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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: THE MESSAGE OF THE MESSENGERS Post Reply Post New Topic
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 06 September 2012 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by iec786

What a clean clear sign from God, that he wants a clean and chaste society not a bunch of Sodom & Gomorrahs running around polluting the earth with filth.Today we have people coming and telling us oh what a God, he kills people.When you purchase a television,you are given a book,which is called an instruction manual.When the creator of that tv tells you, do not put your tv in water it will get damaged.You listen.when the book tells you do not expose this tv to the heat of the sun it will get damaged you listen.when the book tells you do not emerse the tv in water it will get rusty and damaged you listen.


When God tells you in his book do not worship other then him do not commit adultery,do not do this or that it is bad for you. Our response he is a murdering god he does not know what he is saying.He only talks of killing people,this is us the ungrateful animal who with a puny little brain wants to stand judgement on his creator.What a sad day for a human being,when he cannot listen to the one who created him.    


Again, there is a vast difference between "don't do this or you will damage your television", versus "don't do this or I will send my technicians to invade your house and destroy your television -- and then destroy you."  (By the way, Hasan: I find it hard to believe that you would fail to notice just how bad this analogy is. You're smarter than that.)



Ron,
no it is not. Of course anything written by a human will have some deficiency in it, including my own writings. However, I understood the main message behind it and greatly agree with that.
We listen to our bosses at work: If we are told no jeans, we understand its meanings. If we are told to take a break every four hour, we are good at that. Similarly, when we see speed limit is 40, we obey it otherwise we get a ticket. We are told if we are late on a CC payment we will be charged a penalty of $30.00 we follow that. We don't seem to have issue with anyone of that because we see the consequences delivered to us right away.

God, on the other hand has told and given us chance to correct ourselves, before He brings out our accountability. There it shows God's Mercy for us. But since we don't see the consequences upfront, somehow we feel easy, even many of us feel that those consequences are not real.
It is up to us to wait to see it to believe it, or believe it unseen! Also, we get by breaking some laws, like speeding because there was no cop when I was speeding, but with God, each and everyone will be accounted for, none will escape justice.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 06 September 2012 at 12:33pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 06 September 2012 at 7:57pm

Let's go back to the original quote that caught my attention:

Originally posted by truthnowcome

The God of the Israelites declared death penalty in Deuteronomy 13:6-9 and in Chronicles 15:13, if anyone even your own brother or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend encourage you to secretly worship other deity than the God of Israel he or she must put to death.

So a more accurate statement of iec786's analogy would be: Suppose you purchase a television, and then you find that according to the instruction manual, if anyone tries to sell you a different brand of TV you are obligated to kill him or her.  And even that isn't quite accurate, because "purchase" implies that we had some brand choice in the first place.  Nope, God has a monopoly, which He enforces by threats of violence and murder.  I don't understand how anyone can find that worthy of worship.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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iec786
 
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 10 September 2012 at 9:28am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Let's go back to the original quote that caught my attention:


Originally posted by truthnowcome

The God of the Israelites declared death penalty in Deuteronomy 13:6-9 and in Chronicles 15:13, if anyone even your own brother or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend encourage you to secretly worship other deity than the God of Israel he or she must put to death.


So a more accurate statement of iec786's analogy would be: Suppose you purchase a television, and then you find that according to the instruction manual, if anyone tries to sell you a different brand of TV you are obligated to kill him or her.  And even that isn't quite accurate, because "purchase" implies that we had some brand choice in the first place.  Nope, God has a monopoly, which He enforces by threats of violence and murder.  I don't understand how anyone can find that worthy of worship.





I an sorry Ron Webb,I think you misunderstood what i told you.Please do kill the television.

Let me put it in simple English.

God wanted to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good or evil."
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 12 September 2012 at 3:36pm
Ron,
I understand what you are saying, I have been there once. Does One God belief means God has a monopoly? Simply, yes.
But God is not your high school bully nor a power hungry politician. God is not a politically appointed Judge, nor he is influenced by size of your donations.
God is All powerful, nothing is beyond His reach, Just and all Knowing thus the only one who can serve absolute Justice.

As a human we are given what it takes to make sound judgement. We are given responsibilities, if we choose to fulfill those responsibilities we will receive its rewards. If we choose to refuse to fulfill those responsibilities, we will only be held responsible for that.
There is a reward and punishment in every act. Its very basic, very simple.

Hasan


Edited by honeto - 12 September 2012 at 3:38pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 12 September 2012 at 4:54pm

Originally posted by iec768

I an sorry Ron Webb,I think you misunderstood what i told you.Please do kill the television.

No, I'm not misunderstanding anything.  In the analogy, the television corresponds to religion.    It is the person selling the wrong television/religion that we are commanded to kill.  Nice try, though.

God wanted to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good or evil.

He "wanted to see"?  If God is omniscient, He already knows who will choose what.  He knows (because He made me as I am) that the flimsy evidence offered by "messengers" thousands of years ago is simply not good enough to make me believe in their far-fetched claims.  I am not free to choose what I believe, any more than you are free to disbelieve.


Originally posted by honeto

But God is not your high school bully nor a power hungry politician. God is not a politically appointed Judge, nor he is influenced by size of your donations.
God is All powerful, nothing is beyond His reach, Just and all Knowing thus the only one who can serve absolute Justice.

If you consider it "justice" to murder someone simply for expressing a sincere misunderstanding of God or religion, then we have nothing more to say to one another.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 12 September 2012 at 7:58pm
Ron,
please help me understand what you mean with "If you consider it "justice" to murder someone simply for expressing a sincere misunderstanding of God or religion, then we have nothing more to say to one another."
so I can respond properly.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 12 September 2012 at 7:59pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2012 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by honeto

Ron,
please help me understand what you mean with "If you consider it "justice" to murder someone simply for expressing a sincere misunderstanding of God or religion, then we have nothing more to say to one another."
so I can respond properly.
Hasan

First, I should probably apologize for a somewhat grumpy response -- and maybe one day I will; but right now I am indeed feeling a bit grumpy about Muslim apologists, what with Libya and Yemen and Pakistan and all.  IMHO you really are defending the indefensible.

We were talking about Deuteronomy 13:6-9 and 2 Chronicles 15:13, which make it very clear that we are commanded by God to kill anyone who preaches a different religion.  Truthnowcome's argument is that this Judeo-Christian edict is the same message that was proclaimed by Mohammad.

The difference, however, is that with rare exceptions most modern Christians treat such passages as purely historical.  Muslims, on the other hand, continue to defend such extremism, apparently because they have no other choice.  There is no precedent in Islam to say that the teachings and the attitudes prevalent in Muhammad's time and place are no longer applicable.  Thus, Islam is frozen in the dark ages, and seems doomed to remain so.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but your response to the two Biblical passages was to describe them as "absolute Justice".  If that is the case, then I give up.  There is no response I can offer against that degree of intolerance.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 14 September 2012 at 12:31am
<>

Mr. Ron Webb, “Islam has frozen in the dark age” is your wishful thinking; too bad for you. All the man made law will fail. This is what will happen, as was prophecy in Isaiah 29. The God of Abraham (S) will send a book and it will and create a congregation that will unite all nations and be marvelous in our eyes and the “wisdom of the wise man will perish” (all the man made laws will perish).

12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, read this I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. (Isaiah.29: 12 KJV)

  History recorded that Muhammad (s) used to go up mountain cave, called Ghar-Hera, in Arabia (Mt. Paran) to meditate. While he was there an angel, later identified as Gabriel, commanded him saying: “read” and he respond by saying: “I am not learned,” the angel repeat the act three times, then Muhammad (S) began to repeat the command of the angel which became the first five verse of surah 96, Al-Alaq, of the Qur’an. 

Read: In the name of thy Lord who created. Created man from a clot. Read: and thy Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who taught by the pen, Taught man which he knew not. (Q.96:1-5)

 Allah conform it in the Quran:

Those who fallow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mention in their own (Scriptures), In the Taurat {Torah} and the Injeel (Gospel). (Q.7:157).

And thou (O Muhammad) was not (able) to recite a book before this (book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case indeed, would the talkers of vanity have doubted. (Q.29:48)

Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him. He was taught by one mighty in power. (Q.53:3-5)

Isaiah tell us why:

“Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have remove their heart far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precept of men. (Isaiah.29:13).

“Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.” (Isaiah29:14)

   Then He passes judgment on those who follow the man made law. He said:

“Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their work are in darkness, and they say, who Seeth us? And who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things up-side down shall be esteemed as the putter’s clay…” (V.15-16)

Man-made law does not and will not sanction by God. Those who created them and those who follow them are in total darkness.

He God Almighty informs us in the day when that seal book would have come the deaf will understand and the blind shall see, in other words who are blind they will recognize the truth.

And in that day shall the deaf hear the word of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness. The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord…(Isaiah.29:18-19)


<>

Jesus (s) described it as the kingdom of God:

Jesus said unto them (Jews), Did ye never read in the scriptures, the stone which the builders reject the same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord’s doings, and it is marvelous in our eyes. (Matt.21:42)

And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall broken: but whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. (Matt.21:44)

Jesus (S) said:

“Therefore say I unto you The kingdom of God shall taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” (Matt.21: 43)

  That nation is no other than Ishmaelite, Abraham’s (S) seeds. The God of Abraham’s promise to bless Abraham’s son Ishmael and make him a Great nation:

“And as for Ishmael…Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and multiply him exceedingly…and I will make a GREAT NATION.” (Genesis 17:20).

Br. zainool



Edited by truthnowcome - 14 September 2012 at 12:42am
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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