"Every citizen in a modern political system has the right to believe in God or not believe in God."
That is how it was in the Prophet's time. No one was forced to believe him. Those (many) who believed him did so out of their free will,and those (many) who did not believe in him to be the prophet did so out of their free will. He established a system, where each one has the right to choose after the warning from God has reached. He warned of the consequences in the hereafter as we do today to those who reject God.
So, it is not true that the current political system was the first one to give a person to decide for themselves what they wanted to believe. What people do out of their own understanding and actions is another story like with any other belief or system, but the Quran is clear on this matter.

2:256 (Y. Ali) Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Hasan
Unfortunately, the 'no compulsion in religion' principle often gets overruled in the Quran and Sunnah. Muslims here on Islamicity told me that female Muslims must wear the hijab. I thought Allah gave them a choice. But it goes far beyond this. Right after Muhammad died in 632 CE Muslim apostates were killed in the name of Islam. What followed was Islamic imperialism for more than 800 years. Many of those who believed in the Prophet did not so out of their free will. If Jews and Christians wanted to avoid paying the fine, they had no choice. Polytheists and other nonbelievers had no choice: either convert to Islam or be killed. In March 2006, the Afghan citizen Abdul Rahman was charged with apostasy and could have faced the death penalty for converting to Christianity. His case attracted much international attention with Western countries condemning Afghanistan for persecuting a convert. Charges against Abdul Rahman were dismissed on technical grounds (insanity) by the Afghan court after intervention by the president Hamid Karzai. He was released and left the country to find refuge in Italy. So much for making free choices in Islam.



Matt,
you seem biased toward history, Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years. They did not force people into their belief
otherwise Spain, Portugal and some other parts of Europe and all Latin America would have been Muslim. That is in contrast to what Catholics did. The Catholics when took over Spain made a black mark on history by giving two choice to Muslims and Jews living there for centuries, be Baptized or be killed. There are true stories that Muslims went underground to keep their faith from the terror with which the Popes ruled and imposed their belief upon people for five centuries.
In the Americas the Catholicism made way through the same tactics. Either eliminate a people if they resisted, or subjugate them through any means in order to be Baptized. So that's the reason you see natives either exterminated or Baptized with no choice of their own. It is written in history, if you care to read. I am not making this up. It continued to very recent times.

As far as you problem with hijab, it is simple, just like Allah gave us a choice to worship Him as our creator, or worship a man or a cow or fire or a statue of a living thing while guiding us that the only right worship is the worship of our maker our God. Everything else if we worship we will be wrong, and that He will punish us for our such wrong doing. (Worshiping anything other than Allah is a great wrong doing.) Similarly, if we see what Allah asks us to do in order to be a complete believer, yes we have a choice to fulfill it but by not obeying Allah do you think will make Him happy with us?
Can you be a basketball player or claim to be one, while not really playing it, not practicing it, not knowing its rule, but when someone asks you you say I am a basket ball player. Will the audience shower you with flowers or pellet you with tomatoes and eggs at a game you did not know or practiced? Will the team keep you?
The most important thing is that of course it is difficult in today's world as it was in yesterday's probably to fulfill all obligations, but intentionally and deliberately leaving any obligations will cost us dearly. For those who have intentions and they do try to fulfill them, but do fall short, for them God has good news,Forgiveness.
The only sin I know mentioned in the Quran and the Bible that God has stated that He will not forgie is blasphemy or shirk, of associating with God as God what is not God, or worshiping as God someone or something that is created by God. Do you follow that?
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 30 November 2012 at 6:46pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2012 at 3:42am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum. Matt Browne. Let us start going by specifics. It is the West who introduced banning smoking in public and not any Muslim ruler or scholar. Islam says anything that is harmful to the body is prohibited. It is the West who introduced the law allowing a minimum concentration of alcohol for drivers to have in their body. The time to open bars and parlors have been reduced. I do not know any Muslim country standing on that. Does it mean now that no 1 Muslim country could implement it simply it is a Western rule?

I agree with Schmikbob's view on this issue.
Originally posted by Friendship

In the Torah, no one should delay justice. So when Muhammad came he introduced delaying of war crimes such that when the punishment is passed it does not sound as a lesson to others.
Justice requires time indeed. For this reason Jews created the Talmud. They also created a culture of debate, something Islam abandoned when the Golden Age ended.
Originally posted by Friendship

Nakedness- Muhammad gave certain areas of the body to be covered. Who is walking naked despite the apparent nudity in some countries.
I don't know which Western country you are talking about, but I don't see any naked people. There are a few nude beaches in Europe that more than 99% of the population never visit. When someone walks around naked in a town, the police will pick him or her up. In some states in the US, mothers can't even breastfeed their babies in public, something that for most Europeans is hard to understand, because it's a natural part of humanity.
Originally posted by Friendship

Look at how women are not given the right of priesthood. All such trivialities are not part of the Shari'a of Muhammad. Look at how psodomy and prostitution is legalized. Islam prohibits them openly, but gives one the right to do whatever he likes secretly. Islam protects the right and interest of the majority. In the manner Moses refused to join those who rebelled against Aaron, Muhammad also disallows one joining those who rebel against him.

Many churches have female priests, even bishops. The one I belong to does and I hope that some day all Christian churches give females this right. The legal situation of prostitutes differs from country to country.



Edited by Matt Browne - 01 December 2012 at 3:44am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2012 at 3:59am
Originally posted by Friendship

You said: Unfortunately, the 'no compulsion in religion' principle often gets overruled in the Quran and Sunnah.
Response: Let us be wise please! How can Qur'an and the Sunna overrule an injunction in the Qur'an. Let us straighten the wheel please. In other words you are saying that Allah contradicted himself.

I didn't use the word contradiction. Overruling is different. There is also the principle of abrogation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_%28tafsir%29#Theory )
Originally posted by Friendship

The minimum protection given to uphold the dignity of women is for them to wear the veil. This is the meaning. If they feel that they will be dignified by not wearing the veil, they are free. To concur to that Muhammad allowed one to gaze at a woman twice. The fornication through the eyes, ears and sound is forgiven by Allah and not through physical contact.
Protection from who? No protection is needed when male adults behave like adults. Forcing women to wear veils because a small minority of immature men fail to behave properly is outrageous. Besides, even veils don't help as we can see in Egypt at the moment with men touching the breasts of women on the bus. In my country women would slap such men and possibly report such behavior to the police. So the problem are horny immature men. This doesn't give men the right to punish all women by forcing them to wear veils. In Egypt a new constitution is now in place. Egyptian women are now officially second-class citizens without equal rights. Egypt is on its way toward theocratic fascism.




Edited by Matt Browne - 01 December 2012 at 4:02am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2012 at 4:23am
Originally posted by honeto

Matt, you seem biased toward history, Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years. They did not force people into their belief otherwise Spain, Portugal and some other parts of Europe and all Latin America would have been Muslim.

I'm not biased. I was simply stating historic facts. In 632 CE the entire world had different religions, from Indonesia to India to Persia to Morocco. Islamic imperialism changed all that. People were forced to convert to Islam. Many were killed when they didn't comply. Some resisted like Hindus in India. The people of the book could keep their faith but held no power and had to pay a fine for not being Muslims. This is why you also have Copts in Egypt and Catholics in Spain and Portugal.
Originally posted by honeto

That is in contrast to what Catholics did. The Catholics when took over Spain made a black mark on history by giving two choice to Muslims and Jews living there for centuries, be Baptized or be killed. There are true stories that Muslims went underground to keep their faith from the terror with which the Popes ruled and imposed their belief upon people for five centuries.
In the Americas the Catholicism made way through the same tactics. Either eliminate a people if they resisted, or subjugate them through any means in order to be Baptized. So that's the reason you see natives either exterminated or Baptized with no choice of their own. It is written in history, if you care to read. I am not making this up. It continued to very recent times.

This is again a good example of today's Christians admitting the crimes of the past committed in the name of Christianity. What you are describing is all true. Yes, natives were either exterminated or baptized with no choice of their own. And all of the popes other crimes did in fact happen. That was terrible!

Yet most of today's Muslims find it very hard to admit the crimes committed in the history of Islamic imperialism. Islam is supposed to be perfect. Islam is the world's best religion. Everything that was done in the name of Islam was good. So history gets distorted to make Islam look good.

And the hijab was not Allah's idea, in my opinion. It was the idea of jealous men.

Originally posted by honeto


The only sin I know mentioned in the Quran and the Bible that God has stated that He will not forgive is blasphemy or shirk, of associating with God as God what is not God, or worshiping as God someone or something that is created by God. Do you follow that? Hasan

Yes, I follow that. But God is the only judge. Therefore we can disagree with blasphemy, but further human action is not allowed. In open secular societies belief in God is optional, not mandatory. Religions and religious views can be criticized openly.


Edited by Matt Browne - 01 December 2012 at 4:31am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 31 December 2012 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by abuayisha

"sigh"
Let me see if I can say it for you, abuayisha: Islam does not need to be reformed.
 
 
 
 
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