Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: THE MESSAGE OF THE MESSENGERS Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 8 Next >>
Author Message
truthnowcome
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 April 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 788
Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 26 October 2012 at 7:26pm
<>

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by truthnowcome

...as my father hath sent me, even so I send you (the disciple) and  when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, received ye the holy ghost.” (John.20:21-22)

Now, which account is correct? You don’t have to be an academic to recognize that.

tnc



Greetings TNC,

I tried to answer this, but perhaps I did not do so clearly.
The verse that you are quoting was from when Jesus was with his Apostle's after He had been resurrected.  He had gone.

Do I even find it confusing?  Yes.  But I do not expect to understand all that is God.  Jesus had gone, and returned, that is all that I know.  The Apostle's (who were many) testified to His return, and the events of His return, and of His ascending.

Salaam,
Caringheart

[notes:  Do you ever wonder about the Ka'aba transporting itself to Jerusalem?   Do you believe a rock tried to go with Muhammad to heaven?  Do these things make sense?]

Peace to you Caringheart,

It must confuse for you because you don’t want to accept the truth. I have established above that the Creator is God Almighty; and the Spirit (Ruh) and Jesus (S) is God’s creations.

Jesus (S) A FAITHFUL witness back there in the beginning:

“John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from “HIM” which is, and which was, and which is to come; “AND” FROM THE SEVEN SPIRITS WHICH ARE BEFORE HIS THRONE; V.5 “AND” from Jesus Christ, WHO IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS…” Rev.1: 4-5

  As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty: GRACE BE UNTO YOU, AND PEACE, FROM ‘HIM’ WHICH IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME”;

then the seven Spirits which is before the throne: “AND FROM THE SEVEN SPIRITS WHICH ARE BEFORE HIS THRONE;

and then Jesus Christ who is a Faithfull witness: “AND FROM JESUS CHRIST, WHO IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS”.

If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty. So the One, which is, which was and which is to come is “GOD ALMIGHTY” because God Almighty existed as he is, He was here when Adam was created on earth; and is yet to come in the end. In Rev. 1: 8 mentioned that! He is the ALMIGHTY:

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY. Rev.1:8 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.  Rev.4:11

The seven spirits were before the ALMIGHTY GOD’S THRONE and JESUS (S) WAS A “FAITHFUL WITNESS”.

tnc


LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
IP IP Logged
truthnowcome
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 April 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 788
Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 26 October 2012 at 8:10pm
<>

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by truthnowcome

...as my father hath sent me, even so I send you (the disciple) and  when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, received ye the holy ghost.” (John.20:21-22)

Now, which account is correct? You don’t have to be an academic to recognize that.

tnc



Greetings TNC,

I tried to answer this, but perhaps I did not do so clearly.
The verse that you are quoting was from when Jesus was with his Apostle's after He had been resurrected.  He had gone.

Do I even find it confusing?  Yes.  But I do not expect to understand all that is God.  Jesus had gone, and returned, that is all that I know.  The Apostle's (who were many) testified to His return, and the events of His return, and of His ascending.
Well, it seems to me you don’t know anything at all! You just guessing!

Let me show you what you need to know:

 

In the N.T. in John 16:16 (KJV) Jesus (s) told his disciples:

 

A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.John 16:16 (KJV)

In the “New International Version” they remove part of the verse “because I go to the Father”

"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me." John16 

 You see that! They remove this last part of the verse because I go to the Father. WHY? They knew the implication that is why they removed it! “going to the father” Christians understand it to mean “the death and resurrection”.

Let us read it in context, Jesus (S) said:

“…A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.” John 16 (KJV)  
 

Then some of the disciples were enquiring what he meant:

17Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, “Because I go to the Father?”
 18They said therefore, “What is this that he saith” A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.

Now, Jesus (S) explained: 

19Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, “A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?”

 In V.20to 32, Christians understood it to mean “the death and resurrection”. So, when he said:Because I go to the Father” that is referring to his death. It read as follows:

20Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

 21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

22And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.  

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

 33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Which “hour” he is talking? The “hour” of “going to the Father”

  In that chapter, Christians understand “Because I go to the Father” to mean “the death and resurrection”. We Muslims understand it to mean the sign that was promised to the Jews when he said:

“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the wale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”. Matt.12:40

Did Jonas die in the wale belly? No! He [Jesus (S)] went to Geth-sem-a-ne and pray asking God Almighty to change the situation.

And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. And prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will. Matt.26:35-39

Notice, he fell on his face and PRAYING to his God asking him to change the situation? Yes! And what happen next? His God send an angel to help him.

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (Luke 22:43)

Another point, he said: “My soul” and not “flesh”, not his human side “flesh” but his spiritual side “soul.” His soul was exceeding sorrowful even unto death, he fears death. Which God will fear death? According to the writings of the bible, The Father God was in him and with him in the same John 16: verse 32 and also john14:10.

Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am “not alone,” because the Father is “with me”. (John 16: 32)

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (John 14:10) 

If the Father is “with him and in him”, what is the purpose of “sending an angel?” Do angels strengthen God? Or why the angel has to strengthen Jesus (S) when all power was given unto him?

"...All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)

The angel was assuring him what is going to happen. Did God Almighty answer his prayers? Let us examine what Jesus (S) has to say because all the disciples fled from the scene.

And they all forsook him and fled. (Mark 14:50)

 

AFTER THE SUPPOSE CRUCIFIXION:

And when she (Mary Magdalene) had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and she knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener... (John 20:14-15)

  Mary knew Jesus (S) all through his ministry and within a day and a half she did not recognize him, she took him for a gardener, why? Is it another man “the gardener” God Almighty substitute instead of Jesus (S) and place a spirit (Rooh) upon him to act as Jesus (S)? I suppose, if a Christians saw the so call photo of Jesus (s) now and after twenty years they would recognize it, is that a fact? O Yes! Even the disciples did not know him:

“…But the disciples knew him not that it was Jesus.” John 21:4

Why? Because it was not him! Qur’an conforms that:

But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture… (Q.4:157)

   Mary didn’t recognize him nether the Disciples. As the Qur’an rightly said: “There are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge”

Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme... (Q.3:55)

  The question is when did it happen? Is it possible when Jesus was at Gethsemane, because all the disciples were asleep which also indicate it was night too (see Matt.26:40) and that is where they laid hold on him (the supposed Jesus the Gardiner) Matt.26:57. May be, Allah (S) has placed a Spirit (Rooh) on him (the gardener) to act as Jesus (S). Of course, it was night and no one had that in mind [that Allah (S) will replace him with another man “the gardener” who Mary recognizes as. 

  Allah (S) said:

“And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planner is Allah! (Q.3:54)

   To be more certain it is not Jesus (S) we can look at the accounts of John when they were about to capture him:

   It is mentioned in John 18:1-8

V1When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with the disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a “GARDEN,” into which he entered, and his disciples.

V.3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

V.4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye?

V.5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

V.6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, the went backward, and fell on the ground.

V.7 Then ask he them again, whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

V.8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way.

  There you can see how Christians miss the boat. They did see that his enemy didn’t “recognize” the man to be Jesus (S).

 They were asking for Jesus of Nazareth, Why? Because he was not there! V.4 says that: “Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye?”  Think about it, Jesus was asking them “whom seek ye?” and what they said? V.5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth.” why? Because they didn’t recognize him as Jesus (S) and he was just in front of them, and the suppose Jesus “the gardener” according to Mary in John 20:15 where she supposing him to be the gardener said: “I am he”. And what happen after that? V.6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell on the ground. Why? They were shock to know that they man whom they were looking for was right in front of them and they fall back, because they didn’t recognize him. AGAIN when he asks them in Verse7 they insisted “Jesus of Nazareth” why again? Because they didn’t recognize him to be Jesus (S), but the supposed Jesus the gardener insisted “I am he,” and in V. 8 he said: “I have told you that I am he more emphasis add here, why? Because they didn’t recognize him as Jesus (S), and also where they caught him? In the “garden,” and what Mary said? “She supposes him to be the gardener.” Coincident!

 You see! He look like a “gardener” and was caught in the “garden”, And they didn’t “recognize” him. It was not him!

 

I've established that:

 

1- Mary didn't RECONIZE HIM, Why?

2- The Disciples didn't RECONIZE HIM, Why?

3- And also when Judas and his band went to capture him they didn't RECONOZE HIM, Why?

4- They captured him in the GARDEN,

5- And Mary took him for a GARDENER.

 And Allah (S) said:

“That the rejected Faith; That they utter against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him (Jesus) before his death; And on the Day of Judgment he (Jesus) will be a witness against them.” (Q.4:156-159)

  to be continue...
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
IP IP Logged
truthnowcome
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 April 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 788
Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 26 October 2012 at 8:14pm
<>

Now the answer to your contention:

Jesus said unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and said unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus said unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God. ( John 20:16-17 KJV)

 Remember he told the disciples:

“A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.” (John 16:16)

 And Christians understand it to mean that, he will die and resurrect; But the suppose Jesus is telling Mary he did not go to the father (died) as yet but go and tell them he did, “I ascend ” all ready died. 

 

But the Devil is quick to draw the vial over your eyes in changing “I ascend” to “I will go”, I am returning. See other translations and compare it with the KJV. That is wher you got your idea from:

Allah (S) said:

For of a surety they killed him not. (Q.4:157)

Now, please don’t tell me that he was going up in the sky because he was speaking to Mary on the earth and he said, “Say unto them, I ascend unto my Father.” He was just there in front of her.  

 Paul testified that Jesus (S) did not die:

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God Almighty) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7)

 To what extend he prayed? He said:

“…My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death... And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. And prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will.” (Matt.26:28-29)

  Also in Luke22:44

“And being in agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweet was, as it were, great drop of blood falling to the ground. Luke22:44

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (Luke 22:43)

The angel assured him that God Almighty has answered his prayers:

The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (James 5:16)

You see that! Paul knew, that why he confessed:

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God Almighty) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7)

He knew the truth, he confesses that he lied:

He said: “If the truth of God is more abundant in my lies why should I call a sinner?”

In other words, if he tells some lies to bring people to God he should no call a sinner.

  Even some of the Jews knew that he didn’t died, but what they did not know is that, he was the suppose Jesus the gardener. Read for yourself:

62“Now the next day… the chief priest and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

64Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: So the LAST ERROR SHALL BE WORSE THAN THE FIRST (Matt.27:62-64

  They are talking about FIRST ERROR and LAST ERROR. What is the first error? They knew that they didn’t kill the suppose Jesus.

  Jesus, interestingly, told the Pharisees too:

“go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice” [Matthew 9:13].

 We all agree that Jesus Christ (S) was a righteous and a pious man and the O.T. says that the wicked will take his place: “In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared" [Psalm 9:16],

 

"The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, And the treacherous is in the place of the upright” [Proverbs 21:18],

 

and "The righteous is delivered from trouble, But the wicked takes his place" [Proverbs 11:8].

Who say that? The God of theof the Jews!

  Last point, what is a resurrected body? Let Jesus tells us:

“…For they are equal unto the angels,” Luke 20:27-27

 Meaning, that they will be Angelised, they will be Spiritualized, they will be Spirit! As to regards the suppose Jesus:

“Behold my hand and feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see: for a SPIRIT has no flesh and bone, as you see me have. (Luke 24:39-40)

If Christ be not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain. (I Corinthians15:14) <>

So your Idea of “gone to the father and return” has no weight. Again, If the disciples received the Holy Spirit before Jesus (S) left then why he laid the “condition” that “he first have to go to the Father then the Comforter will come”? The answer is, you don’t know it is a mystery for you.

tnc



Edited by truthnowcome - 26 October 2012 at 8:22pm
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
IP IP Logged
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1989
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 26 October 2012 at 10:02pm
Peace to you too TNC,
I told you at the outset that I have never been able to explain the Trinity to any Muslim, and that is ok.  I've shared with you what I could.  I see no point in argument.
I know, what I know, what I know,
for it is revealed through Jesus,
and I know that you do not accept it,
and I accept that.

Did you skip over the notes I left at the bottom of my post?
I would be interested in your reply to that, and your explanation.
Caringheart
IP IP Logged
truthnowcome
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 April 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 788
Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 28 October 2012 at 8:40pm
Peace my friend.

Concerning your note, I never heard of any such thing, but of the rock there are reports of Jinn speak true images (Idol). We were told the children of Israel worship the calf because it MOO!

 tnc
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
IP IP Logged
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1989
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 28 October 2012 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

Peace my friend.

Concerning your note, I never heard of any such thing, but of the rock there are reports of Jinn speak true images (Idol). We were told the children of Israel worship the calf because it MOO!

 tnc


Greetings TNC,

It is apparently part of Islamic teaching that the Ka'aba will be transported to Jerusalem when the Mahdi comes.

Apparently there is a rock in Jerusalem that the Muslim pilgrims try to touch because it is said to have the handprint of Muhammad in it where it clung to Muhammad wanting to go with him when he left this earth.

Just something I saw when watching a program on Jerusalem and the people that go on pilgrimage to that place.  The sacredness to the three Abrahamic faiths.

Salaam,
CH Smile
IP IP Logged
honeto
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 March 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2397
Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2012 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Peace to you too TNC,I told you at the outset that I have never been able to explain the Trinity to any Muslim, and that is ok.  I've shared with you what I could.  I see no point in argument.I know, what I know, what I know,for it is revealed through Jesus,and I know that you do not accept it, and I accept that.Did you skip over the notes I left at the bottom of my post?I would be interested in your reply to that, and your explanation.Caringheart


Caringheart,
why would one (you) then preach something you are unable to even explain, let alone to understand?
You can only explain something you know and understand.
Don't you know what you believe? or you just do it because you saw others do it jsut because they saw others do it and so on.
TNC has laid out a pretty clear evidence in front of you from your own scripture. He did a lot of hard work, and may God Almihghty reward him for that, to show you something that makes sense and showed you the truth of the matter. I hope you quit using excuses or changing subjects rather benefit from truth revealed to you. Do not trun your back to the truth. Remember it is only the truth that will truly give you direction, God loves truth only.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
IP IP Logged
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1989
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 29 October 2012 at 8:21pm
Hasan,
Because people keep asking, I try to explain but they must be enlightened by the Holy spirit to receive the message, and I do not control that.
salaam

Who is it that (really) twists the words of others?
I have never done this with anything you have had to say.
'let those with eyes to see, see'
__________________________

“If you keep to my teaching 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” - the words of Jesus


[note:  if you haven't noticed TNC and I are ok with each other.  That is called respect.  He has his belief and I accept that.  I have mine.  I hope he accepts that.  Not being able to explain it to one another does not diminish the belief of either one of us.]


Edited by Caringheart - 30 October 2012 at 6:19am
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 8 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com