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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 24 September 2012 at 5:04pm

Originally posted by Friendship

There is no solution to our problem without establishing the caliph and caliphate. Its is not total theocracy, but rather the only way the world will enjoy stability and peace.

And by "peace", you mean submission to Muslim rule.  No thanks.

The solution to our problem is to stop thinking in terms of one side subjugating the other.  Peace will come to those who concentrate on controlling their own thoughts and behaviours, without trying to control others.  That is the greater jihad.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 5:45am
Originally posted by abuayisha

Matt, I think you're projecting your own cultural insecurities and ethnocentrism.  Islam during its dominance in Spain proved that it could work with Jews and Christians, and as a matter of fact both groups thrived during that period in history. Prior to the 1948 British mandate, Muslims and Jews lived peacefully together in Palestine and throughout the Middle East.  If simply asking you to set aside your apparent myopia just long enough to have empathy, elicits such a 'Henny-penny; the sky's a-going to fall - defensive response, that Muslim troubles and intransigences are so enormous, as if no historical record exists for Western civilization/Judeo-Christian, only proves your own personal intolerance and Islamophobia. Need I remind you of "Shock and Awe" in Iraq?  Does your hubris not allow for reflection?


I was describing the situation of Islam today. I am asking peaceful Muslims today to stand up and speak out. If good examples from the past help fuel this process, that's fine. Islam during its dominance in Spain indeed proved that it could work with Jews and Christians (Dhimmis), but it was only Muslims who could rule (like in Friendship's proposed political system) and the Dhimmis had to pay the Jizyah, a special tax, or rather a fine for not being Muslim.

A phobia is a persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous. Islam is an ideology and likewise, the rejection of an ideology cannot be classified as phobia. To call the opponents of an ideology phobic is a fallacy. All ideologies have their critics and opponents, but we do not hear Christians calling the critics of Christianity Christianophobes or Hindus calling theirs Hinduphobes. The term Islamophobia is both technically and logically incorrect and misleading. According to the definition of phobia given above, the neologism Islamophobia implies that Islam is not dangerous and the fear of it is irrational. Yet the danger from political Islam and Islamism exists and the fear is a consequence of rational thinking. This fear is shared by many liberals and conservatives who are familiar with Islamic teachings. Islamophobia was invented as a supposedly politically correct buzzword used to stigmatize criticism of Islam. As is the way with such terms, it is often used interchangeably with others such as racism and xenophobia in order to silence opposition. A few examples of real phobias are insectophobia (fear of all insects), isolophobia (fear of being alone), chiraptophobia (fear of being touched), and claustrophobia (fear of confined spaces).

I am not afraid of Islam as such. But I am very afraid of Islam used as a political ideology, especially when the secular principle is rejected. I know that between 1.3 and 1.35 billion Muslims are peaceful and in favor of democracy and freedom. But the remaining 150-200 million Muslims are still a force we have to take seriously. Most of them are non-militant, but they are still dangerous. They want to take us back to the dark ages. They are against human rights and democracy and laws made by the people for the people. They also don't tolerate followers of other religions. And they think that when a Muslim becomes an apostate he has committed a serious crime that needs to be punished. Most would not be able to actually kill an apostate, but if someone does, they would not object. It's these people who make the headlines every other day. And it's the 1.3 billion Muslims who silently disagree but do practically nothing about it. A silent majority who decides to remain silent is also scary. This is why so many people in the West are afraid. This would all change if Muslims managed to organize worldwide demonstrations. Imagine CNN and BBC and hundreds of other networks reporting that 1 million Muslims took to the streets to demonstrate against the sharia and violent Islam, demanding modern interpretations of the Quran and Hadith in agreement with human rights and enlightenment.

You mentioned Iraq. I was always against the war in Iraq. The German government was against it. Bush ridiculed Germans for this. Millions of Americans and Brits and Italian and Spaniards were also against this war. Now count the number of demonstrators in various countries against the war in Iraq. There were demonstrations again and again. In 2008 the Americans elected Obama who was in fact against this war.

A Pakistani minister offered $100,000 to anyone who kills the maker of an online video which insults Islam, as sporadic protests rumbled on across parts of the Muslim world. “I announce today that this blasphemer, this sinner who has spoken nonsense about the holy Prophet, anyone who murders him, I will reward him with $100,000,” Railways Minister Ghulam Ahmad Bilour told a news conference, to applause. There were at least 30 people in the room. All literate, not some illiterate mob. They all applauded. Hard to believe, but it's true. Abuayisha, you accused me of being mentally ill, because I'm afraid of such conduct. Are we really talking about a phobia here? Have you ever checked the dictionary about the meaning of the word phobia? Probably not, otherwise you might be more careful before making serious accusations.




Edited by Matt Browne - 09 October 2012 at 6:18am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 7:07am
Well, anyway....am I now to believe it's all about semantics? Matt you have made yourself perfectly clear.  No need to rehash.
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 11:47am
Assalamu alaika Matt.

We are all delighted by your sincere observations. However, governance by the followers of Muhammad Rasulullah is meant to establish justice for all and was never meant for them alone as exemplified by the life of Muhammad Rasulullah. I am not saying that in Germany or any Western country a caliph must rule. No. Never! Islam is the greatest and ever practiced tool of democracy in the world. This has its root in the example given in the Qur'an when Joshua advised Moses, Moses choose 12 people to spy the land, the incident between King David and his son Solomon and Solomon with the Queen of Sheba.
Take note that  Jizya is a protection money by those living under the protectorate of the caliph and not by those living outside. Once the Caliph is unable to protect them they are to be reimbursed. Equally a Muslim has no say in the territory of those believing in one G-d but not following the practice of Muhammad. He is allowed to pass through that territory and seek refuge ( transit visa) for only 3 days. If that territory is in alliance with a caliphate, then that territory must protect the right of that follower of Muhammad according to the agreement between them.
Matt,  it is possible for such Muslim to creep, but provided you and your folks will support him to establish the caliphate.  It calls for same education, same right. I think the West hates the caliphate because they do not understand the preventive strength of the Shari'a of Muhammad. The West in reality is doing a lot to uphold the Shari'a of Muhammad like in providing housing, job and protection of life etc.  The only thing the West is doing against the Shari'a is not covering the part of a woman not to be exposed. Matt! Your beautiful President Angela is following the Sunna of Muhammad. I have never seeing her partially naked. She does not even use make up. Also the US Secretary of state Hillary Clinton. Peace means only that practiced and advocated by Muhammad and not what is practiced in Muslim countries today!  The positive examples in previous prophets as told in the Qur'an were applied by Muhammad. For example giving due measures and weights and looking for your neighbors, speaking kind words to all, not following charity with injustice and equal justice. 
Look at the ridiculousness of Western ideology and double standards! Abu Hamza has been deported to USA to face charges against threats etc. Why was he allowed to stay in North London and not deported to his native land the very moment the British Government heard him preaching against the Sunna?  Peace is not specific to Muhammad for he came to spread it. If it were specific to him he would never migrated to Madina and wage war against injustice and oppression. He could have been reduced by the mighty onslaught  of the Persian and Roman empires. 
So, we shall seek for your assistance and support when the time comes by that Muslim who can bring peace to the world. He is not an Arab. he can be a German like you, a Briton, Italian, Swiss etc. Muhammad did not spread racism. He looked for practical ability skill and knowledge.

Friendship.

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 8:47pm
Greetings all,

Let me just ask....
Would you want or support a government system that you knew would make you a second class citizen, unless you agreed to give up your beliefs?
When black people were made second class citizens in America was it right?
When Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on the bus because she deserved it as much as anyone else, was she wrong?
Would it ever be right then, for any group of persons to do this to any other group of persons?

Is it right that the testimony of one man is accepted, but for a woman to be believed it takes the testimony of two?
Is it right that a woman is blamed for rape and that she, not the rapist, must be killed?

These are the things people object to.
Would you?
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 10:04pm
Assaalamu alaika Caringheart.

Please let us be specific and support our claim with solid and concrete examples. The teaching of Muhammad is different from what those who distorted the teachings of Jesus son of Maryam practiced. How can one nation behave as such? If they behaved then the reason behind it must be told plainly.
Listen to us! We know our art. We can catch a bird by just smelling in the air. We are insiders and know our problems very well. You can't solve it without us. We are honest merchants and we cannot afford scandal.
Please stop reading the Qur'an! Read the history of Muhammad Rasulullah and prove to us that he ever segregated between a Jew, a Christian and his immediate relations.


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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2012 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assaalamu alaika Caringheart.

Please let us be specific and support our claim with solid and concrete examples. The teaching of Muhammad is different from what those who distorted the teachings of Jesus son of Maryam practiced. How can one nation behave as such? If they behaved then the reason behind it must be told plainly.
Listen to us! We know our art. We can catch a bird by just smelling in the air. We are insiders and know our problems very well. You can't solve it without us. We are honest merchants and we cannot afford scandal.
Please stop reading the Qur'an! Read the history of Muhammad Rasulullah and prove to us that he ever segregated between a Jew, a Christian and his immediate relations.


Friendship


Greetings Friendship,

Where would I go to read an accurate, unbiased, history of Muhammad?
I would like to read what the Jews and Christians wrote about their time living under his rule.
I have read many conflicting reports about the reign of Islam, but most of this history refers to the time after Muhammad's death when his followers did as they pleased, and what suited them, and according to their interpretation of their time with Muhammad.  This is all I have to judge Muhammad with... the behavior of his followers... who presumably lived under his teaching and went out to do according to what they understood he taught.  These are the ones who had Muhammad as an example... so tell me what happened when Muhammad died if he set the example?

Sorry, I got argumentative.  I really just want to know where I can get truth.  Usually actions speak louder... more clearly... more truthfully, than words.  The actions of Muhammad's followers speak volumes more than anything written by those who of course wanted to present him in his best light. 
If I were to be able to read reports written by those categorized as second class because of their differing beliefs, that would help.

Salaam,
Caringheart
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Quote Friendship Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2012 at 2:34pm
Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

May Allah the G-d of Abraham bless you! It is people like you who wants to give an ear to the truth that we are looking for. Incidentally I met an Australian in London close to London  school of economics. He thought I was an Arab. He said, "I am confused and I wan to learn about Islam." A bookshop was close (I have forgotten its name). We went to the bookshop and he wanted to buy the Qur'an. I advised him to buy the translation of the Qur'an by Maududi and not Yusuf Ali, because the former is more detailed. I  offered him a present but he refused and insisted on buying the three available volumes with his money. We departed and I gave him my address. Likewise in all conferences and seminars I attended the Westerners show interest in Islam.
To understand Muhammad you must understand the Torah. Indeed the teaching of Muhammad has been distorted by his followers. But Allah has promised to make it everlasting and that no one on earth can extinguish it. You cannot understand in a day. It takes time. The gateway is for you to convince yourself that Allah never commanded one to cheat, be dishonest, hate his neighbor, commit adultery and fornication and all abominations that you personally hate.
The democracy is for one to read available literature and then to simmer down. Believe you me I love reading books telling lies about Muhammad. They increased my love to him.
What do you want to know about that orphan who as a speck conquered and subdued his tribe. You must listen then an expert with an unbiased mind with a summary.
You can read the following books I told you to read and then ask questions. Visit: http://108.167.148.69/OB_WD/384598/excerpt.htm        and http:www.yutube.com/watch?v=S1NaCq-Zqu0 .

Friendship.


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