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A-Tirawi
 
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Quote A-Tirawi Replybullet Topic: Trinity
    Posted: 26 March 2005 at 8:15am

I have often been confused with how the trinity of the christians and their views on Jesus son of Mary. 

1.  If Jesus is God (3oothobillah), as is God, God and the spirit God how does this work?  I count 1,2,3.  Could someone please explain this to me?

 

2.  If God (swt) for some reason wanted to have a son or to reincarnate himself into some other form, why would he pick a lowly human-an animal?  If you think about it, we are animals- we become tired, angry , hungry, horny, jealous, we must eat and dring therefore defacate and urinate.  Why would the Most High want to do that? 

 

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Quote Bosnian Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2005 at 9:34am


     The Nicene Creed and Truth about the Trinity

"God can in no way be described." -- Plato (Father of the pagan Trinity)

In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The Church of Rome . . . changed the pure Deism of the first Christians, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."

"Christendom has done away with Christianity without being quite aware of it" (Soren
Kierkegaard, cited in Time magazine, Dec. 16, 1946, p. 64).

The Pagan Trinity

"The three-in-one/one-in-three mystery of Father, Son and Holy Ghost made tritheism official. The subsequent almost-deification of the Virgin Mary made it quatrotheism . . . Finally, cart-loads of saints raised to quarter-deification turned Christianity into plain old-fashioned polytheism. By the time of the Crusades, it was the most polytheistic religion to ever have existed, with the possible exception of Hinduism. This untenable contradiction between the assertion of monotheism and the reality of polytheism was dealt with by accusing other religions of the Christian fault. The Church - Catholic and later Protestant - turned genocidal on the two most clearly monotheistic religions in view - Judaism and Islam - and persecuted them as heathen or pagan. The external history of Christianity consists largely of accusations that other religions rely on the worship of more than one god and therefore not the true God. These pagans must therefore be converted, conquered and/or killed for their own good in order that they benefit from the singularity of the Holy Trinity, plus appendages." -- The Doubter's Companion (John Ralston Saul)

Have you ever noticed that Bible Dictionaries and most scholarly religious encyclopedias and reference works don't use scriptures when discussing the Trinity? Why is that? Because they don't prove a trinity. For a trinity you need "THREE". But if the Trinity is not in the Bible, then where did we get it from? Welcome to the Nicene Creed

Also see Arius

The Issue: The nature of Christ: Was He the same substance as God? Or did God create him?

Different schools of thought were developed by the 4th century. In Antioch, literal interpretation of Scripture was emphasized, putting the writings in a historical context. Arius, a native Libyan, went to school in Antioch. He argued that the Father alone is true God, and Jesus was not God. Since Jesus was created by God, there would be a time when Jesus did not exist and Arius used Proverbs 8:22 and John 14:28 (the Father is greater than I) as his proof text. In Alexandria, Egypt, allegorical (mystical) interpretation was taught and Alexandrians could then spiritualize the text so they could explain away (make excuses, reject reason) any unwanted literal reference by claiming it was allegorical. They both relied on the Gnostic John 1:1 written by a Greek around 100 CE. Much of their philosophy was based mainly on Plato and Egyptian paganism. Alexander of Alexandria issued a statement that Christ was homoousios (same substance) to describe the relationship between Son and Father and thus Jesus was also the Father or God come to earth as a man. Arius thought that was dangerously close to heresy and plain stupid, so he said that the Father alone is true God more in line with reason and the content of the Bible. This controversy was tearing the church apart, so Constantine issued an invitation to settle this dispute at the Council of Nicaea.

For more on the Christian/Egyptian connection see Christianity in Egypt

The Players

Alexander of Alexandria: Bishop of Alexandria. Said Christ was the 'same substance' as the Father. Convened a council of bishops from Egypt and Libya to anathematize Arius and excommunicate him and his followers.

Athanasius: served as a deacon at the Council of Nicaea. He was strongly opposed to Arianism. He helped the Council decide against Arianism, and was later exiled. Also see Arianism

Constantine: Emperor of Rome. He called the Council of Nicaea to settle the dispute over Arianism. He was the Emperor who recognized Christianity as a legal religion and later tried to make it the state religion.

Eusubius, Bishop of Nicomedia and a supporter of Arius, would later baptize Constantine. Contrary to popular Christian myth, Constantine was a pagan and was baptized on his deathbed. He also never really made Christianity a state religion because Christians couldn't even agree on anything. The power grab of the pagan Trinitarians would be completed after his death.

From Brittanica.com,

"In his theological interpretation of the idea of God, Arius was interested in maintaining a formal understanding of the oneness of God. In defense of the oneness of God, he was obliged to dispute the sameness of essence of the Son and the Holy Spirit with God the Father, as stressed by the theologians of the Neoplatonic influenced Alexandrian school. From the outset, the controversy between both parties took place upon the common basis of the Napoleonic concept of substance, which was foreign to the New Testament itself. It is no wonder that the continuation of the dispute on the basis of the metaphysics of substance likewise led to concepts that have no foundation in the New Testament--such as the question of the sameness of essence (homoousia) or similarity of essence (homoiousia) of the divine persons."

It was 325 A.D. at Nicaea that the doctrine of the Trinity was rammed through by Athanasius (using Mafia tactics) in a Council that was overseen by the Emperor Constantine who, ironically enough, thought of himself as God-incarnate. (Constantine was a Sun Worshiper and only made an official conversion to "Christianity" on his deathbed). Roman coins of the period still portrayed the image of the sun God despite the alleged sudden adoption/conversion of Christianity. Many of those present at the Council Of Nicaea were opposed the doctrine of the Trinity, siding with Arius. Even after the Nicene Creed, the Trinity was still hotly debated for decades and centuries after.

A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE CHURCH AFTER NICAEA

325 AD - Constantine convenes the Council of Nicaea in order to develop a statement of faith that can unify the church. The Nicene Creed is written, declaring that "the Father and the Son are of the same substance" (homoousios). Emperor Constantine who was also the high priest of the pagan religion of the Unconquered Sun presided over this council.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:
"Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, `of one substance with the Father'."

The American Academic Encyclopedia states:
"Although this was not Constantine's first attempt to reconcile factions in Christianity, it was the first time he had used the imperial office to IMPOSE a settlement."

At the end of this council, Constantine sided with Athanasius over Arius and exiled Arius to Illyria.

328 AD - Athanasius becomes bishop of Alexandria.

328 AD - Constantine recalls Arius from Elyria.

335 AD - Constantine now sides with Arius and exiles Athanasius to Trier.

337 AD - A new emperor, Contentious, orders the return of Athanasius to Alexandria.

339 AD - Athanasius flees Alexandria in anticipation of being expelled.

341 AD - Two councils are held in Antioch this year. During this council, the First, Second, and Third Arian Confessions are written, thereby beginning the attempt to produce a formal doctrine of faith to oppose the Nicene Creed.

343 AD - At the Council of Sardica, Eastern Bishops demand the removal of Athanasius.

346 AD - Athanasius is restored to Alexandria.

351 AD - A second anti - Nicene council is held in Sirmium.

353 AD - A council is held at Aries during autumn that is directed against Athanasius.

355 AD - A council is held in Milan. Athanasius is again condemned.

356 AD - Athanasius is deposed on February 8th, beginning his third exile.

357 AD - Third Council of Sirmium is convened. Both homoousios and homoiousios are avoided as unbiblical, and it is agreed that the Father is greater than His subordinate Son.

359 AD - The Synod of Seleucia is held which affirms that Christ is "like the Father," It does not however, specify how the Son is like the Father.

361 AD - A council is held in Antioch to affirm Arius' positions.

380 AD - Emperor Theodosius the Great declares Christianity the official state religion of the empire.

381 AD - The First Council of Constantinople is held to review the controversy since Nicaea. Emperor Theodosius the Great establishes the creed of Nicaea as the standard for his realm. The Nicene Creed is re-evaluated and accepted with the addition of clauses on the Holy Spirit and other matters.

If Nicaea just formalized the prevalent teaching of the church, then why all the conflicts? If it were the established teaching of the church, then you would expect people to either accept it, or not be Christians. It was not the established teaching, and when some faction of the church tried to make it official, the result was major conflict.

It was a theological power grab by a faction of the church. A major complication throughout all this was that the emperors were involved and directed the outcome. At Nicaea it was Constantine that decided the outcome. Then we have the flip-flopping of opinion with the result that Athanasius is exiled and recalled depending on who is in power. In 357 AD the declaration that homoousios and homoiousios are unbiblical, and that the Father is greater than His subordinate Son. This is 180 degrees from Nicaea.

In 380 AD Emperor Thedosius declares Christianity the state religion. One can come to the conclusion that whichever way Theodosius favors, that is the way in which it is going to end. This is exactly what happened next.

In 381 AD the struggle was finally ended by the current emperor, Theodosius the Great, who favored the Nicene position. Just like at Nicaea, the EMPEROR again decided it. The emperors were dictating the theology of the church.

The big difference now was that there was not going to be any more changing sides. It was now the state religion. You cannot make Christianity the state religion and then change its beliefs every few years. It would undermine its credibility as the true faith. The Trinity was now the orthodox position, and the state was willing to back it up with force.

For the most part, the Trinitarian church has silenced critical thought and dealt treacherously with anyone of open mind and free thought. In the 1670's, Isaac Newton quietly studied the Trinity and came to the conclusion that Athanasius in order to foisted the doctrine on the Church swell the numbers and fill the coffers. He concluded Arius was right and he claimed that the Bible had prophesied the Rise of Trinitarianism("this strange religion of the west", the cult of 3 equal gods) as the abomination of desolation. -- The Rise of Science and Decline of Orthodox Christianity. A study of Kepler, Descartes and Newton. After Newton, others such as Matthew Tindal, John Toland, Gottfried Arnold, Goerg Walch, Giovanni

But, Henry Noris and Hermann Samuel Reimburse argued Aryanism (Unitarianism) and opened up a new era of criticism. It is only logical for people to argue after this, "What else has the Church lied to us about?" This unfortunately led to Higher Criticism of the bible in the 19th century which in turn, paved the way for evolutionism and Nietzsche's death of God. Is it not logical that to replace a polytheistic trinity, man would have to become gods themselves.

Albrecht Ritschl (1822-89) saw the Trinity doctrine as flagrantly Hellenistic. It had corrupted the Christian message by introducing an alien "layer of metaphysical concepts, derived from the natural philosophy of the Greeks," and it had nothing to do with early Christianity.

"The Chalcedonian formula [the council's decision declaring Jesus both God and man] makes genuine humanity impossible. The councilor definition says that Jesus is true man. But if there are two natures in him, it is clear which will dominate. And Jesus becomes immediately very different from us. He is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. He knows the past, present and future...He knows exactly what everyone is thinking and going to do. This is far from ordinary human experience. Jesus is tempted but cannot sin because he is God. What kind of temptation is this? It has little in common with the kinds of struggles we are familiar with." To Know and Follow Jesus, Roman Catholic writer Thomas Hart (Paulist Press, 1984), 46.

Historian Will Durant: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity." And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."

"The doctrine of the Trinity has in the West come into increasing question...there has for long been a tendency to treat the doctrine as a problem rather than as encapsulating the heart of the Christian Gospel."
The Promise of the Trinity, Gunton, p.31

"Despite their orthodox confession of the Trinity, Christians are, in their practical life, almost mere monotheists. We must be willing to admit that, should the doctrine of the Trinity have to be dropped as false, the major part of religious literature could well remain virtually unchanged." Karl Rainier, The Trinity, J. Donceel, trans, p.10

"But how can such weak creatures ever take in so strange, so difficult and so abstruse a doctrine as this [the Trinity], in the explication and defence whereof multitudes of men, even men of learning and piety, have lost themselves in infinite subtleties of dispute and endless mazes of darkness? And can this strange and perplexing notion of three real persons going up to make one true God be so necessary and important a part of that Christian doctrine, which, in the Old Testament and the New, is represented as so
plain and so easy, even to the meanest understandings."
William G. Eliot, Discourses on the Doctrines of Christianity (American Unitarian Association, Boston,1877), pp. 97, 100

The Eastern Theologian John of Damascus (c. 675-749) once used a very curious argument in favor of icons...John replied to the criticism are unscriptural by admitting the fact, and adding that you will not find in scripture the Trinity, of homousian or the two natures of Christ either. But we know those doctrines are true. And so, having acknowledged that icons, the Trinity and the incarnation are innovations, John goes on to urge his reader to hold fast to them as venerable traditions delivered to us by the Fathers...He was not the only one to use this argument: Theodore the Studite (759-826) adopted it too. It brings out an odd feature to Christianity, its mutability and speed with which innovations come to be vested with religious solemnity to such an extent that anyone who questions them find himself regarded as the dangerous innovator and heretic." The Christ of Christendom by Don Cupitt, as used in The Myth of God Incarnate, p. 133

"In brief, the ante-Nicene Fathers taught the real distinction and divinity of the three persons . . . but in their attempts at a philosophical interpretation of the Dogma, the ante-Nicene Fathers used certain expressions which would favor sudordinationism. In the late 17th century, the Socinians cited these expressions that the ante-Nicene tradition agreed rather with Arius than with Athanasius . . . Catholic theologians commonly defend the orthodoxy of these early Fathers, while admitting that certain of their expressions were inaccurate and eventually dangerous." -- Colliers Encyclopedia

"No historical fact is better established, than that the doctrine of one God, pure and uncompounded, was that of the early ages of Christianity . . . Nor was the unity of the Supreme Being ousted from the Christian creed by the force of reason, but by the sword of civil government, wielded at the will of the Athanasius. The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands of martyrs . . . The Athanasian paradox that one is three, and three but one, is so incomprehensible to the human mind, that no candid man can say he has any idea of it, and how can he believe what presents no idea? He who thinks he does, only deceives himself. He proves, also, that man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such person, gullibility which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck." -- Thomas Jefferson: Letter to James Smith, Dec. 8, 1822

For more Letters from T. Jefferson Click here

"The doctrine is not taught explicitly in the New Testament, where the word God almost invariably refers to the Father" -- MS Encarta 99

"The word itself does not occur in the Bible...The explicit formula was thus formulated in the post-biblical period, although the early stages of its development can be seen in the NT. Attempts to trace the origin still earlier (to the Old Testament literature) cannot be supported by historical-critical scholarship, and these attempts must be understood as retrospective interpretations of this earlier corpus of Scripture in the light of later theological developments." The Harper Collins Study Bible Dictionary

"We are judged to be heretics because we can no longer believe in essence, person, nature, incarnation, as they want us to believe. If these things are necessary for salvation, it is certain that no poor peasant Christian be saved, because he could never understand them in all his life." -- Francis David (1510-79)

Catholic theologian Hans Küng in Christianity and the World Religions, "Even well-informed Muslims simply cannot follow, as the Jews thus far have likewise failed to grasp, the idea of the Trinity . . . The distinctions made by the doctrine of the Trinity between one God and three hypostases do not satisfy Muslims, who are confused, rather than enlightened, by theological terms derived from Syriac, Greek, and Latin. Muslims find it all a word game . . . Why should anyone want to add anything to the notion of God's oneness and uniqueness that can only dilute or nullify that oneness and uniqueness?"

"The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." -- The Illustrated Bible Dictionary

The Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180 . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian." However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity. The Catholic work Trinitas - A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity, for example, notes that others to describe the Trinity later used some of Tertullian’s words. But then it states: "But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology."

The New Encyclopedia Britannica: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament."

Yale University Professor E. Washburn Hopkins: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about It." -- Origin and Evolution of Religion.

Tom Harpur states, "As early as the 8th century, the Theologian St. John of Damascus frankly admitted what every modern critical scholar of the NT now realizes: that neither the Doctrine of the Trinity nor that of the 2 natures of Jesus Christ is explicitly set out in scripture. In fact, if you take the record as it is and avoid reading back into it the dogmatic definitions of a later age, you cannot find what is traditionally regarded as orthodox Christianity in the Bible at all." -- For Christ's Sake.

Historian Arthur Weigall: "Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord." -- The Paganism in Our Christianity

The New Encyclopedia Britannica: "Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' -- Deut. 6:4
. . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since." -- Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126. (1976)

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." - (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

The Encyclopedia Americana: "Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicaea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching." -- (1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

The Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches . . . This Greek philosopher's [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] Conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions." -- (Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

"The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of "person" and "nature: which are Gk. philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The Trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as "essence" and "substance" were erroneously applied to God by some theologians." Dictionary of the Bible by John L. McKenzie, S.J. p. 899

Regarding the Nicene Council and those that followed, Hans Kung in Christianity says, "The councilor decisions plunged Christianity into undreamed-of theological confusions with constant entanglements in church politics. They produced splits and sparked off a persecution of heretics unique in the history of religion. This is what Christianity became as it changed its nature from a persecuted minority to a majority persecuting others."

"Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything." -- Robert A. Heinlein

“Just as the ocean cannot be contained in the tea cup, so the infinite god cannot be contained in a finite man.” –Steven Johnson – convert

The Trinitarian might be compperas to one of those cells in the honey comes, where a drone is bread to be a plague. Arnold Toynbee - historian

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Quote A-Tirawi Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2005 at 10:00am

Thank you for your response.  It was very very thorough on explaining how the trinity arose, which i already knew.  What i was looking for exactly was a christian's personal view point on how they can actually say this in light of the beautiful history that you have compiled for us.

 

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Quote yesha` Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2005 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by A-Tirawi



I have often been confused with how the trinity of the christians and their views on Jesus son of Mary.

1.  If Jesus is God (3oothobillah), as is God, God and the spirit God how does this work?  I count 1,2,3.  Could someone please explain this to me?

2.  If God (swt) for some reason wanted to have a son or to reincarnate himself into some other form, why would he pick a lowly human-an animal?  If you think about it, we are animals- we become tired, angry , hungry, horny, jealous, we must eat and dring therefore defacate and urinate.  Why would the Most High want to do that?



1. Trinity doctrine, as I see it, is best understood by looking at mankind, which the bible says was created in the image of God.  This generally means that man is a spiritual being, but it is also useful for understanding how three is one.

A person is made up of 1) body, 2) soul, 3) spirit.
The body is flesh, and used interchangable with our soul.
Our soul is our spiritual person.
The spirit, as I understand it, is something that comes from God, and though it, God influances us to know morals.  It's what makes us in his image.  The spirit and soul are used interchangeable, but spirit and body is not.
Thus our soul is both worldly and spiritual.  We are spiritual beings with a worldly body.

If one part of our triune makeup is missing we are not whole.  We need all three to be one.

Trinity, places this kind of idea on God.  It does this because scripture identifies three persons of God as God.
Their relationship may be analagous to our own makeup.
For the example, our body is that through which we interact with physical matter.
We communicated through our body.
This is analagous to the Word of God, aka, the Son of God.
It is through the Word that God creates, like it is through our bodies that we do things.
The Word is the wisdom and power of God.  It is through the Word that one communicates with God, which is why you must go through Jesus, the incarnate Word, to know the Father.

The Holy Spirit, probably is like the rightouness, and all other qualities of God's character.  
The Holy Spirit, which is given to believers, is what makes a Christian a Christian.
It is a perfect influance from God allowing us, if we are submitted to act fully according to his will.
Note this is different then the spirit which all people posess.

The Father, is like the person of God, like the soul is the person of us.
So why then are the Word and the Spirit also called persons?
It is like why our bodies are called our person.  
When a soul speaks to a soul, it is through the body, thus we recognize and communicate to someones body.
That body, from our point of view, is the person.
Likewise, the Father, doesn't not speak to anyone directly, but through the Word, or through the Spirit.
Just as when the body speaks to someone we don't make a distiction that that one person of three is speaking, it is the same with the trinity.  It's just a more advanced way of understanding the One God.  But it still ultimately refers to the one God.

Also, to clarify, Jesus has two natures.  He is the incarnate Word of God, which has always been and THROUGH which all things are created.  He is also fully human.  The same as anyone, who must submit to God, and is suseptable to temptation.  How can he have both natures.  Because man has two natures, as has been said, we have a spiritual nature, and a physical nature.  Jesus is no different, except his spiritual nature is in somewhy the Word of God.  That is God through the Word, through the person of Christ, through his body communicates to the world.  

Christ is his own person, who was created, died, and was raised to life.  His Spiritual nature however was never created, but through it Christ, the man, was created.  Christ the man is fully submitted to the Father such that when Christ speaks, it is the Father speaking.  Thus everything that Christ does, it is God doing it.  Thus when you see Christ, you are in a way looking at God, because everthing that Christ does, is really God doing it.  This does not mean that the body of Christ is God, it only means that you can perceive the invibible God through Christ in the same why you perceive the invible soul (the person) through their body.

2. God did not indwell in Christ to say he has a son.  Son is just a title with several meanings.  
First of all, when  Israel rebelled against God by saying that they wanted a king like other nations, when God was their king, to a person it might not make sence that God would not allow it.  But God is not a person, and there is nothing we can do to frustrate His will.  God reclaims his kingship by becomming the King, through the person of Christ.  Second, it appears to be some divine decree that those who sin shall die.  Because we have all sinned, the good and rightous thing for God to do is to destroy all of us in hell fire.  However, again, God is not frustrated by the weakness of people or even the schemes of Satan.  A price must be paid, our death, and we cannot pay this price.  No one else has been tested, and found sinless, so no one else is capable of paying the price of this sin.  Only God can do it, by forgiving us our sins. God demonstates that he takes the burden of our forgiveness upon himself, like a man forgiving a debt, takes the loss upon himself, and physically demonstates this in the person of Christ by Christ taking the sins of the world upon himself and dieing on the cross because of them.  This act demonstates God love for us, that 'while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.'  With our sins forgiven we are able to live in the presence of God, demonstrated by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and ultimatly fulfilled by living with Christ.  Christ also functions as a 'High Priest', a mediator between God and man, and for this reason, he must be like us in order to sympathise with our weaknesses, as descripted in Hebrews.  Also, the Most High is humble.  He is not ashamed to serve, all good things comes from him, and it is through weakness that power is best demonstrated.  Also God wants us to be like him, morally, as much as we are able.  Thus Christ is a perfect example of how we can be.  God did this for us, that we can know Him personally, and physically as we can know a person. The reasons go on and on. 


Edited by yesha`
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Quote Rehmat Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2005 at 6:31pm

The closest present day religion, which has a Trinity, as its core belief is Hinduism. In the Hindu philosophy Lord Brahma is the Supreme God of Creation, Lord Vishnu is the Sustainer God and Lord Shiva is a God of Destruction. Hindus, who worship multiple deities, justify their dogma as monotheistic belief on the ground that each deity stresses one or more aspects of The One Supreme God, called Brahma. There are hundreds of gods and goddesses in various Hindu temples throughout India. But each has its own specific power and place in worship, depending upon a particular aspect or aspects of the Supreme God that he or she stresses or represents. This is very similar to the Trinity in Christianity; however, most Christians who view the Hindu religion will condemn it as Polytheistic. The question for Christians is why then do they not view their own religion as Polytheistic if they think the Hindu Religion is polytheistic?

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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2005 at 6:48pm

Rehmat good question... The trinity as Bosnian puts it derives its existence from the Nicene Creed which was a counsel which discussed the nature of Christ as who he was. Many Christian thinkers since that counsel have used various arguments to justify the logic behind the trinity and all of the them (yes even the brillant Thomas Aquinas) have failed in symbolically trying to separate the divinty of Christ from an and justify Christ distinct nature from man. Unfortunately for our Christian neighbor Yesha you do no justice in using the logic of the trinity.

To answer why Christians believe in the trinity is a mystery but then again, not all Christians follow the trinity such as Unitarians for example. Yesha you have yet agin make logic of the Paganistic trinity by using these examples to show the logic of the trnity. As a Muslim Philosopher I cannot get over the fact that God in Christianity is of one person, one essence and yet has two other essence besides the one. That defies the rule of monotheism. God is of one essence and of one intellect and is unified as one person. There is no hierarchy in monotheism. Too bad the Jews do not believe in your trinity if it pertains to truth.

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Quote yesha` Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2005 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by Rehmat

The closest present day religion, which has a Trinity, as its core belief is Hinduism. In the Hindu philosophy Lord Brahma is the Supreme God of Creation, Lord Vishnu is the Sustainer God and Lord Shiva is a God of Destruction. Hindus, who worship multiple deities, justify their dogma as monotheistic belief on the ground that each deity stresses one or more aspects of The One Supreme God, called Brahma. There are hundreds of gods and goddesses in various Hindu temples throughout India. But each has its own specific power and place in worship, depending upon a particular aspect or aspects of the Supreme God that he or she stresses or represents. This is very similar to the Trinity in Christianity; however, most Christians who view the Hindu religion will condemn it as Polytheistic. The question for Christians is why then do they not view their own religion as Polytheistic if they think the Hindu Religion is polytheistic?



I haven't studied hinduism.  However, I thought that the monotheistic viewpoint that you are describing is not held by all, but only by a part.  For the part that believes that they are worshiping an aspect of a single God, then that must be by definition a monotheistic religion, being possibly little different then meditating upon a single concept of God at a time.  However, even if monotheistic, which doesn't mean anything ("Even the demons believe there is one God and shutter") due to the idols involved, it would be considered idolatry, and along with false ideas about God and man, it simply would not be embraced as acceptable.

Eph 4:4-6
4    There is one body and one Spirit-- just as you were called to one hope when you were called--
5    one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6    one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
(NIV)


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Quote yesha` Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2005 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by Israfil

Rehmat good question... The trinity as Bosnian puts it derives its existence from the Nicene Creed which was a counsel which discussed the nature of Christ as who he was. Many Christian thinkers since that counsel have used various arguments to justify the logic behind the trinity and all of the them (yes even the brillant Thomas Aquinas) have failed in symbolically trying to separate the divinty of Christ from an and justify Christ distinct nature from man. Unfortunately for our Christian neighbor Yesha you do no justice in using the logic of the trinity.

To answer why Christians believe in the trinity is a mystery but then again, not all Christians follow the trinity such as Unitarians for example. Yesha you have yet agin make logic of the Paganistic trinity by using these examples to show the logic of the trnity. As a Muslim Philosopher I cannot get over the fact that God in Christianity is of one person, one essence and yet has two other essence besides the one. That defies the rule of monotheism. God is of one essence and of one intellect and is unified as one person. There is no hierarchy in monotheism. Too bad the Jews do not believe in your trinity if it pertains to truth.



Nicene Creed, is not the origin of the concept.  I came to it from studying the bible, not this creed.  It may be the origin of the 'word' trinity, but not the concept.

When you say they 'failed' do you mean they failed to convince you, or that they failed to convince themselves?

Have you considered that it is your 'own' definitions and preconceptions that cause you to not understand.

For example 'you' define monotheism as God is of one essence and of one intellect and is unified as one person.  If a person has several known intellects within their person, why should you 'presume' that God has only one?  Isn't it reasonable to you that God who is infinitly greater then us should also be infinitly more complex.  But your view of God is so simple in this regard, that even a man is too complex to fit it. 


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